Stupid people keep getting jobs. The audition circut is as dirty as William "refridgerator" Perry's under-pants from last week. What a complete waste of time. Every dream and aspiration that I've had means nothing to me now. All these people that get these jobs have connections not ability. I don't want somebody sitting next to me because they took lessons from some great player. I want to sit next to a great player, damn it!!! **** this stupid ****!!!!!!!:mad: :mad: I ****ing Quit!

The subject of "Audition Politics" could be a great topic for a thread, if anyone was interested in discussing it. Blowing off steam is fine too, as long as it is kept relatively clean and accomplished with the forum rules in mind.

My first wife was a violinist who tried the audition circuit for a brief while and found it equally frustrating. The "withering away" of the "legit" scene makes the competition all that much more fierce for those few jobs which do still exist. Still, most of her auditions were screened or "blind" auditions, the purpose of which was supposed to be to avoid favoritism. Do I take it that system isn't working?

Welcome to life, baby. It's dirty and unfair, and that's the way it goes. You just have to hang in there and be persistent. At some point you'll have to upper hand because of connections and someone else will be bitching.

Geez, Ray, now I'm all disillusioned. You mean that you need connections for jazz gigs? I always thought that people got bigger jazz gigs by becoming better bass-players.

At least there are auditions for orchestras. It may be a mixed blessing, but counter yer blessings nevertheless!

I don't think you can be surprised at politics in classical music and(more and more in jazz)

After all, we're all learning to play this stuff in college music schools, he most bitterly political places I've ever seen.


Dave




"An honest man will always have enemies. A dishonest man will always have friends. A man who has only friends and no enemies knows who to lie to and who to be honest with."

Just goes to show the importance of networking. It sounds like you're behind in that game, but it certainly isn't too late to start.

Masterbass-
Yep.
Uh-huh.
Sure...
Don't let 'em get you down, man. The Audition world is very frustrating, obviously. Politics are an intellectual nightmare, and letting them get under your skin is disasterous. They exist in ALL trades, but my best defense yet is flat-water kayaking. Keep your chin up, and always wear a life-vest.

Originally posted by masterofbass
Stupid people keep getting jobs. The audition circut is as dirty as William "refridgerator" Perry's under-pants from last week. What a complete waste of time. Every dream and aspiration that I've had means nothing to me now. All these people that get these jobs have connections not ability. I don't want somebody sitting next to me because they took lessons from some great player.

Take heart! The latest bass auditions in Louisville, San Antonio, Portland, Buffalo, Alabama, Kansas City, Denver, Seattle, Columbus and Baltimore were won by players who didn't "know" anyone, they just showed up for the audition.
Here in Louisville, they had seen me before, as a finalist in their 1999 audition, but I'd never taken any "lessons" or done any phony "networking".
It's possible.

At the critical point in my life when I had to decide whether to go to a conservatory and pursue a career in music performance or go into the "real world," I chose the latter. Now I play bass for fun, and as a release from other life stresses. It was the right decision for me; I wasn't good enough at music to make it professionally.

I have done fairly well professionally in the real world, and let me tell you that every aspect of politics that you see in music is also present in business, academia, and the learned professions, especially the closer you get to the top of the pyramid.

In big-time orchestras, ALL jobs are close to the top of the pyramid. (Think of all the amateur players, students, and struggling pros who could never even make the entry-level round of auditions).

That means that, realistically, politics often will have some impact on the outcome of the selection process, though it won't always be decisive. It's a fact of life. If you can't accept it, getting out of the game may be the best thing. However, don't expect that you won't run into similar phenomena in whatever other field you may choose to enter instead.

I remember audiitions in Baltimore back in the 80's. It was so strict that people were told not to wear perfume/ cologne or certain shoes that the jury might associate with certain players.

Every audition I have done has been behind the veil.

Originally posted by kpo


Even the second-to-last Cleveland audition was won by someone the committee didn't know, which is SUPER RARE for Cleveland.
I'ts possible, keep at it.

Are you referring to the Principal audition that Dimoff won? Or have there been more since then? That was rather odd, even stranger for the fact that Dimoff had not previously held a principal position.

