I've been learning bass on my own for less than a year and am going to begin to take lessons very soon. There are no jazz teachers available to me; only classical. Although I am only interested in playing jazz (pizz), I think it is probably better to study with a classical teacher anyways. This is because I'm not looking for someone to tell me which notes to play, but rather how to play them most effectively (proper body mechanics and technique) and I assume that a classical teacher is likely the best for that. However, I really have no interest at all in arco playing. And seeing as arco technique seems to be fairly deep and demanding, it would be a drain on my time and energy to learn. Is it possible to go about studying bass from a classical teacher without learning arco? Are there advantages to learning arco for my overall playing development that will make it worth doing despite my lack of interest?

Yes, it's possible to study from a classical teacher without playing arco, but you have to find an openminded teacher. I've been fortunate enough to have two, and I don't even own a bow. The course of study has still been in classical materials in my case - Simandl and Rabbath. I've found both enormously helpful.

Soon, a group of grumpy bassists with bows are going to descend into this thread and rag us both mercilessly: you, for asking the question, and me, for being a living example of one type of answer to said question. We can but accept their curmudgeonly derision, as they're probably right.

But yes, it's possible.

I've been playing DB for less than a year and I'm going to begin studying with a teacher very soon. I'm really only interested in playing jazz (pizz), but I will be studying with a classical teacher because that is all that is available to me and I also assume that a classical teacher can help me to develop the best technique. I really have no interest in arco, and seeing as learning it is likely very challenging and time consuming I'm turned off by the idea of spending time and energy on it that could be used working on other areas that directly interest me.

Is it possible to study with a classical teacher without doing arco?

Are there significant advantages to learning arco for my general playing development that would make it worthwhile anyways?

Seeing as I don't want to devote lots of time to arco, is there a difference in ease of learning between the german and french bow? Would one require me to devote less time?

I have a nearly new bass and the bow has been abslolute tremendous influence on the "opening up" of this instrument. Just bowing open strings "slow and low" has an impact. $50.00 glass bow works ok.
Plus, it just sounds so big. To me, playing just pizz or just arco is like buying a convertible and never putting the top down.

Aside from Chris, by the way, my wife, my dog and my teacher's neighbors also subscribe to the pizz only approach.

Even if you study w/ a classical teacher I suggest you consider "Ray Brown's Bass Method". It should be readily available. If, by some simple twist of fate, you end up sounding like HIM, just roll with it.

Seeing as Chris has already replied in the bow section of the forum, I'll address the only extra portion you have here - I think the German bow in general is a little easier on the hand if you're just starting. I'm not saying it's easy to pick up, but it just might be a little bit more natural.

Having said that - you might really want to give arco playing a chance and go in with an open mind. Learning to bow is difficult enough without feeling reluctant about it. I actually picked up the bass because I wanted to play jazz - but now I only play classical because the sound of a bowed bass is just gorgeous!

Now to wait for the threads to merge.

Arco often exposes your intonation faults much more than pizz does, and for that reason is a good practice aid. I would think any teacher would let you influence the lesson goals, but arco is a worthwhile skill, and you ought to at least get a taste.

May I suggest (without being a curmudgeon) that you rethink your approach? (You too, DURRL) Like Bob said, the only real way to get your intonation together is with a bow. Plus, once you've heard a really good jazz player with a bow (Lynn Seaton, Christian McBride, Chambers, etc, etc) you'll realize how much music there is to be made with one.


Come on in, PIZZ FITSHEROLD, the water's fine. ;)

I have two teachers - one for jazz and one for classical. I'm amazed at how little the classical teacher knows about jazz. He doesn't know how to get a good pizz sound, he doesn't know how to walk, he doesn't know how to improvise, he doesn't know any of the great jazz bassists... need I go on.

I find that the classical teacher teaches me amazing things about the bow and about interpreting written classical music. Using a bow makes pizz seem easy. As other have said, the bow builds intonation and opens you up to other sounds in the instrument. I can't recommend it enough.


however, if you want to study jazz and walk bass lines, you won't get it from a classical teacher unless he is very unusual.

Good luck!

Your intonation will be a lot better if you practice with a bow. Also, you might discover that you actually dig it. I wasn't interested in arco at all until after I experienced what it's really like to play it.

Lin

I started DB with the intent that I would only play jazz and therefore only pizz. Bottom line for me now is:

Arco will improve your left hand technique much quicker including your sound and your endurance.

IMHO jazz arco is great

As Bob said, arco will reveal deficiencies in your left hand very quickly but also if you listen to some pizz players with not so great sound and technique, you can guess that they never play arco.

Adrian

Arco is also a good way to develop a practice regimine, I have found. Since even the easiest passages are difficult with the bow, it forces you to play things much slower (at least at first) which develops intonation and left hand strength. The right hand also get a huge workout, and I haven't noticed any diminshment in my pizz right hand technique even though I have been practicing almost solely with the bow of late. As long as you keep improvisational exercises and listening drills in your regimine, you won't be wasting your time, even if your intention is to never perform with a bow.

Originally posted by lin fung
Are there advantages to learning arco for my overall playing development that will make it worth doing despite my lack of interest?
If your goal is just to be a jazz bass player, you certainly can travel a long road without using the bow.

I respectfully suggest that your goal is to become a musician who focuses on the bass, and on jazz music. Any musical endeavor which broadens your ears will have a positive effect on your jazz playing.

Seeing as arco technique seems to be fairly deep and demanding, it would be a drain on my time and energy to learn.
This is a slippery slope. Learning to play bossas or fast tempos or 3/4 or thumb position or free improvisation may be deep and demanding, but you have to do it to master the instrument and the music. Besides, what is difficult for some may be easy for you: You may be, or may become, a natural on the bow.

I've been playing db for about 12 years and just now really practicing arco. I can tell you that it does make a huge difference in terms of helping develop better intonation.

I can also tell you that in my case, I could not enjoy or even tollerate practicing arco until I listened to arco music that I really liked.

Once I started getting some arco music in my head, I then really wanted to do it and now I enjoy practicing it.

I would listen to some good bow players and see if it inspires you. I started listening to Edgar Meyer about 15 years ago and as is albums became more arco prominant, so did my interest.

