A suggestion for a new forum - Composition [BG] - for all things to do with composing/songwriting (regardless of instrument) - i.e. approaches to composing, a place where TB'ers could get help with writing, ideas, suggestions etc.

Maybe there isn't a need for it, or maybe this is just GI territory - but I think it could be good, what do you guys think?

I think it's a good idea, I like it better than band management/performance... that forum is just like gig stories/misc combined... I don't dig it so much. But I don't know how well composition would go over. I can only think of a few questions anyone would ask/discuss.

The Composition forum could also be a place where people can post recordings and/or scores/tabs of their own compositions for help, constructive criticism etc. While the Recordings forum is perhaps geared towards existing recordings, this forum could cater for TB'ers own compositions?

I'd be happy to moderate it.

oooh, with further explanation... I do like the sounds of it a lot. I give you permission to start it! :)

Nice idea, although I would call it Composition/Songwriting[BG]

Yeah, or maybe Composition & Songwriting [BG]. I reckon the & looks better than the slash ;)

I reckon it could work. Paul, what d'ya think?

Any support? C'mon guys...

I think I'd rather have a more general "Theory" forum which could include aspects of composition under this heading.

I think that there are likely to be a very limited number of questions/discussions just on this and really what people will be asking is to do with Music Theory - I think a Theory forum is needed and that this ought to be a higher priority and could also state that it includes questions about or related to Composition.

Well, for theory, we've already got GI, and Mike Dimin's.

The idea was that not only would it pertain to questions about composition from a theory perspective, but also a place to post recordings of TB'ers' compositions for suggestions/constructive critisism, or simply to let other TB'ers hear their work.

Arguably we've already got forums that *could* cover the kind of thing I'm talking about - it's really about specializing - as was the case with Band Management & Performance. I think we've already got theory covered - but no specific composition forum. And I think composition is a very important aspect of music and bass playing.

It could work. Are there a number of recent threads you reckon would fit? Or are you working on a 'build it and they will come' basis?

Wulf

A bit of both really. Just this morning, for example, I saw a thread in Bassists (what it was doing in there, I don't know) in which someone was asking for advice on a fragment of a bassline they had come up with, and how to make a proper bassline of it. (As I said in that thread) This is a perfect candidate for the proposed forum. Also, there have been a number of threads in Recordings in which people have posted their own compositions (I know Matt has, for one ;)).

And also, I think maybe having a specific forum for composition might encourage people to discuss it more.

OK, here are couple of relatively recent potential candidates...

What could you bassists do with this... (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69857) (the one I mentioned above)
Some New Sutff!! (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69810)
Check out our demo!!! (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69545)
Starting work on a bass solo album... (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59807) (not wishing to poach from Lawson & Manring though ;))

There have been plenty like these in the past too, I think.

And like I said, I'd also like to promote discussion. I know there are plenty of TB'ers out there making their own music.

Obviously it's not gonna be the busiest forum, but I think it could be good.

I'd certainly keep an eye on it, so I guess that could count as a vote for the idea :D

Wulf

Good! Cheers, wulf.

I've just had a thought, it could include arranging too? Composition & Arrangement [BG]. Thus, including questions about arranging for different instruments e.g. "Here's my version of Stairway To Heaven for Tuba, Clarinet, and Triangle, criticism please!" ;)

Originally posted by moley
Well, for theory, we've already got GI, and Mike Dimin's.

....I think we've already got theory covered - but no specific composition forum.

I don't think this is right - GI is not explicitly about Theory and to me sounds more like it covers teaching and issues around basic tuition.

I actually think that we need an explicit "Theory" forum, more than one called "General Instruction" - but definitely more than we need a composition one!

I don't think you can include the pros forum in this, as their commitments often mean they are away - but there are always lots of people like Jazzbo, Chris F etc who can get involved in Theory debates.

I would say that an explict Theory forum is a higher priority - especially if it can be used by both BG and DB sides. I would then say if this got a lot of composition-related threads, then break it out of there.

Originally posted by moley
(I know Matt has, for one ;)).



Yeah and people still won't listen to our new song! :mad: hehe, it's awful so I don't really care. :)

It'd be helpful to everyone in a way...I dig it

BUMP! Support...?

Hi
That would be the best idea I've heard all year :D

PS> Can I be a mod now. I have no money for bribes so youll just have to choose me for my extremly large........frets.

Lukas

Cheers ashton :)

Mods are for Paul to decide, but maybe he'll let you co-moderate it with me :D

Originally posted by moley
BUMP! Support...?

Nah!!

Theory Forum, Theory Forum!!

Oh not you again Lindfield. :)

Maybe, at a push, "Composition & Theory". Definitely not the other way round though :D

Actually... I don't see why GI shouldn't just become "Theory". I mean, its stated purpose in the FAQ is for questions on theory and notation. It might make more sense if GI was just Theory [BG], and we had a separate Composition & Arrangement [BG] forum.

Originally posted by moley
Actually... I don't see why GI shouldn't just become "Theory". I mean, its stated purpose in the FAQ is for questions on theory and notation. It might make more sense if GI was just Theory [BG],

I agree with that part - I think General Instruction is a misleading title - basically if a bass-related question isn't about gear and is about technique and hence should be in the Technique forum, then it really can only be related to Music Theory.