Personally, I think politics *did* play a part in a reverse sort of way. Dohnayni seemed determined to *not* give the position to Scott Haigh, despite his serving as an acting co-principal for years while the Orchestra held auditions and lost at least one winner due to contract (mis) negotiations. Now that Cleveland has a principal, Dohnayni has since left... Haigh must be loving fate right about now. Then again, he's the no. 2 man in one of the greatest orchestras in the world and one of the most sought after teachers in the country, so he can't feel too sorry for himself.

Originally posted by Shlomobaruch
Are you referring to the Principal audition that Dimoff won? Or have there been more since then? That was rather odd, even stranger for the fact that Dimoff had not previously held a principal position.


They've had two auditions since then. The first one they hired a guy Mr Dimoff said he didn't know; someone who had to send in a tape. Their runner-up for that same audition also had to send in a tape, but wasn't accepted. His teacher had to call and ask that he be heard!!! then they picked that guy as runner-up, over all the other invitees!!!! **wow**.

Cleveland has a looong history of what looks like Nepotism, but, at least in recent Bass auditions, thing have been going better. I was fortunate enough to meet Mr Dimoff, and he seems like an honest and very forthright guy, so that's awesome.

Most big orchestras these days have a wide-open "cattle-call" letting *most* applicants come and try out. The only way to be sure you're hearing the best folks from everywhere, not just the folks who "know people". Having a "cassette-tape 1st round" clearly leaves capable and relevant players out-of-the-loop... though I can imagine dreading listening to three days of bass players....

You're right! I'm stupid. I forgot that when my teacher (Harry Barnoff) retired they'd have to audition someone for the missing spot! But that is interesting. As far as politics go, I can somehow imagine Larry Angell being very much into that. I feel bad because I never met the guy, but I've never heard a good thing about him, and he did lose the Principal chair in Cleveland by taking the Mahler 1 solo at half tempo.:confused: I'm glad Dimoff seems so straightforward and less... goofy.

But aside from politics in the bass community, Barnoff told me about the rounds of auditions they had for Principal, which he heard, and there were players that the bassists thought were wonderful, but Dohnayni didn't like their sound and refused them. He was rather frustrated, because auditions take time and money, and they had wasted two entire rounds at that point, and if the conductor and the section couldn't agree on what they were looking for, they were only going to be wasting more time and money.

worse is when there is someone less experinced than you that got the spot without an audition.
Welcome to life

Originally posted by Leco
worse is when there is someone less experinced than you that got the spot without an audition.
Welcome to life

Where in the world could someone get an orchestra job without an audition?
Two or three ICSOM orchestras look crazy-hard to get into, but they still have to hold an audition....

For what it is worth. While I was studying my teacher made the point that I would probably take anywhere from 15 - 20 auditions before I won a major orchestra job. (I'm happy to say it didn't take qiute that long). But what we wanted me to understand was that it would take years of commited practice time and money.
My experience has shown me that it usually takes a person a few years of auditioning before they make it past the first round of an audition. Then they work on making it past the second round to the finals. Usually, it is the same 5 - 10 people that make the finals in every audition. (of course, someone wins and then a new person joins that group). Occasionally there is the phenom college student who appears out of nowhere and steals the show.But for most of us it boils down to sticking it out for the long haul and realizing from the begining that it will take a few years before you win.

Originally posted by paulunger
For what it is worth. While I was studying my teacher made the point that I would probably take anywhere from 15 - 20 auditions before I won a major orchestra job.... he wanted me to understand was that it would take years of commited practice time and money.


Take note, "masterofbass", whoever started this thread;
It is this very reasoning, voiced by paulunger, that separates winners from quitters.

KPO, You sounded really good when you were singing the sight reading piece from memory at the Louisville audition.

No connections my big fat fanny. I heard you were staying at one of the bass players houses while you were at the audition.:spit:

What in the WORLD are you talking about - sour grapes? Were you there?

Give your Big Fat Fanny a rest. I stayed at Motel 6. Where did you stay? Home?!?!?!?