If you're not an avid fan of classical music, you might want to start with some of Edgar's earlier stuff (unfolding, Dreams of Flight, Love of a Lifetime) or some of the more bluegrass influenced stuff like Appalacian Journey or Long Trip Home)

Actually, I think a thread on non classical arco music would be cool if it doesn't already exist.

Dave

Originally posted by KLAMBAKE
Seeing as Chris has already replied in the bow section of the forum.........
Now to wait for the threads to merge.


Whoops! I missed this one somehow. Anyway, threads merged. Hey, BIG FUN, this is a good topic for a thread...are you going to come back and visit it some time?

I find that for jazz, it is so important to spend sufficient time trying to find one's own best individual "sound" in pizzicato playing. The majority of method books on bass are all focused on the left hand or on bowing. Even the important method books of Ray Brown and Rufus Reid spend little, if any attention to describing how to obtain the most beautiful and swinging pizzicato sound for jazz playing. The biggest problem is that it is not a simple action of plucking the string in the place that you find to be the most comfortable. It is rather an issue of location on the string for pulling the string, the manner of pulling the string, how you hold down the left fingers for the notes, how long you hold down the left hand fingers on the notes, how you approach playing the "E" string so that it sounds even and consistent with the other 3 strings, how you pull the string so that it vibrates sideways rather than vertically, and so many other factors.

From listening to the best jazz players and comparing their sound with many others, as well as my own, it seems that a key factor is to have a beautiful pizzicato sound with wonderful sustain, even when you are playing fast, swinging lines. Think of Ray Brown, Paul Chambers, Rufus Reid, or others of that level. Hence, there should be jazz method books with pages and pages on description and exercises for developing a pizzicato sound that is large, warm, acoustic sounding even when amplified, with wonderful long, sustaining tones. In Ray Brown's instructional videotape, he stresses working on "getting a good sound out of the instrument", "playing in tune", "playing with good time," and "giving each note its full value."

Of course, everyone, including my teacher, stresses practicing with the bow to improve intonation, since you can hear the notes so much more clearly with the bow than pizzicato. However, a great deal of time needs to be spent developing a good pizzicato sound, when practice time is always so limited.:(

Originally posted by David Abrams
However, a great deal of time needs to be spent developing a good pizzicato sound, when practice time is always so limited.:(
You want sustain? You want left hand strength?
Practice arco.

You MUST play arco if you are going to play bass!

LM
Curmudgeon

If the sound you make makes you happy then you have achieved what is important.

Hi-
I too fell in love with the arco sound after I thought I'd only play Pizz. It took a long time to get a decent tone though and I'm still working on it. Even if you don't use it on gigs, it still helps to practice with it. Once I realized the benefits of practicing with the bow, I got serious with it pretty quickly. Even if you still think you aren't going to play a lot of arco, at least practice your scales 3 octaves with the bow, and play long tones as a start to your practice routine. As others have said, it will help a lot.
-Del

I was wondering if you are learning jazz or not. If you are I think it would be a shame to rob yourself of great solos by Slam Stewart, Paul Chambers, Charles Mingus, Dave Holland etc. Not to mention the impact it has on intonation and solid postioning on the fingerboard, which incidentally is also elemental to intonation. Also how old is your bass?
Playing arco harmonics really helps to open up the sound of a new bass, even a plywood one. Playing arco does not mean you are doomed to a life of orchestral reportoire, but the fundamentals involved in classical bow technique are IMHO essential to becoming a well rounded player. If you decide not to I guess you can succeed and become as out of tune as Michael Formanek! Just my two cents. Feel free to slam me for my dislike of Michael Formanek.

Originally posted by koricancowboy
If you decide not to I guess you can succeed and become as out of tune as Michael Formanek! Just my two cents. Feel free to slam me for my dislike of Michael Formanek.

I have him on the Fred Hersch trio record "Heartsongs", and don't hear anything wrong with his intonation.

I see absolutely no problem in being an "arco - less player"
It sounds as if some people think you have no right to play the instrument unless you can bow!
I love playing with the bow and went through a stage where I was bowing alot of solos...trying to get that horn like sound. I can't find the combination of strings that allow me to bow and at the same time, get the pizz. sound I want, so out went the bow.

In response to Chris about Michael Formanek: I was too a huge fan of him but got the opportunity to see him live and was appalled with his intonation. i thought maybe he was having an off night or something, so I went to see him again. That time he was worse. It was quite a dissapointment as at the time he was quite an influence on me. Especially his work with Time Berne's Bloodcount. I will however say his sense of time and rhythm are a sight to behold.

I know he does not practice arco after having a conversation with him. I have found that 99% of the bassists I have spoken to who don't practice arco have questionable intonation. Having said that I do realize intonation is one of the eternal battles for double bassists. When I first started I too did not play arco. My intonation has improved 500% since I decided to start.

I find that a lot of pizz only players also use a lot of amplification. This coupled with the fact the thi pizz sound as beautiful as it is, can really cover up microtones thus allowing the player to believe he/she is in tune. I think it is quite a wake up call when said playr bows the string and finds that 10 cents sharp or flat really does make a difference.

I think another point is solid positioning. In order to get a good tone out of a bowed bass positioning is crucial. I just feel that it is a shame to decide to rob yourself of one of the wonderful tools available to you with the bow.

As a reference please check out the bassists Fernando Grillo, Stefano Scoddanibbio, Joelle Leandre, Barry Guy, Peter Kowald, Barre Phillips, John Lindberg and the host of others who have not only mastered their bow but have succeeded in radically transfoeming waht we expect the bass's role and sonic palette is.

I guess I am just a bow nazi and that is my two cents.

Having said that the reality of it is we play because it enhances our lives in whatever way. The bass chooses us and not the other way around. Whatever relationship we have with the bass is intimate and I heartily respect. I am just an advocate of advancing the instrument so it does not once agin fall into obscurity.

At any rate happy playing and lucky you for having bass enter your life.