The trouble is to do with definitions - it seems that a lot of the younger board members have an irrational aversion to "Theory" and see it as dry,dull,dusty and something that stifles your creativity.

Whereas, to me it just means "talking about music" - as in musical ideas, as opposed to recorded music or live music.

I would be quite happy to see the General Instruction forum changed to :

"Music Theory and Composition"

Maybe we should ask the mods of GI for their input?

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


I agree with that part - I think General Instruction is a misleading title - basically if a bass-related question isn't about gear or technique and hence should be in the Technique forum, then it really can only be related to Music Theory.

The trouble is to do with definitions - it seems that a lot of the younger board members have an irrational aversion to "Theory" and see it as dry,dull,dusty and something that stifles your creativity.

Whereas, to me it just means "talking about music" - as in musical ideas, as opposed to recorded music or live music.

I agree. I really don't know how the "theory kills creativity" thing has gotten into so many young players' heads. The idea that theory could block you never occurred to me until I heard McCartney say in an interview that he didn't want to have lessons or learn theory because he thought it would kill his creativity. And even then I didn't agree with it.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


"Music Theory and Composition"

Maybe we should ask the mods of GI for their input?

Yeah, a combined one could work. I still think that it would be nice to have one specifically for composition - because this can also include TBer's own recordings of compositions and the like. That sort of thing may not belong in "Music Theory and Composition"? But I do think that GI should become "Theory" - in some form or other.

I just think the scope of composition & arrangement is greater than just something to be bundled in with theory. I do agree we need a theory forum - but I think it should just be a modified GI - and composition & arrangement deserves its own forum.

Anyone? Paul?

I would suggest PM'ing Paul - he is always open to ideas and suggestions, but is obviously very,very busy. I think he would appreciate it if you pointed out where this thread was and a summary of what it contains.

There is an awful lot of work in managing/maintaining TB and I think Paul is a professional DB player as well; so he doesn't have time to post as much as he used to.

Good idea.

I'll keep this suggestion in mind - it's been made before, and for one reason or another has been voted down. If you are for or against a composition forum, please continue to post your thoughts to this thread.

I am very much in favor of a Composition forum, being a composer...

Theory and composition are two different things and should be treated as such.

Originally posted by godoze


Theory and composition are two different things and should be treated as such.

I'm not sure about this - so while I can see they are two different things, I can only imagine that the questions asked or issues raised, about composition will also be related to Music Theory.

So Music Theory is basically about how you write music - it is the way that musicians talk in words about composing music and what works, what doesn't etc.

So - for example - when composing, the reason a certain resolution works in the song/piece is entirely down to music theory.

The fact that a bassist in a punk band may not talk about music in the same way as somebody who has been classically-trained for 10 years doesn't change the fact that why a certain chord "works" in his punk song, is music theory!

Out of interest Bruce, do you do any composing?

I have done lots in the past and when I am in the act of composing, I can see how it can all be very intuitive, for example.

BUT - if you are going to talk about it on an internet forum - then basically you are talking music theory!

Music Theory can't just be an academic exercise - putting it into practice is composition - or improvising, which is basically spontaneous composition.

So - you don't need music theory just to play notes off a page - presuming you know the basics of reading - the only reason you need Theory is for composing or improvising - and as I said, I see these as the same thing but either spontanous or planned!!

I would argue that when you are talking about it in words - then theory and composition (spontaneous or planned) are inextricably linked.

I see your point Bruce.

But I still think a separate forum would be better :D

Bruce, you seem to be working under the assumption that everyone composes tonally. Many, many composers are are strictly atonal, in the 12 tone school and just plain, atonal withought following any school..

Not to mention graphic notation...Cage, Stockhausen, Wolff, and many other forward thinking 20th c. composers.

Composition is a craft and an art. Theory is just that; theory.

Where didour tonal theory come from ? mainly from studying the works of the masters- Bach in particular.

Now if you get in modern compostion the precompostional process becomes more esoteric and in the forefront.

It needs to be in its own forum...:)

I agree. And there is also the added dimension of arrangement. Something that currently doesn't get an awful lot of discussion - but should do! And the Composition forum would also act as a receptacle for recordings. I think theory is only 1 dimension of the world of composition - and composition deserves more than to be tacked onto the theory forum.

Originally posted by godoze
Bruce, you seem to be working under the assumption that everyone composes tonally. Many, many composers are are strictly atonal, in the 12 tone school and just plain, atonal withought following any school..

Not to mention graphic notation...Cage, Stockhausen, Wolff, and many other forward thinking 20th c. composers.



I know all about this and have CDs by Stockhausen Cage etc
But I would say this is a point to prove my argument.
How can you talk about 12 tone rows without talking music theory - it is totally related to music theory!!

So - modern composers are pushing the boundaries, but any discussion about this is a dicussion about music theory - it has to be, by definition!! The boundaries against which they are pushing, are accepted music theory!!


Composition is a craft and an art. Theory is just that; theory.


Yes and No - OK the actual "doing" of composition is art - but talking about it is pure music theory!! And that is all we can do here - talk!!



Where did our tonal theory come from ? mainly from studying the works of the masters- Bach in particular.