If you want to quit and :bawl:, go ahead, I know I won't have to consider meeting you at any future auditions.

If, on the other hand, you choose to Get With The Program and keep auditioning... I'll see you at Boston, New York, Indianapolis, Grant Park and San Fransisco, the five auditions coming in the next three months, as of 2/21/03....

Don't worry I'll get with the program.

Originally posted by masterofanonybass
KPO, You sounded really good when you were singing the sight reading piece from memory at the Louisville audition.

No connections my big fat fanny. I heard you were staying at one of the bass players houses while you were at the audition.:spit:


Nice. Very nice. But also vague. VERY vague. If you want to call someone out in a public forum, your point will have a lot more credibility if you will sign your name to it. It takes no testicular fortitude whatsoever to flame someone from a position of invisibility. If you think your point is valid, and that KAPOW is really guilty of some kind of nepotism, at least have the stones to sign your name to the accusation.

And just in case you think that my defense of KAPOW is just another example of nepotism, you should know that CAPO and I have never met or even spoken on the phone. He's a legit guy, I'm a jazzer. Different strokes, different circles. For all I know he might well have had "improper" connections with someone in power at the auditions - but until I hear this from a reliable source who has enough decency to show his or her face while making specific accusations of impropriety, I'm going to assume innocence until proven otherwise. Want to up the ante? Then take off your mask and present your charges from a location other than an invisible glass house.

My most sincere appologies KPO. I am in the deepest of hateful and spiteful thought. It is driving me crazy that I have yet to get a job. I don't know how I have let myself slip so far and so fast. It is very easy to lash out at someone when you're feeling so worthless:(

No I didn't hear any of that BS that I was talking about. So, my deepest regrets belong to kpo. I am sorry for making you the object of my loathesome feelings.

Regretfuly yours, masterofbass

Master O' da Bass:

Upstanding gesture on your behalf. Unusual display of sportsmanship that you surely would not find on the other half of this site.

I wish you well.

P.S. Chris, I see you are already honing those parental skills.

Originally posted by Tim Ludlam
Master O' da Bass:

Upstanding gesture on your behalf. Unusual display of sportsmanship that you surely would not find on the other half of this site.

I wish you well.

I'll second that

P.S. Chris, I see you are already honing those parental skills.


I'm too mature to post a smiley, but if i weren't, this is where I'd do it. *









* This statement is the sole property of DONOSAUR ENTERPRISES, INC. Used by permission

Originally posted by masterofbass
No I didn't hear any of that BS that I was talking about. So, my deepest regrets belong to kpo. I am sorry for making you the object of my loathesome feelings.
Regretfuly yours, masterofbass

So I'll see you at the Indy audtion, your home turf? I play on the 03/17/03.

.

Nap-town's own will be present for the audition. It should be a good competition for the job. This marks the first audition that I won't have to travel more than 200 miles to get to. Woo-Hoo!

I'm finding this Orchestral Audition forum to be very interesting...lets keep the posts coming!

In response to kpo's statement:
<The latest bass auditions in Louisville, San Antonio, Portland, Buffalo, Alabama, Kansas City, Denver, Seattle, Columbus were won by players who didn't "know" anyone, they just showed up for the audition. Not sure about Baltimore.>

I can assure everyone that the winner of the Baltimore audition got the gig because he played a far better audition than anyone else that day. We on the audition panel went out of our way to ensure that this audition was as fair as possible. I would also like to point out that we invited nearly everyone who sent a resume to the audition.

Best of luck to everyone in the future!

David Sheets
Baltimore

Originally posted by contrabasso

I can assure everyone that the winner of the Baltimore audition got the gig because he played a far better audition than anyone else that day. We on the audition panel went out of our way to ensure that this audition was as fair as possible. I would also like to point out that we invited nearly everyone who sent a resume to the audition.
David Sheets
Baltimore

That is very heartening to hear about your winner, and excellent that you had so many invitees. Orchestras that do it any other way really limit themselves!

And congrats, Mr. sheets on being a finalist for Principal of Indy in March...!