Cowboy,

I don't know about percentages, but my take on the arco/intonation issue is that players who are going to play in tune will play in tune, and those who are not won't. I know several "arcoless" players with great intonation and quite a few arco players whose intonation blows chunks. I can't tell from Paul W's response whether he still does any arco playing, but his intonation is great. I consider my own intonation to be okay, and where it could be better I can usually pinpoint the issue to my not HEARING what I was trying to play well enough, or to making an unfamiliar leap on the same string while improvising. (You can hear a bunch of Talkbass players by following the links in the "sampler" thread...I don't know if I'm the only "arcoless" player on there or not). Suffice it to say, I strongly believe that good intonation can be had without arco practice if the player in question listens intently enough to what he/she is hearing and playing. YMMV.

Originally posted by David Abrams
The biggest problem is that it is not a simple action of plucking the string in the place that you find to be the most comfortable. It is rather an issue of location on the string for pulling the string, the manner of pulling the string, how you hold down the left fingers for the notes, how long you hold down the left hand fingers on the notes, how you approach playing the "E" string so that it sounds even and consistent with the other 3 strings, how you pull the string so that it vibrates sideways rather than vertically, and so many other factors.Are there any books, videos (aside from Ray's), threads here, or any information anywhere that address these issues in depth?

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
Cowboy,

YMMV.

First of all as I don't really know to much web lingo I'd like to inquire as to what exactly that means.

Second of all I may be an arco nazi but I have to give my best regards to linoleum fungus for playing the bass anyway.

In reality I am just glad there is another person who wants to play this noble instrument anyway.

Lin Fung, whatever route you choose best of luck on your endeavours and just please find a teacher.

A teacher will prevent you from injury. I hate to see players who start only to be forced to stop playing because of improper technique. I attached a picture as example.

Feel free to slam me for my dislike of this bassist too.:D

Originally posted by koricancowboy
First of all as I don't really know to much web lingo I'd like to inquire as to what exactly that means.Your mileage may vary.

I hate to see players who start only to be forced to stop playing because of improper technique. I attached a picture as example.Charlie Haden is an example of someone who continues to play and get a great sound DESPITE "improper" or unconventional technique. So was Dizzy Gillespie. I'm not condoning it, either.

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
Cowboy,
I can't tell from Paul W's response whether he still does any arco playing, but his intonation is great. I consider my own intonation to be okay. YMMV.

I don't do any bowing at all anymore.
Chris' intonation is impeccable. To say that arco helps your intonation is very true. To say that you can't achive great intonation without being able to bow is ludicrous!
As Chris said, you can check our intonation by going to Recordings/TBDB sampler.
I'm not going to start listing a BUNCH of bassists who have excellent intonation and have done it all with no help from the bow.
As I said, I love playing with the bow, but I found the frustration of finding the right Pizz/Arco strings too much to deal with for very little pay-back.

I decided to come back in and edit my post here.
Some times we get in the habit of forgetting the the questions and ideas of the original thread.
Lin, I consider myself a double bass purist. With this as one of my original inclusions, besides playing, repairing, selling, collecting etc, I would be remiss in not including the art of arco in my total commitment to the double bass.
I suggest you do include the bow in your total playing picture. Some can do without , but do everything you can to make sure!

For about the last two months I've been working with the bow. In my practice routine, it's got the most time right now.

I think Chris and Paul are absolutely correct: it's not necessary to learn the bow to play in tune. What I've discovered -- and it's pretty damn obvious -- is that arco simply makes it easier to hear pitch. The note sounds longer and it's rich with overtones.

It's like putting your intonation under a high res scanner and having a close-up look at it. Sure, you can do without, but I'm pissed at myself for not doing this years ago.

I'll give just one recent example of how much difference arco playing can make in your perception of your own ability to play in tune.

I was recently struggling through a D minor etude from Simandel (I know I probably spelled that wrong) - I had trouble with my intonation.

Then after the lesson wrapped up, I ran through the study again without the bow - it sounded really quite respectable. Silly me, I thought that perhaps I was just more relaxed since the lesson was over. So I tried it again with the bow.

Well...let's just say I still have alot of work to do.

lin fung

When my teacher's students get to a certain point in the book, he gives them the option of dropping the bow and continuing the method pizz only. He told me that while many of his students start out certain that they'll dump the stick at the first opportunity, only a few have taken the 'pizz only' road.

I started out certain that I'd want to drop the bow. Now I'm two pages away from the decision point and I can't imagine continuing without it.

Originally posted by koricancowboy
I find that a lot of pizz only players also use a lot of amplification. This coupled with the fact the thi pizz sound as beautiful as it is, can really cover up microtones thus allowing the player to believe he/she is in tune. I think it is quite a wake up call when said playr bows the string and finds that 10 cents sharp or flat really does make a difference.



I've read this a few times now and it just doesn't make any logical sense to me and I tend to agree more with Chris and Paul when he says "To say that you can't achieve great intonation without being able to bow is ludicrous!"


So "koricancowboy" says that the player will get a wake-up call when they take up the bow - but what about if you are a comitted life-long Jazz player who is never going to take up the bow, never going to play unamplified - then why does it matter?

Surely all that matters is that the other musicians and the audience like what they hear -and whether a individual note is microtonally "out", is entirely irrelevant?

So - what is important is that somebody like Charlie Haden makes great music and people buy his albums, go along to his concerts, want to play with him etc. - I own several albums where he plays/writes/arranges and would be very proud to have made such great music and couldn't care less about any minor "eccentricities" of technique!!

Surely there is a point where technique for its own sake, is just a waste of time - if nobody can hear the difference!!

Not Quite Posted By Bruce
I've never tried to play with a bow, but this doesn't make any logical sense to me.
As our Moderator Emeritus, Donosaurus, once remarked, "Res ipsa loquitur."

That's why I was very careful to say in my post that it didn't make any logical sense - as in "does not compute"!! ;)

Also, I was asking the question in my second two paragraphs - I am happy to admit I know nothing about bowing,although it was Chris F who said he didn't use a bow, but surely there has to be some logic applied to any situation?