Exactly - the compositions of previous composers are the very stuff that makes up music theory - they are one and the same thing!!

no,no,no. not any more...200 years ago our theory came from the masters. in the 20th c. composer put their own theories into practice by composing with them...

In order to be a composer you hvae to grasp theory on some level. maybe that is only knowing I- IV -V, or maybe it is knowing Relative range concepts and harmonic rhythm and Difference tone theory, at any rate composition is different than theory, linked yes, definitely, but not the same.

knowing a major scale is knowing theory, writing a composition that just repeats a major scale is compositional mastubation.

Think of it this way; in college one could not take compostion classes until several prerquisite theory classes were finished (at least where I went to college) so the idea was that one who wishes to compose must already understand theory !

we should not confuse the innocents by adding the two together and you'll never convince me otherwise my friend.:)

I still think you're missing my point - that OK, Composition is a separate activity, but that "talking about composition" is pure music theory - that is how/why music theory was developed!!

And as we can only talk here, then the two are inseperable here - although not in "real life".

I tell you what - I challenge you to talk meaningfully about some aspect of composition in a manner that totally avoids music theory or any reference to it - I just don't believe you can do it!!

Originally posted by godoze

Think of it this way; in college one could not take compostion classes until several prerquisite theory classes were finished (at least where I went to college) so the idea was that one who wishes to compose must already understand theory !



As a PS - I would first say that the way a college course is structured has little to do with the real world or "how things" are - but to me, this re-inforces my point!! So - what you are saying is that the course designers believe you cannot compose without thorough knowledge of theory - theory is essential for understanding composition.

The two are insperable!! ;)

ok Bruce

Rimsky Kosakovs "Night on Bald Mountain."

THe scene is a witchs's gathering. An orgy really. The peice starts out nicely with the strings and builds to climax with the witches themselves. All becomes quiet at the end.

See ? I did it.

I am not saying that the two should not be discussed together, but when they are discussed together it is usually
because the topic under discussion is a specific piece of music. Therefore, the people discussing had better already have a grasp on the neccessary level of theory needed to intelligently discuss the piece as regards form and content.

Theory in itself is nebulous and a bit removed from the real world. It is put only in its proper perspective by discussing it in reference to musical compositions.

YOu can talk about comps without talking about theory. for instance, if you are commenting on a graphical notation you may be talking about the artistic beauty of the score; George Crumb comes to mind. That has everything to do with aesthetics and nothing to do with theory.

Don

Originally posted by godoze
ok Bruce

Rimsky Kosakovs "Night on Bald Mountain."

THe scene is a witchs's gathering. An orgy really. The peice starts out nicely with the strings and builds to climax with the witches themselves. All becomes quiet at the end.

See ? I did it.



No you didn't!!

That is not "talking meaningfully about some aspect of composition"

That is just a very simplified description of an existing piece of well-known music and says nothing about the compositional process that Rimsky Korsakov went through or anything at all to do with how it was composed.

Originally posted by godoze
Theory in itself is nebulous and a bit removed from the real world.


I disagree - this is an opinion, not a fact - theory is directly related to the creation of music or it is not worth studying - it is not an academic exercise but a way of describing music creation.


YOu can talk about comps without talking about theory. for instance, if you are commenting on a graphical notation you may be talking about the artistic beauty of the score; George Crumb comes to mind. That has everything to do with aesthetics and nothing to do with theory.


I disgree - the very fact you are looking at a score implies some involvement of music theory - what is a score but the manifestation of some theory for creating music!!

I really think that you can discuss composition outside of the realms of theory. Theory is only a part.

I understand godoze's point when he says that theory is a bit separated from the real world. It is in a way - it's abstract. That is, theory is just a meaning that we've laid on top of music in order to describe it. An incredibly useful one, no doubt, but it is abstract. The theory is not at the root of the music, the music is at the root of the theory. Bruce, you said "what is a score but the manifestation of some theory for creating music!!". That's just it, I don't think it's the case that you have a theory for creating music as such, you create music, and use theory to describe it, or to 'bring it through' - if you see what I mean.

Originally posted by moley
That's just it, I don't think it's the case that you have a theory for creating music as such, you create music, and use theory to describe it, or to 'bring it through' - if you see what I mean.

That's exactly what I mean - so in this forum we can only "describe" the process using the language of music theory. When we talk about composition we are by definition, using or creating music theory.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


That's exactly what I mean - so in this forum we can only "describe" the process using the language of music theory. When we talk about composition we are by definition, using or creating music theory.

Yes - but discussion on composition is not limited to music theory. It's a part of it, not all of it.

Originally posted by moley


Yes - but discussion on composition is not limited to music theory. It's a part of it, not all of it.

I disagree - what part can you discuss, that is not related to music theory?

Bruce,

The BIGGEST part of composition that has nothing to do with theory is CREATIVITY !!!

CREATIVITY is a native talent...

You could disagree with that if you want but it would be purely for arguments sake.

Look, I could teach you all the theory in the world but withought a practical application (a composition) it is the same as handing a monkey wrench to a 3 year old -he has no idea what it is or what it does.

Originally posted by godoze
Bruce,

The BIGGEST part of composition that has nothing to do with theory is CREATIVITY !!!

CREATIVITY is a native talent...

You could disagree with that if you want but it would be purely for arguments sake.