Originally posted by contrabasso
In response to kpo's statement:
<The latest bass auditions in Louisville, San Antonio, Portland, Buffalo, Alabama, Kansas City, Denver, Seattle, Columbus were won by players who didn't "know" anyone, they just showed up for the audition. Not sure about Baltimore.>




Yeah, But the guy who won San Antonio had to agree to play for free! http://smilies.crowd9.com/contrib/geno/rofl.gif

<That is very heartening to hear about your winner, and excellent that you had so many invitees. Orchestras that do it any other way really limit themselves!>

I agree for the most part. There are circumstances unique to every orchestra which make it difficult to apply that logic to everyone though. We are lucky in that we own our hall and were able to hold auditions for several days and accomidate the huge number of bassist who showed up. (and God...it was a **HUGE** number.)
Many orchestras including some of the really "big" orchestras, are not so lucky and need to screen resumes more severely since they are paying huge amounts of money to rent the hall and anyone who has played in an american orchestra for any length of time knows how difficult it is to convince managements to spend money even on things as important as auditions.

<And congrats, Mr. sheets on being a finalist for Principal of Indy in March...!>

Thanks for the kind words. That was an interesting audition indeed...I didn't really have enough time to prepare properly, but figured I might as well go anyway since I definately wouldn't win if I didnt try. I'll definately want to talk to Venzago when he conducts here in a few weeks!

ds
baltimore

Originally posted by contrabasso
<<...excellent that you had so many invitees. Orchestras that do it any other way really limit themselves!>>
.... We are lucky in that we own our hall ...including some of the really "big" orchestras, are not so lucky and need to screen resumes more severely since they are paying huge amounts of money to rent the hall ...


Alas, Louisville holds its auditions in a rehearsal room. The only other group I've seen do that was Tulsa.
Money, money, Money. But there's certainly no call for limiting invitees!

Hmm the thing that anoyed the heck out of me about auditions was the lack of feedback ... at least someone could say playing was great but your sound wound'nt fit in with what we want, or these teachers would be the people that would help you get that sound... Or good solo but your sight reading let you down ... just a few bits of information to help make a bit more sense of things .....

On the other hand it's also a great feeling when you go in and nail the job! And if you realy want to you will get there!

My advice is hang in there and try to find a way to keep it constructive .... good luck to all of you !!!

What an amazing thread.....I just happened to check it out for fun....it has nothing to do with what I do because, like Chris, i'm a jazzer....but I just had to say how lucky we are to have this forum!
TBDB never fails to amaze me. I'm maybe the oldest guy on here, but not as mature as Chris....so :D

Some orchestras have policies forbidding the giving of comments.
Nonsensical, eh?

Rigged audition(s) have happened recently and it's the worst thinking that the riggers were ok with having 20-150 people prepare for months, buy hotel room, airfare, lose work in their hometown thinking they might have a chance.
I'd be wary of the lack of screen.

How could anyone with a conscience really do it, eh?

Dude please :::: Come on!! The key is play so .....ing great they have to give you the job. Favoritism happenns, from polotics to genetics to the new Pope. So get on with your life and keep practicing and maybe someday you will be the favorite.
Have a nice day :)

Nearly every orchestra I know of has an MD with 51%-90% of the final say.
While some auditions are rigged in that the MD already has a player in mind, very few can effectively be rigged so much in that you don't 'earn' your job. A prominent concertmaster and I discussed this on more than one occasion when he won his first job in the states because he just was that good.

The cba we negotiated last summer hands hiring decisions solely to the Baltimore Symphony musicians as of next season. Our MD will have zero votes unless we ask him to.

I see Dave Sheets responded to an earlier question about Baltimore auditions. Mark Huang was the last guy we hired and Dave was before that. We didn't know either of them before the audition. Everything here is behind a screen except the final round and we have a bulldog of a union steward who makes sure our feet are held to the fire of honesty and fair play. Auditions are bad enough without questionable behavior.

Just curious, what is the age average in those auditions?
And what about the winners?

Just saw a answer to my own question in AGE AND ORCHESTRAL JOBS . DAAAAAAA :rollno:

Auditions are bad enough without questionable behavior.[/QUOTE]


You said it, Hampton.