I've been through this thread again, and I've found only one guy (LM Bass -- a Vancouver Symphony Orchestra player, if I'm not mistaken) who says you HAVE to do arco. PacMan got close when he interpreted A.H. Bob as saying you need to do arco to get your tuning together. Everyone else is saying some variation of "it's a good thing to do because: 1) it can really help with developing intonation accuracy; 2) it can really help with left hand strength; and, 3) it can really help with getting sustain."

Nobody has said, Bruce, that you can't be a good double bass player -- jazz or otherwise -- without arco.

I am one of those who thought for the longest time I would never need it. Then I gave it a good effort over a couple of months and -- as I said -- I'm pissed at myself for not doing this years ago. You have to be willing to go through a phase of sounding quite bad -- that should tell you something...

Post-posting note: As for the "what does it matter if I'm a dedicated jazz player who'll never use the bow?" Well, of course we all make our musical decisions, aesthetic decisions about what sounds Good and Pleasant and Right. I just recall doing some Paul Chambers transcriptions recently where I slowed down the tempos without altering pitch. What was really interesting was how much PC still swung at with that synthetically slow tempo. The other interesting thing was how seriously out of tune he was. As great as he was -- and he was seriously GREAT -- he would have been better with more work at intonation.

I'm no intonation freak. Just yesterday I was digging the hell out of Milt Hinton demo-ing his slap stylings to Marion McPartland. He was wayyyy out of tune on a lot of it, but the whole thing was so stylin' that it didn't matter.

My opinions only. Yours will vary, I'm sure.

Originally posted by Damon Rondeau
Nobody has said, Bruce, that you can't be a good double bass player -- jazz or otherwise -- without arco.


Well I quoted the part I was taking issue with in my post - so just to be clear, I'll do it again :


korican cowboy said :

"This coupled with the fact the pizz sound as beautiful as it is, can really cover up microtones thus allowing the player to believe he/she is in tune. I think it is quite a wake up call when said playr bows the string and finds that 10 cents sharp or flat really does make a difference."

This was what I was taking issue with - it makes no logical sense to me - this is what I was questioning - not any other part of the thread or any general point!!

I see, Bruce. Sorry for leaping, etc. -- as always, e-mail communication is kludgy.

I'd just like to comment that cowboy's comments aren't too outrageous. Have you tried the bowing thing, Bruce? It's dead apparent to the pizz-only player that something different is going on with intonation and the bow. Play something you know well in pizz and it sounds as you'd expect. Play it arco and it sounds like crap, tuning-wise. Why? I'm not the one to bring it, but I'm sure there is a logical explanation for this well-known phenomenon. It's definitely there.

Originally posted by Damon Rondeau
I see, Bruce. Sorry for leaping, etc. -- as always, e-mail communication is kludgy.

I'd just like to comment that cowboy's comments aren't too outrageous. Have you tried the bowing thing, Bruce? It's dead apparent to the pizz-only player that something different is going on with intonation and the bow. Play something you know well in pizz and it sounds as you'd expect. Play it arco and it sounds like crap, tuning-wise. Why? I'm not the one to bring it, but I'm sure there is a logical explanation for this well-known phenomenon. It's definitely there.

I can quite believe that - BUT - my point was - if you are certain that you are a life-long committed Jazz player who is always going to play pizz at gigs - why does this matter?

That was my point and why I said it was a question of logic.

I quite agree -- if that's your choice, it matters not at all. Sounds a lot like my choice to go it without a teacher for about 20 years: I wish I hadn't!

IMO, ideally a bassist should make the arco choice from a position of experience -- a la Monsieur Warburton -- and not because he thinks he'll never need it.

Amongst other things, I'm getting off at being LOUD for once! If I play long tones close to the bridge, I can almost drown out my metronome with volume. Can't even get close to that with pizz!

I can see both side of the argument - but I can also imagine the wrong decision as you say, will waste a lot of time - 10s of years!!

So - I could (in theory) take up DB, go away and practice my intonation with the bow for 10 years, always unhappy with the results.

Or I could be happy that intonation on pizz sounds OK to me, my teacher, the rest of the band, audiences etc. and make music for that 10 years!! :hmm:

Which would be the most productive use of my time....?

Ahh, so now it's an argument about risk management!

I say that, in the early years of learning, the player should cover off as many sources of the risk of bad playing as possible. In the early years, you don't really have a decent sense of what your personal tastes, strengths and weaknesses are.

Never put all your eggs into one basket unless you're 100% positive you hate eggs. Can't see how you'll make that decision unless you've given 'em a decent shot. You may just decide they are exactly the ticket...

On the other hand - if you have been to hundreds and hundreds of Jazz gigs over many years and hated the sound of virtually every arco bass solo you've every heard - no matter how good the player - but loved the plucked sound of almost every one - surely that's going to sway your decision? ;)

Can't see how you'll make that decision unless you've given 'em a decent shot. You may just decide they are exactly the ticket...

I think this is right on the money. These discussions (To arco or not to arco?) always have burst of posts that are highly passionate. I apologize if my post came off sounding aristocratic. In my case, it wasn't so much that I thought I needed arco to be a good jazz player, it was more that playing arco put the instrument in front of the idiom. At that point I decided not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Other people may decide to and there's nothing wrong with that.

You can can enumerate all of the great bass players who've been classically trained but you'll always run across exceptional player who's never picked up a bow in his/her life. It's kind of futile to go down this path.

Many years ago, I was in L.a. for a few things...one was to help my old friend Cal Tjader do some listening to some tapes we made in order to pick some cuts for a record we did. We took a break and I wandered down the hall of this sound studio and heard some of the WORST arco work i'd ever heard! It ended up being two bassists...Slam Stewart and Major Holley. For those who aren't aware of these guys....they both sing their bowed solos'...at least in this case, Major Holley in the same octave as what he's bowing and Slam, an octave above. The engineers had to separate the basses from the voices, so all I heard was the two basses being bowed without the singing voices to temper the sound and help cover all the scratching and BAD intonation. This sounded like two grizzly bears in heat! Actually, it didn't sound that good. The end result was edited and mixed into a passable record once they added the voices and pulled down the volume on the basses. This is a great example of what we're talking about here. This is not to put these guys down. Some of the most historic records were made by Art Tatum with Slam on bass...but without the vocals, look out!