Look, I could teach you all the theory in the world but withought a practical application (a composition) it is the same as handing a monkey wrench to a 3 year old -he has no idea what it is or what it does.


I agree with you but how can you talk meaningfully about creativity in a forum like this - you either have it or you don't - end of story!!

Of course with theory you teach its application as well - and that application is composition - whether spontaneous or planned!!

BRuce,

Compostion is the application of creativity... How can you NOT talk about creativity in a composition forum ?

You are making the process of composing too cut and dried... It's not that simple my friend.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


I disagree - what part can you discuss, that is not related to music theory?

Well...

You can discuss techniques and approaches for composing. People could get advice on approaches for their own composition - as well as suggestions for reading material. Also sources of inspiration for musical composition can be discussed.

You can also discuss issues related to arrangement - like tone colour of instruments, and general ideas to with arrangement, and technical aspects such as ranges of instruments. There are plenty of TBers who play instruments other than bass who could help out in this area.

Issues such as lyrics can also be discussed. The lyrics themselves (I'm sure there are plenty of Tbers who write or have written lyrics or poetry, or have knowledge in this field who can help others) - and the way the lyrics fit with the melody and the harmony etc. etc.

And, as I've said before, people can post recordings of their work for constructive critisicm and advice.

Arguably some of these things are related to theory - but they're not directly issues of music theory - and they're not a part of this banner called theory. They don't belong bundled in with Theory, I believe. These things are *not* along the same lines as the theory questions that get asked e.g. "what is F13?" "What are modes?", "What is the melodic minor" etc.

Originally posted by moley


Well...

You can discuss techniques and approaches for composing.


That's Music Theory!!


People could get advice on approaches for their own composition - as well as suggestions for reading material. Also sources of inspiration for musical composition can be discussed.


That's appropriate to the recordings forum!! ;)




You can also discuss issues related to arrangement - like tone colour of instruments, and general ideas to with arrangement, and technical aspects such as ranges of instruments.

That's Music Theory!!


Issues such as lyrics can also be discussed. The lyrics themselves (I'm sure there are plenty of Tbers who write or have written lyrics or poetry, or have knowledge in this field who can help others) - and the way the lyrics fit with the melody and the harmony etc. etc.


That's songwriting NOT composition!!


And, as I've said before, people can post recordings of their work for constructive critisicm and advice.


That's recordings again!!

Originally posted by godoze

You are making the process of composing too cut and dried... It's not that simple my friend.

But I'm not talking about composing itself - although that can be very simple - but rather talking about composing in a forum like this - which is the point you seem to be missing all the time.

bruce,
do you consider writing the music for a vocal work composition ? i.e., songwriting ?

then what the hell are you talking about ????????

a composition forum deals with composition... and my friend, believe me ,you certainly can talk about composing, in whatever terms people understand. I know way too many composers that talk too much.

To say that nothing meaningful could be gotten out of a composition forum that didn't have a theory component is short sighted.

sorry for the frustration...

Originally posted by godoze
bruce,
do you consider writing the music for a vocal work composition ? i.e., songwriting ?

No different to any other composing - but writing lyrics is not "music composition"!!

Originally posted by godoze
then what the hell are you talking about ????????



Well it's clear you don't understand my point - I think you might as well give up!

You still haven't provide me with an example that isn't related directly to music theory, that could be talked about meaningfully in a forum like this.

i agree with you on that; being a lyricist is not the same as being a composer.

Please, in the simplest and most concise terms possible, for I am a simpleton and understand very little
, explain exactly what your point is so that I can continue to disagree with you.

thanks in advance...
Dz

Originally posted by godoze


a composition forum deals with composition... and my friend, believe me ,you certainly can talk about composing-

But my point is that what you will be saying is all "music theory"!!

actually, you know what; I do not care anymore so i will ignore this thread...

Good luck Moley...

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Originally posted by moley

Well...

You can discuss techniques and approaches for composing.


That's Music Theory!!

No it's not! You misunderstand me. I'm talking about things like *how* you compose, how you go about it - not the technical aspects, but physical, emotional, mental...

People could get advice on approaches for their own composition - as well as suggestions for reading material. Also sources of inspiration for musical composition can be discussed.


That's appropriate to the recordings forum!!

How is reading material appropriate to the recordings forum? And when I said sources of inspiration I wasn't only talking about music - it could be anything. And besides, you can draw inspiration from music that isn't recorded.

You can also discuss issues related to arrangement - like tone colour of instruments, and general ideas to with arrangement, and technical aspects such as ranges of instruments.

That's Music Theory!!

No it's not!

Issues such as lyrics can also be discussed. The lyrics themselves (I'm sure there are plenty of Tbers who write or have written lyrics or poetry, or have knowledge in this field who can help others) - and the way the lyrics fit with the melody and the harmony etc. etc.


That's songwriting NOT composition!!

Eh? Geez, now you're saying songwriting isn't composition. I really think that's bull****. Songwriting is composition, and the idea was that the forum would include songwriting - and earlier in the thread it was suggested it could be Composition/Songwriting . How can you differentiate composition and songwriting. Plenty of classical (in the general sense) composers wrote songs. Would you consider that to be composition?[B]

And, as I've said before, people can post recordings of their work for constructive critisicm and advice.

That's recordings again!!

Yeah - like I said before, my idea was that that could be put in the composition forum so we can separate things about existing recordings from recordings of TBer's own work. Like I said before - specialization.

You were talking about "the lyrics themselves" and I was just saying this doesn't belong in composition - I wasn't saying that composition isn't part of songwriting !! :rolleyes:

Well I don't see why lyrics shouldn't be a part of it. Lyrics are a part of songwriting, and songwriting was intended to be a part of the forum.

Well - where do lyrics come into bass playing?

It doesn't, directly. But, notice that lyrics are talked about on this site anway - and people do post their own lyrics. Lyrics come into bass playing insofar as bass players write songs, and the songs have lyrics.

Originally posted by moley
It doesn't, directly. But, notice that lyrics are talked about on this site anway - and people do post their own lyrics. Lyrics come into bass playing insofar as bass players write songs, and the songs have lyrics.

I agree, mostly because a lot of us are musicians/artist above bassists, which may include lyricist/poet. I totally support your idea moley.

I feel like i'm watching a bad game of tennis,,, the ball goes to Bruce,,, then i turn my head as he wacks it back to moley.....who in turn makes me watch as it gets wacked back to bruce, and so on.
No ones making any points..... POINTS.......

Well I still think it should be Music Theory and Composition - I see far more threads which are music theory-related - every other day somebody asks about music theory - but only very rarely is there a thread about composition.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Well I still think it should be Music Theory and Composition - I see far more threads which are music theory-related - every other day somebody asks about music theory - but only very rarely is there a thread about composition.

*Head moves toward left....*

By the by, i agree with you. your side makes perfect sense. a topic is not ging to just "Pop" up and people will start talking about it all of the sudden. I have seen MANY threads on music theory, and support your name.

Originally posted by Matt Till


I agree, mostly because a lot of us are musicians/artist above bassists, which may include lyricist/poet. I totally support your idea moley.

Cheers Matt :)

Originally posted by moley


Cheers Matt :)

Well - if you look back to the very first page of this thread, Matt was the only person to support your idea there as well ....hmmmmm (thinks) - have you bribed him somehow - promised him a co-moderator job? Corruption, corruption!! :)

According to Polly - it's 30-15 to me!! ;)

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Well - if you look back to the very first page of this thread, Matt was the only person to support your idea there as well ....hmmmmm (thinks) - have you bribed him somehow - promised him a co-moderator job? Corruption, corruption!! :)

You mean other than l0calh05t, wulf, ashton, deadweeds, and godoze who all supported the idea too? I suppose I bribed them too... :rolleyes:

According to Polly - it's 30-15 to me!! ;)

There you go again with all yer winning/losing stuff :rolleyes:

I was just pointing out how similar the very first page of this thread was, to the last one!! :D

And it was Polly who suggested the tennis analogy!!

Oi! I was also there on page one, happy for it to go ahead.

Could we 'suck it and see'? If nobody posts, or it ends up mainly being theory posts, merge it back in with GI.

Wulf

Yeah, sounds like a good idea. I don't know how much support for it Paul wants before he tries it out though...

thnks Moley... i got that case of absinthe... oh wait, i wasn't supposed to say that..

well, i still think they should be separate.

they are inextricably linked and they can be talked about togther, but why can't they be two forums ? Bruce ? Would you be opposed to a theory forum AND a compostion forum ?

If so, Why ? What is your vested interest in a combined forum ?

I think that Music theory can sty at General Instruction, since that is the main use of GI anyways and then just rename GI, but I do think a Composition forum would be really nice

good point 10cal, or gi could be " gi/theory"

Yeah. I think GI should be renamed to Theory - or General Instruction/Theory or something, and then have a separate Composition & Arrangement one.

moley ! moley ! moley !


i love arranging; when i was in graduate school that was one of my favorite courses. we had to turn chopin nocturnes into string quartets ! very cool.:)

Yeah I love arranging too. When I was in college I had to do one for my A-Level music. If I recall, I did a big band arrangement of "It Don't Mean A Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing" - which is Ellington, of course. They just gave us the tune and chords, and we had to arrange it. That was fun. I think I did an arrangement of a Grieg piano piece for a wind ensemble too.

Originally posted by godoze
thnks Moley... i got that case of absinthe... oh wait, i wasn't supposed to say that..

well, i still think they should be separate.

they are inextricably linked and they can be talked about togther, but why can't they be two forums ? Bruce ? Would you be opposed to a theory forum AND a compostion forum ?

If so, Why ? What is your vested interest in a combined forum ?

No - I said throughout that I think a Theory forum is the priority - there are far more threads that come up about theory than about composition.

But I said I thought that if there were loads of composition threads coming up in the theory forum then I can see no objection to having separate forums.

Of course - I don't believe that in practice there will be! ;)

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


No - I said throughout that I think a Theory forum is the priority - there are far more threads that come up about theory than about composition.


Yeah - but they're all in GI, where they belong. They have a home. Why do we need another forum for 'em? Surely GI (although it could do with renaming) is exactly the place for 'em?

Originally posted by moley


Yeah - but they're all in GI, where they belong. They have a home. Why do we need another forum for 'em? Surely GI (although it could do with renaming) is exactly the place for 'em?