Are you referring to a record called "Shut Yo' Mouth"? That was a... well, a curiosity, let's say. Brutal in places...

Since there is no harm at all in learning arco, why not?

Knowing a little bit about how to get a good bowed sound can only be a benefit. In the early stages of learning, I don't think it is going to be a great compromise of your time.

It is absolutely true that you can develop good intonation without playing arco. I never bowed a fretless EBG, but got it down eventually.

But I do think it is fair to say that you will gain better intonation more quickly if you practice arco as well as pizz. Especially if you have little overall musical experience.

Plus, it is wonderful for your instrument.

I know I'm going to get some flames for this, but what the heck. :hiding:

I've posted in other threads that (yes I'm a noob) I'm getting my intonation down by putting myself up against a chromatic tuner (yes I'm playing pizz only). Now before you start saying that I'm cheating or something let me explain how I do it.

I find myself practicing over scales really slowly so I can hear relative pitches against open strings. This seems to work quite well. I focus on 2 or 3 notes at a time in the scale, and try to get as close as I can on the tuner. I focus not so much on where my LH is, but more on the tone I'm getting. I restrain from wiggling, because that's cheating to me - I'm not hitting it on the first try. The tuner will tell me if it's not a clean tone because it'll fluctuate if it isn't. If it's done right, it seems like the tone is pretty, the bass resonates at a pleasing vibe, and when I look at the tuner, I see it dead on. If it's not right, it's off in those senses and there seems to be a color if it's sharp or flat.

I've been doing this slowly for several weeks now and it seems to have some great results. Some questions:

1) Is this cheating? Or... is this even better because I'm forced to get as close to the perfect pitch as I can? Regardless if the bass is in tune or not?

2) What is "good intonation"? Is it always dead on 99% of the time, or maybe 5 cents off now and then? Even if you're bowing, what if you're off by 5 cents? Can you tell the difference?

Bowing would be fun, but my main intention is to play pizz. Right now it's just not affordable, especially after buying the bass making the mistake (or maybe it's not a mistake actually) of getting Labella Nylon wraps... I'll get to the bow once I can afford some obligato's too.

check this out:
http://www.thetuningcd.com/newpage1.htm

I'm not trying to plug the CD-it's the info that is cool.

You MUST play arco if you are going to play bass!
LM
Curmudgeon

Chris....your career is over! We better get ahold of Don Thompson and some of your other :crying: arco-less buddies!

Chris....your career is over! We better get ahold of Don Thompson and some of your other :crying: arco-less buddies!



Damn, just when I thought I was starting to get somewhere, too... :(

But Chris - I could swear you posted some time ago that you were giving the bow a go??

I was doing some slow scale exercises until my new full time university gig kicked into high gear. I may try again this summer. But I still maintain (and so does my teacher) that it's possible to be any level of pizz player possible without the use of a bow - it's more about your committment level and the sounds you're hearing. Thanks for asking, though. :)

I've been playing about 15 years. I play jazz, and it's 98% pizz, except for a few bars of arco on some ballads, etc. I would always work some classical playing in to my practice routine just to feel like a real bass player, though I am not even close (to playing classical well). Lately though, I have been doing jazz excercises with the bow, and wow. If you can understand how to swing hard with a bow, your pizz swing will really get solid. My goal is to have the guts to pull the bow out on some jazz solos by the end of the year. If you don't ever try it, you should. Just start swinging a few scales every day. Commit to it for a few weeks and see what happens. But don't be lazy. Use a metronome and make sure you're swinging hard. You will dig what happens.

Mr. Fitzgerald said:
"We can but accept their curmudgeonly derision, as they're probably right."

To which I playfully responded:
"You MUST play arco if you are going to play bass!
LM
Curmudgeon"

To which Mr. Fuqua said:
"Chris....your career is over! We better get ahold of Don Thompson and some of your other arco-less buddies"

To which I respectfully respond:
I am not worthy to pluck even one note on Mr. Thompson's bass!

I think my point on this is, if the fella has access to a classical teacher, why should he miss out on some great training? He can always hang the bow on the wall later. . . (For the record, I'm not a big fan of arco jazz solos either, except for P.C., Mingus here and there, Michael Moore, George Mraz, and more recently Dave Young. I almost never play arco jazz myself. On the classical end, I really love what Gary Karr, Joel Quarrington, Renaud Garcia-Fons, Edgar Meyer and many others can do with a bow). Why miss out?

snip...I think my point on this is, if the fella has access to a classical teacher, why should he miss out on some great training?...snip

I share your opinion. Don't worry too much about the polemics that's going on about this. A decent arco is very useful tool to make music with a DB. But it's hard to learn and it puts in evidence sloppy intonation, even to untrained ears. It requires dedicated practice and if the people you're playing with have no patience, they'll ask you to leave the bow at home. I feel lucky that my band mates were encouraging when I first pulled out the bow on ballads or intro to bossas. Now I use it in solos, often starting pizz and finishing arco. Practicing PC and Slam transcriptions from J Goldsby's book has been a great help. Finally, to use ChrisF argument on nowadays jazz gigs being often duos or trios, not only fluent soloing is a necessity, but arco playing is an asset. Nobody is forced to do it and you'll find lotsa good DB players who don't do it, but I don't understand the point of finding excuses.

Larry says:

I would always work some classical playing in to my practice routine just to feel like a real bass player

Oh come on now - you're not a real bass player at the moment or is this an inferiority complex - the only real players are always classical? Don't tell me the bass was designed to be bowed - the piz tradition goes back into the mists of folk music. I'm not sure all classical players find jazz piz a breeze if they don't practise it either.

and also says:

You will dig what happens

which is what precisely - you must be able to say what happened?

Olivier says:

its hard to learn ... it requires dedicated practise

which sound like good enough excuses for me for limited practise time.

I always do some arco practise but time is short. I feel this helps intonation, posture and balance of the bass (I play standing up), control of rh. I'm not sure about what it's adding to the quality of sound or swing. Because its not easy I just want to keep my hand in.