Well as I mentioned "General Instruction" to me implies a basic level of teaching or generally things about teaching or getting lessons. I think it can also imply technique-type queries and that making it Theory would clarify its relationship with The Technique forum.

The only thing then, is that Theory is not instrument-specific so does it sit somewhere "between" BG and DB ? DB doesn't have a Theory forum either!!

I also think and have repeated ad nauseam ;) that the vast majority and possibly all threads that talk about composition will be appropriate under the heading "Music Theory" - I still cannot imagine and have not been given a thread title that would be appropriate for the heading "Composition" but not "Music Theory" ........

As an example - look at "Music Theory Online" - journal of the Society of Music Theory :

http://www.societymusictheory.org/mto/


If you search for "Composition" -you will find 406 articles about composition - and even amongst those not explictly stated, most are talking about how a certain composer, composed a particular piece of music.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Well as I mentioned "General Instruction" to me implies a basic level of teaching or generally things about teaching or getting lessons. I think it can also imply technique-type queries and that making it Theory would clarify its relationship with The Technique forum.

Yeah, it does, it's not a helpful name. But, as it says in the FAQ - GI is for theory questions. So all it needs is a rename.

The only thing then, is that Theory is not instrument-specific so does it sit somewhere "between" BG and DB ? DB doesn't have a Theory forum either!!

Yeah - same problem with Recordings, Recording Gear & Equipment, Misc, and Off Topic for example. Theory is far from the only topic that's not instrument specific. These forums are not specfically for BG or DB, but they have to be in one side or the other, or be duplicated in both. I don't really use the DB side - but I can only assume that since it doesn't have a GI, that theory questions don't crop up over there too often? Anyway - that's how it is. If the DB side doesn't have a theory forum, then it doesn't have a theory forum. If you wanna champion a theory forum for the DB side - that's a different matter. I can't say whether it needs one or not. But anyhow - the issue here was the BG side. I was suggesting Composition & Arrangement . And we do already have a theory forum in the BG side, it's just not very helpfully named - but it's stated purpose is theory.

[B]I also think and have repeated ad nauseam ;) that the vast majority and possibly all threads that talk about composition will be appropriate under the heading "Music Theory" - I still cannot imagine and have not been given a thread title that would be appropriate for the heading "Composition" but not "Music Theory" ........

We've given you examples of things to discuss that don't relate directly to theory, and don't belong under the heading "Theory". In fact, the sort of thing we've proposed for subject matter for Composition is far more to do with Practice than Theory! Composition is practical. So it's not just another part of theory. And as for posting recordings of our own compositions (which I've mentioned lots of times) - how does that fit under "Music Theory"? I've given actual examples of threads with just that purpose - and you still say you haven't been given a thread title that would not be appropriate for Music Theory...

theory is certainly not instrument specific. the utopian scenario would be to have ,imo, the composition forum to be shared by bg/db; as i think so should a theory forum.

i know that i play and compose for both.


Bruce, i understand what you are saying; but there are those among us who will never go to a theory forum (me, for example) but would definitely go to a composition forum.

the audience is broad and vast in its knowldege levels.

some of us would use both and others will not.
some would go to theory but never to composition.

don't you think the members deserve a choice ?

Originally posted by moley


We've given you examples of things to discuss that don't relate directly to theory, and don't belong under the heading "Theory".

I disagree with any of the examples that have been posted here so far - I just think they are about Music Theory.

And as for posting recordings of our own compositions (which I've mentioned lots of times) - how does that fit under "Music Theory"?

Well in this case I said before - we already have a recordings and a recording equipment etc forum - I think these should go there!

Originally posted by godoze


Bruce, i understand what you are saying; but there are those among us who will never go to a theory forum (me, for example) but would definitely go to a composition forum.

the audience is broad and vast in its knowldege levels.

some of us would use both and others will not.
some would go to theory but never to composition.

don't you think the members deserve a choice ?

Well you are talking about your specific situation - that's one person (!!!) - I am talking about all the threads I have seen in 4 or 5 years of visiting this site and am saying that there are far more theory threads!!

I don't think the members "deserve" anything - most of them are "spoiled brats"!! :D

But basically it is down to Paul who has to administer all this and make it pay - I think there are questions of practicality and so far, it's only a very few people who really want a composition forum and only you and Moley who have actually engaged in this argument. ;)

Bruce,
why are you arguing so vigorously about this ? Your obstinance is curious.

Originally posted by godoze
Bruce,
why are you arguing so vigorously about this ? Your obstinance is curious.

Well - the debate is about what is the nature of "Music Theory" - my belief is that this includes composition - look at the link I gave above to "Music Theory Online" - journal of the Society of Music Theory.

I believe I am right in my understanding and nobody has said anything to persuade me otherwise yet!!

Bruce, nobody will ever say anything to persuade you otherwise in any argument you have ever had or ever will have. That is patently clear. You'll never budge on any issue.

it's only a very few people who really want a composition forum and only you and Moley who have actually engaged in this argument.

In this thread - only you and PollyBass seem to be opposing at all. Whereas me, godoze, wulf, Matt, l0calh05t, deadweeds, and ashton have been in favour of the idea.

But they haven't argued about the nature of the phrase "Music Theory" and whether it includes such things as composition.

then i'll do so now.