I was partly inspired one day by seeing Ngyuen Lee's (can't spell his name but I guess you'll know who I mean) bass player - wish I knew the name, who stood onstage with the bass neck slung over his shoulder by virtue of an enormous articulated spike. This put the bass in a cello like position. He played all bass lines piz and then all solos arco in thumb position, sounding not uncello like. He had amazing facility and I've never seen or hear of him again.

BTW, I find that for arco (using French) I prefer/need the bass a fraction (half a notch on my bass which doesn't do half notches) higher than piz.

If I have a wish, it's that people would approch piz with the rigour of learning of articulation and dynamics that the classical fraternity apply to arco. I think it is something most of us do without awareness. Hell, you might get threads in future about the advantages of learning piz for the arco player.

you must be able to say what happened

My answer to this is that you hear the instrument sing, and you learn to breath out the melodic lines like a singer or a horn player. It alows to appraoch to concept of articulation.

On the other hand ;) pizz definitely requires practise. Its good for RH and LH. For the record, I play without amp even in the jazz quintet, and at the moment I practise the prelude to Bach's 2nd cello suite both arco and pizz (trying to keep alternating my two RH fingers no matter which string is plucked).

I don't think that the segregation between jazz and classical musicians is that strong anymore, and also other tribes such as period or baroque music have emerged, accordion and djembé are now taught in conservatories (dulcimer or ukulele anybody ?), etc...

Good thing is that the DB allows for a lot of crossing-over between the various categories. Be happy.

Mr. Fitzgerald said:
"We can but accept their curmudgeonly derision, as they're probably right."
LMTo which I playfully responded:
"You MUST play arco if you are going to play bass!
LM
Curmudgeon"
To which Mr. Fuqua said:
"Chris....your career is over! We better get ahold of Don Thompson and some of your other arco-less buddies"
to which I respectfully respond:
I am not worthy to pluck even one note on Mr. Thompson's bass!

LM, the quote you quote was by myself Paul Warburton....not by Mr Fuqua. I had no way of knowing you were making it in a "playfully response.." manner. In fact I thought you were dead serious...I guess we just need to get to know each other better? And I had no intention of getting you to say you're not worthy.....And I can forgive you for becoming confused with the name thing around here...my brother bassists especially MR. Fitzgerald get thier kicks from messing with our names. We thank Mr. Fuqua for starting this initially.

My answer to this is that you hear the instrument sing, and you learn to breath out the melodic lines like a singer or a horn player. It alows to appraoch to concept of articulation.

On the other hand ;) pizz definitely requires practise. Its good for RH and LH. For the record, I play without amp even in the jazz quintet, and at the moment I practise the prelude to Bach's 2nd cello suite both arco and pizz (trying to keep alternating my two RH fingers no matter which string is plucked).

I don't think that the segregation between jazz and classical musicians is that strong anymore, and also other tribes such as period or baroque music have emerged, accordion and djembé are now taught in conservatories (dulcimer or ukulele anybody ?), etc...

Good thing is that the DB allows for a lot of crossing-over between the various categories. Be happy.

Excellent reply - lets see it again! :hyper:
... and anyone who plays acoustically gets my appreciation :)

..trying to keep alternating my two RH fingers no matter which string is plucked...

I don't think that the segregation between jazz and classical musicians is that strong anymore, and also other tribes such as period or baroque music have emerged, accordion and djembé are now taught in conservatories (dulcimer or ukulele anybody ?), etc...

I don't find any personal advantage to alternating fingers where rakes can be done. Rakes to me are an essential technical facet for the jazz bassist to master and deserve to be incorporated into scale/arpeggio woodshedding from the very beginning.

But I buy the jazz/classical boundary being pretty much vapor, or delusion, wholeheartedly. When did music itself ever begin to care about storage shelf categories?

As PER, I think we've exhausted this thread.
Have you heard Chris play? 'nuff said...as with all the arco less Great bassists, 'nuff said.

Hey all,

Paul, I was quoting Chris Fitgerald from reply #2. I pasted the comment below in its entirety, just for persnickityness.

I can understand you taking me seriously, as there were a few posts intervening between Chris' and mine. I really don't mean to offend the "no-stinking-arco-bass-for-me" camp, because I have been a card-carrying (but not bow carrying!) member of their fraternity. In fact I once left my bow in a whole other province for a few years! We've made up however, and I just LOVE my bow. . .

BTW I have heard Mr. Thompson (currently listening to him with Jim Hall and Terry Clark), and believe me, I am most unworthy!

I will not waste (more!) bandwidth by re-re-iterating my earlier curmudgeonly points. Now we can all get on with our plucking and/or scraping.
Ed dubbed me:
LMNOP


LINT FUNGUS,

Yes, it's possible to study from a classical teacher without playing arco, but you have to find an openminded teacher. I've been fortunate enough to have two, and I don't even own a bow. The course of study has still been in classical materials in my case - Simandl and Rabbath. I've found both enormously helpful.

Soon, a group of grumpy bassists with bows are going to descend into this thread and rag us both mercilessly: you, for asking the question, and me, for being a living example of one type of answer to said question. We can but accept their curmudgeonly derision, as they're probably right.

But yes, it's possible.

__________________
Wherever you go, there you are

I gotta ask though, if who you are studying with is someone who is well versed in arco technique, why not? I mean my teacher Joe has a lot going on arco wise, he was a student of Joe Levine's. But he also has the whole Lenny background. So I have a choice. But if all I had was the arco thing, what's the point of ignoring it? It's not like he's NOT teaching pizz to get arco, right?

If that's the only game in town, then that's what you play. And get to what you're missing when and where you can.

EDIT - that's what I get for rushing, Joe's teacher was Julius Levine, not Joe Levine.

I am a classical player, but also freelance from rock( yes on bass guitar) to jazz, & swing, whatever the gig requires, as all as it's bass..

What I find curious, is when jazz bassists talk about finding "their voice, tone, sound" expressing, themselves, on & on, all the while ignoring, or dismissing the most "expressive" element at their disposal... the bow! The almost unlimited "colors" of sound, dynamic qualities, and the pure singing properties one can accomplish with it are IMHO, simply amazing. I also think it is fear of sounding bad, making horrible sounds. I've heard it, in one form or another, from my students to fellow bassists. I at one time, even shared some of those same thoughts.