I think Commposition is not a part of Music Theory, Music Theory is one of the most important things (IMO) to be able to compose but it is not the only thing

Rubbish!!!



:D

.....I've got bored with this now and repeating the same things over and over - just read my previous comments! ;)

I only stated my oppinion, and i think it's fine if you have a different oppinion, but I guess we both know that I won't change your oppinion and you won't change mine (and probably not moley's oppinion either)

Thanks for your support - godoze, l0calh05t, wulf, Matt, deadweeds, ashton :)

As for everyone else... come in here and say whether you think this is a good idea or not, damnit! :D

bruce, i do no think that moley labelled this thread "let's debate the meaning of music theory." I think he suggested a composition forum. Am i wrong ?

None of us- with the exception of you- seem to be interested in arguing about the nature of the phrase "music theory." But if you really want to debate it i can send you my graduate thesis on "music theory" and then possibly we could start a new thread that deals with what you suggest ( the debate over the nature of the term.)

All of Moley's threads are an open invitation to a good argument!! I thought everybody knew that? ;)

i really think very little of what we have debated here is worthy of a "good argument." we all have our points of view, some of us parade them more vociferously than others;) , but we long ago stopped debating the forum and started debating the meaning of theory, which , as I remarked ealier was not moley's point in starting this thread.

bruce, i'll debate you 'til the cow's come home but not in this thread. we need to steer this back to the original idea.

how about a "yes/no" vote just to get the pulse of what people think ?

"yes" to a composition forum.:)

yes to a composition forum
and
yes to a renaming of GI

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
All of Moley's threads are an open invitation to a good argument!! I thought everybody knew that? ;)

Bruce, it seems that to you, everything is an open invitation to an argument. My threads are not supposed to be an open invitation to an argument, and that's certainly not why I started this thread - as godoze said.

Bump.

Opinions please people... if you think it's a good idea, say so. If you think it's a bad idea, say so. If you're indifferent, say so! Either way - I wanna know what everyone thinks.

you know what I think...;)

Hi
I noticed its been 5 pages in this thread since I last asked if I could be a mod :D

BUMP- cmon people this is the best idea ive heard since I got to these boards, help yourselves by helping others.
Lukas

Originally posted by AMADEUS MOLEY
Bump.

Opinions please people... if you think it's a good idea, say so. If you think it's a bad idea, say so. If you're indifferent, say so! Either way - I wanna know what everyone thinks.

I think that a composition forum would be a bit beyond the scope of what TB is about, but I'm biased - I have a couple of degrees in composition, and I am a firm believer in the notion that it is a subject which can't be taught, even in person. What CAN be taught is craft (theory), and we already have a forum for that - although it might be nice if the name of the forum included "theory" somehow in the description.

But as far as a distinct forum for composition, I'm not sure I see the need. Especially when composition is best discussed (from my experience) while studying a score (viable scenario), listening to a specific musical example (viable scenario), or both (best case).

As always, Brad Johnson could be wrong.

I like the idea of a Composition forum. People can post Notation or MP3 of their work and be critiqued. There is definatnyl a difference between REcordings and personal comps.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield

And it was Polly who suggested the tennis analogy!!

YES YES! and so the game continues i see....
But it is ALOT more fun to watch than tv.;)

I am all for it...I think it would be a useful thing for lots of TB'ers.

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald


I think that a composition forum would be a bit beyond the scope of what TB is about, but I'm biased - I have a couple of degrees in composition, and I am a firm believer in the notion that it is a subject which can't be taught, even in person. What CAN be taught is craft (theory), and we already have a forum for that - although it might be nice if the name of the forum included "theory" somehow in the description.

But as far as a distinct forum for composition, I'm not sure I see the need. Especially when composition is best discussed (from my experience) while studying a score (viable scenario), listening to a specific musical example (viable scenario), or both (best case).

As always, Brad Johnson could be wrong.

That's exactly what I meant and have been trying to explain - all that you can actually talk about here is the theory behind composition - the limitations of an online forum mean that it is only music theory that would be discussed.

That's more like it... keep 'em coming, folks :)

well, since everyone is going to start "throwing down " I have a couple of composition degrees myself.

While I agree that only the craft can be taught, and not the creative process, you certainly can talk about composition withought having a score in front of you...

How many concerts have you been to , if indeed you are a composer you have certainly been in this position, where you hear a new work and then the composer talks about it for 20 minutes ? The audience is not studying a score, they are relating the composers comments to the sonic phenomena that they just expereinced.

I do not see how this forum would be beyond the scope of TB. I play new music for the BG, I get paid by univeristies and colleges to play solo
concerts of new music for the Bg. How is that not relevant ? We all have different experiences as bassists.

I compose, as do many other i think, for the bg.

How is this beyond the scope ? What is the scope exactly ?

i didn't mean to sound pompous in that last post... sorry. I'm just very passionate about composition, and take it very seriously.:)

But the point is all you have here is writing! Any writing about music is music theory!!

OK at a seminar, you can play examples and talk about them - say, this is what I mean - you can't do that here!!

Wasn't that one of moley's suggestions - that people could post links to sound files so that we could hear what was being discussed?

As I recall, you've said that you aren't able to playback the sounds when you're checking Talkbass, but it could still be valuable for a large number of people.