Dennis

What I find curious, is when jazz bassists talk about finding "their voice, tone, sound" expressing, themselves, on & on, all the while ignoring, or dismissing the most "expressive" element at their disposal... the bow! The almost unlimited "colors" of sound, dynamic qualities, and the pure singing properties one can accomplish with it are IMHO, simply amazing. I also think it is fear of sounding bad, making horrible sounds. I've heard it, in one form or another, from my students to fellow bassists. I at one time, even shared some of those same thoughts.

I, for one, agree...but then I use the bow all the time as I continue to explore the doublebass. I can tell you there were many things with the bow that I simply did not hear at all when I started. It's been like learning a new language for me, and now I can't imagine why anyone else wouldn't want to learn this language too with the things it can express.

On the other hand, I now get to hear things in pizz that indicate the possibility for almost unlimited "colors" as well. Hearing someone like Renauld-Garcia Fons use dynamics and accents, for example, in his plucking work sure does sound good too. So I make efforts to be open-minded and keep learning.

What I find curious, is when jazz bassists talk about finding "their voice, tone, sound" expressing, themselves, on & on, all the while ignoring, or dismissing the most "expressive" element at their disposal... the bow! The almost unlimited "colors" of sound, dynamic qualities, and the pure singing properties one can accomplish with it are IMHO, simply amazing. I also think it is fear of sounding bad, making horrible sounds. I've heard it, in one form or another, from my students to fellow bassists. I at one time, even shared some of those same thoughts.

On the other hand, there are also practical issues involved, such as the number of hours in the day. If none of your gigs require bowing, and if getting a great pizz sound is your top priority, and if you believe that playing in tune is more a function of hearing in tune than training your fingers to sit in a particular spot every time you play the note "Ab", then going bowless makes a little more sense.

I practice slow scales with the bow from time to time, and in an ideal world would have about four times as much time to practice as I do now... so in the ideal world, the bow would be a bigger influence. But in the real world, it doesn't work like that, and I (for one) do the best I can.

Playing arco revealed qualities of sound, colour, call it what you will that I now look to bring out in my pizz which started to sound dull and lifeless in comparison - I'd have probably gone on a string-hunting bass-blaming waste of time otherwise. It took a while for my arco sound to develop but as it did, so did the true sound of the instrument, and my pizz sound is better for it.

DUURRRL, I am certainly no arco snob, so don't read any attitude into this. I find that the arco/intonation thing is quite valid, but it has nothing to do with "training your fingers to sit in a particular spot every time you play the note Ab". (Pardon me while I shift into first-person to make the rest of this work.) It has everything to do with my hearing the note louder and more rich with overtones, revealing my intonation to me more starkly and bereft of muddy clothing. Fine movements of the finger reveal changes in pitch that aren't quite audible in pizz-land (not that that's relevant to pizz playing.) In other words, it makes it easier for my ear to do the "hearing in tune" work you mention.

Newbies (especially non-classical newbies) should understand there is no moral failure in not using the bow. Go ahead and play the thing with your feet for all I care, if that works for you and your music. After 7 or 8 months with the thing, I'm starting to see it less as solely a "stick o'pain" and more an instrument of musical experession.

The bow is a complete bitch of a thing to get sounding good, though. I haven't dared take mine out in public yet.

When I ran into a wall trying to learn DB on my own and recognized the necessity of a teacher I looked at the prospect of learning arco as a bitter pill. Now I find it hard to practice pizz. After living in the obscurity of woodshedding for the last six months I put myself out there for jazz gigs. I'm meeting with a guitar player and drummer this Thursday. Six months ago I would have been jumping out of my skin about this but I find myself strangely detached, lukewarm about it. Have any of you had this experience? If so, where have you gone with it? How many of you are jazz expatriots who -after learning the stick- haven't looked back?

Funny, my teacher never forced me or even said a single word about learning arco when I first started with him. I was the one who brought it up after reading what you guys had to say. He had me focusing strictly on pizz (I wanted to learn jazz) and never mentioned the bow. He's studied with Buster Williams, George Mraz, and Homer Mensch and played with Dave Liebman, and Chet Baker among others. He graduated from Mannes Conservatory no less, so he's def got the skillz.

Very curious... I will have to ask him why next time I see him.

I'm meeting with a guitar player and drummer this Thursday. Six months ago I would have been jumping out of my skin about this but I find myself strangely detached, lukewarm about it. Have any of you had this experience? If so, where have you gone with it? How many of you are jazz expatriots who -after learning the stick- haven't looked back?
How about you play it arco? :)

How about you play it arco? :)
Within the limits of good taste, I'm going to work in as much arco as possible.

I don't think Dennis' post can be overemphasized. Why haven't more jazz players explored that dimension?

Well, if you lower your expectations to asking for bowed instrument participation of any kind in jazz then I'm sure you'll find a larger number of talented folks there. Bowed bass itself is a little rarer a find because: 1) it takes additional woodshedding to meet both the player's and the public's expectations, and 2) there is a substantial history of pizz-only bass in jazz to warrant complacency on both the player's and public's part, in my humble opinion.

Depending on the instrumentation of the band, as an example say a quartet.....rhythm section with a horn....using the bass as a second front line horn in an arco mode is very hip. The timbre of the bass when being bowed is almost that of a tenor sax anyway.

..tenor sax...

Dang it, I forgot the name of the tenor sax player you mentioned in a thread a while back who had a killer vibrato, absolutely gorgeous. I'm going to have to search for his name again.

Dang it, I forgot the name of the tenor sax player you mentioned in a thread a while back who had a killer vibrato, absolutely gorgeous. I'm going to have to search for his name again.
My favorite tenor player with a georgeous vibrato is Harold Land. He and (here we go again,) Red Mitchell had a band, The Red Mitchell Harold Land Quintet where Red would supply the third horn voice arco bass along with Harold and Carmel Jones on trunpet. Frank Strazzeri on piano and Leone Petties on drums completed the band.
It also might have been Gene "Jug Head" Ammons, whose tenor sound Red said he he was trying to get on arco bass. (and did) The richness of the front line on this band was beautiful with arco bass, tenor and muted/un-muted trumpet!!
I know you're gonna ask, so here's the only info. I have: Hear Ye!!!!Hear Ye!!!! The Red Mitchell-Harold Land Quintet. Vinyl. Atlantic Records.1376. 1962. Leonard Feather provided the liner notes.
Interesting musical conception for this band. Red and Harold were concerned about the lack of strong, kinda hard sounding, be-bopish type bands coming out of the West coast. Art Blakey and Horace Silver type Hard Bop bands were plentiful coming out of New York at this time. This is these guys answer to those bands for the West Coast!
On his way to changing to fifth tuning, Red plays A fiver low B on this record. The bass on the cover is A big Tyrol that John Heard bought from Red later. Paul Toenniges converted this bass to five for Red using Joseph Bohmann machines...The maker of my fiver. My bass has the only complete set of 5 string Bohmann machines in the world! Funny part is, Paul used a four string set of Bohmann machines on this bass...just adding another un-matched machine for the B.
Everyone always wondered why Red never bowed any more after he moved to Sweden. Some drunk in a bar stole Reds beloved Nuernberger bow and that was the end of Reds arco....He was like that.

ARCO is a must. no matter what you play MO.

Jazz and Arco. Ray Brown, PC, McBride, and many more have made taken the bass there. I think it is hard to work in the Arco b/c of teh bassists role in jazz....but who is stopping you from taken an arco solo or doubling on the head.

Matt

Yes, Jug Head! But I'll check out Harold Land too now.

Does sound interesting - apparently it was made into a CD in 2000 and Amazon have copies for sale...

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00004NKC2.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Does sound interesting - apparently it was made into a CD in 2000 and Amazon have copies for sale...

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00004NKC2.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
Bless you Bruce!!I didn't even think they'd CDed it yet.
Notice Paul Toenniges' bridge adjusters on the Tyrol. And this was 1962! Also, hard to see, but notice the Bohmann machines!

IMHO you should learn arco even if you don't use it on gigs. It will help strengthen your fretting hand and will certainly point out weak spots in your intonation. I'm not saying to spend most of your practice time bowing, but I believe it is very helpful when you are starting.

Ray Brown is certainly known for his pizz and is pretty much the standard for pizz bassists but even he worked out with the bow often and would take lessons from classical players in the cities he played in when on tour. Most of the time he was playing pizz but he still realized that the bow was a useful color in his palette.

I remember an oral interview with Milt Hinton (I believe it's on his album Father Time) and he talked about when he first got into the studios which at the time were inhabited by classical musicians in the main. He points out that the ability to bow got him a lot more work than the other bassists. He still spent 95% of his time slapping and pizzing but it was yet another tool in his toolbox. Why sell yourself short.

IMHO you should learn arco even if you don't use it on gigs. It will help strengthen your fretting hand and will certainly point out weak spots in your intonation.


I don't have a "fretting hand". :)

[QUOTE=abaguer]Ray Brown is certainly known for his pizz and is pretty much the standard for pizz bassists but even he worked out with the bow often and would take lessons from classical players in the cities he played in when on tour. Most of the time he was playing pizz but he still realized that the bow was a useful color in his palette.

I agree. The first bowed bass solo I ever heard was on an old Concord Jazz album titled "Soft Shoe". On it Ray along with Herb Ellis, played, IMHO, the best, most artist, rendition of Green Dolphin Street, I've ever heard. It was slow, and very melodious, Ray playing arco throughout, with Ellis accompanying with a delicate, arpeggiated stye. Simply Beatiful!

Dennis

Originally Posted by ARGLEBARGLE

I'm glad to see that Chris Fitzgerald is continuing the Ed Fuqua tradition of creative enhancement of member names. :cool: \

ps I used "fretting" hand as to not upset the southpaws among us.

...are frets OK as long as you don't mark their positions?

IMHO you should learn arco even if you don't use it on gigs. It will help strengthen your fretting hand and will certainly point out weak spots in your intonation. I'm not saying to spend most of your practice time bowing, but I believe it is very helpful when you are starting.

Ray Brown is certainly known for his pizz and is pretty much the standard for pizz bassists but even he worked out with the bow often and would take lessons from classical players in the cities he played in when on tour. Most of the time he was playing pizz but he still realized that the bow was a useful color in his palette.

I remember an oral interview with Milt Hinton (I believe it's on his album Father Time) and he talked about when he first got into the studios which at the time were inhabited by classical musicians in the main. He points out that the ability to bow got him a lot more work than the other bassists. He still spent 95% of his time slapping and pizzing but it was yet another tool in his toolbox. Why sell yourself short.

To be perfectly blunt, I can't take you very seriously in any discussion about the double bass with your incessant use of that awful word FRET. By the way, have you heard Chris play? :eyebrow:

Fretting hand = a hand you worry about :D
Fingering hand = a hand that fret about :smug:

To be perfectly blunt, I can't take you very seriously in any discussion about the double bass with your incessant use of that awful word FRET. By the way, have you heard Chris play?

No I haven't heard Chris play. I'm sure he plays beautifully if he's at the Abersold camp. Don't believe I ever said anything about his playing.

I certainly apologize about using the word "fret". I'm sure everyone understands what I mean't to say.

[B] I certainly apologize about using the word "fret". I'm sure everyone understands what I mean't to say.

I'm sure "they" do, but some "people" have this "thing" about anything that is connected to slab playing [it makes them feel superior you see]. :hiding:


Man that felt good :p

I certainly apologize about using the word "fret". I'm sure everyone understands what I mean't to say.


Just jerking your chain. :)

I'm sure "they" do, but some "people" have this "thing" about anything that is connected to slab playing [it makes them feel superior you see]. :hiding:


Man that felt good :p
I'm so glad....I don't feel superior to anyone. I love the slab. I'm very much into the music of Brazil and There are some slabbers down there that kill me. You guys need to recognize a put on when you see one.

Bastids. But thank you AMN

I'm so glad....I don't feel superior to anyone. I love the slab. I'm very much into the music of Brazil and There are some slabbers down there that kill me. You guys need to recognize a put on when you see one.

I did :D :D :D