Wulf

bruce, do you mean that literally that all writing about music is theory ? I assume you are not including musicologists , since you can obviuosly do a musicological study withought the mention of theory.

As I have said many times - the limitations of this kind of forum mean that anything written here about the process of composition, will necessarily be music theory about the craft - you can't really talk about anything else - anyway just read Chris F's post again - that's exactly what I mean!

Originally posted by BULLDOZE
well, since everyone is going to start "throwing down " I have a couple of composition degrees myself.

While I agree that only the craft can be taught, and not the creative process, you certainly can talk about composition withought having a score in front of you...

I never said you couldn't. I just believe that it's best to have specific and immediate examples either in front of you (score) or in your ears (recording or performance). Here we have neither. :)

How many concerts have you been to , if indeed you are a composer you have certainly been in this position, where you hear a new work and then the composer talks about it for 20 minutes ? The audience is not studying a score, they are relating the composers comments to the sonic phenomena that they just expereinced.

I've been fortunate enough to attend many such masterclasses, the most helpful of which were given by Ligeti, Corigliano, Rzewski, and Joan Tower. But in each case all of the people attending had just collectively experienced a common piece of music. We can't do that here at TB.

I do not see how this forum would be beyond the scope of TB. I play new music for the BG, I get paid by univeristies and colleges to play solo
concerts of new music for the Bg. How is that not relevant ? We all have different experiences as bassists.

I compose, as do many other i think, for the bg.

How is this beyond the scope ? What is the scope exactly ?

I only meant that the scope of TB is its format. I certainly don't have any huge objection to anyone discussing such things here, but I'd probably not be too inclined to participate if I had to wait 20 minutes to download a piece of music and then type about it, that's all.

good point....I wouldn't wait either...and you what what - here comes the confessions of a composer/performer; I t actually bores me to death to listen to people talk about their works. Music is after all a sonic expereince. Just let me hear the music, i really do not care how you composed it, what the pre-compositional process is, or how many times the I-Ching was consulted.

I just want to hear music...

wheew....sorry about that rant.

I'm starting to agree with the "inverterate dissenter.";)

I think the subject may be a bit too obtuse and protracted, not to mention, 100% subjective, to deal with effectively in this format.

Sorry Moley...

I 'd be happy to talk
with you anytime re:composing.

chris, do you like Frederic's piece, "Attica ?"

Originally posted by godoze
I'm starting to agree with the "inverterate dissenter.";)

I think the subject may be a bit too obtuse and protracted, not to mention, 100% subjective, to deal with effectively in this format.


I think this is at the heart of what I was trying to say - so you can't explain the subjective, abstract parts to other people in words - but you can mention things like : "this chord resolves to this one because" - but that's music theory.

Originally posted by wulf
Wasn't that one of moley's suggestions - that people could post links to sound files so that we could hear what was being discussed?

As I recall, you've said that you aren't able to playback the sounds when you're checking Talkbass, but it could still be valuable for a large number of people.

Bingo!

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Any writing about music is music theory!!

Then why don't we just have a Theory forum and do away with Misc and GI completely? Perhaps Music [DB] could go the same way too? :rolleyes:. Your definition of theory seems so broad, that it could include all of this. Sure, we could stuff it all in an all-encompassnig Theory forum - but specialization was the reason I suggested the Composition thing in the first place.

And FWIW, I really don't agree that "Any writing about music is music theory".

Originally posted by godoze
chris, do you like Frederic's piece, "Attica ?"

I don't know that one - I'm most familiar with "The Silence of Infinite Spaces" and Ursula Oppen performance of "The People United" (English translation) piano variations, which I find absolutely brilliant. What is "Attica" like?

"Attica" is for Bg and voice . the bg part is very minimalist - and it goes on for ten pages or so ...

Ladies and Gentlemen:

why not a "music" forum as in DB ? They ask about compositions in there; why not do the same here ? After all "music" is a pretty broad topic.:)

And to say that that wouldn't apply to bg would just be hypocritical.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Well - if you look back to the very first page of this thread, Matt was the only person to support your idea there as well ....hmmmmm (thinks) - have you bribed him somehow - promised him a co-moderator job? Corruption, corruption!! :)



I uhhh... don't know what you're talking about. :confused:

i juz7 7h1Nk 7HeRRy 1z 4 sUX

...Bumpification...

Hi
well this thread has 7 pages, thats gotta count for something.

(bumpalacious)

Yeah - but what do you know - you think they took away the post counts - whereas if you look left, they are quite clearly still there!! ;)

...Bumperoo...

I'd like a place to talk about compositions. Right now, I don't know what the right place to post would be. I could just pick one, but people looking to talk about compositions don't know where to look for such threads either, so I would guess my thread would sink to the "back pages" :) pretty fast. There are already a good number of forums though so I'm not sure adding another is so good.

It seems to me as if General Instruction could be renamed Theory and Composition. What else to instruction is there? Technique, which has its own forum already. Most of the GI discussion is theory, this just adds Composition so people have a good guide as to where to discuss that.

Originally posted by geshel

It seems to me as if General Instruction could be renamed Theory and Composition. What else to instruction is there? Technique, which has its own forum already. Most of the GI discussion is theory, this just adds Composition so people have a good guide as to where to discuss that.

I would agree with this entirely!! :)