Alrightly there Steve,
I trust you had enjoyed the hols?!

I recently found a potential reason to buy one of those nice loop boxes you use so 'effectively'.

Anyway, I was looking at the Line6 DL4 - is that the model? - Which I believe you have is that right? Anyway, how is it, does it glitch or break down frequently or have a too short a loop or something else bad?!
Or is it generally easy to use, sound good, low noise etc?

Anyone else please feel free to post experiences - especially if you're selling one ;)

ta
H

Hi Howard,

I've got one of these thingys (also use it mostly for looping purposes) and it suits my looping needs almost perfectly. Granted I haven't tested out a great number of loopers, but around here the DL4 had the most features for the money and was easy enough to use.

In terms of the looper, it's pretty simple - the drawback is that you're stuck with whatever loop you get and can't edit it. The only thing that really bugs me about the DL4 is that you can't combine the delays with the looper, which is too bad.

All in all, as someone who's just breaking the surface of the solo bass scene, this has been my most useful tool so far.

Hope this helps...

As I recall, Steve managed to break his a couple of months ago (although, to be fair, he must have had hundreds of hours of use out of it) and has been so caught up with his echoplexes that he hasn't got round to replacing it yet.

I've also got one, not broken (and not for sale, either ;) ) and find it very useful. You can get a maximum of 28 seconds of loop, which is enough for a lot of purposes. My 'wishlist' would be:

- more looping time (at 80bpm, you 20 bars per minute or ten bars in 30 seconds... so you can't lay down a backing more than about 8 or 9 bars long at that tempo)

- an undo button to take back the last layer added (not only to remove silly mistakes but also so you could add a texture, play over it, and then take it away again)

- more than one loop available (eg. letting you have seperate verse and chorus sections)

- a way to use the other delay effects in the loop (as thrash_jazz mentioned)

However, for the price, I think it has a good range of features and is pretty intuitive to operate.

Oh yes - the other thing I'd like would be a unit with built in ears, so it can adapt to the rest of the band if they fail to lock in with your groove. I recently tried to use it for a song at church by playing 'rhythm' and 'lead' parts with different distortion settings from my Zoom pedal and then playing a bass line and singing over the top. Sounded great when I practised at home but fell apart shortly after the acoustic guitar and piano came in....

Wulf

Hi Howard - happy new year!

As Wulf said, my DL4 is currently in the 'too far gone to be fixed' bin, sadly, though I've been getting deep into what these 'ere Echoplexes can do, so haven't really missed it that much until this week - listening back to the stuff that I did with Patrick Wood last year, I realised how useful the sweep echo on there is (have a listen to the new version of Highway 1 that I added to my site earlier this week - it's got DL4 all over it...)

anyway here's a list of pros and cons -

pros - very easy to use, great delay sounds, really good sample quality, portable, 28 seconds sample time, double speed thingie is great fun as is backwards, the delay over the loop option, expression pedal control, nice sturdy box, not too expensive

cons - only 28 seconds ( :) ), can't undo, no 'feedback' control (ie loops won't fade out, unlike the Echoplex), can't use all the delay mods while you're looping.

The EDP on the other hand (EDP = Echoplex) has feedback control, replace, insert, next loop (ie, verse and chorus like Wulf said), and a whole host of cool MIDI controls... If I had to only have one, it'd be the EDP, but it's over double the price of the DL4...

As it is, I'll replace my DL4 when I can afford it, and stick with my two Echoplexes for now... :D

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk
www.stevelawson.net
www.pillowmountainrecords.co.uk
www.pmrecords.gemm.com
www.solobassnetwork.org.uk

You can get the loops to fade out on the DL4 - only problem is, you can't play while it's fading (you have to leave the record button on), nor can you adjust the fade-out speed. That would have been nice too, now that I think of it.

I'm still adding up the pros and cons of looping units but since my budget has narrowed it down to the dl4 and the rc20 (boss). I'm leaning more towards the boss just for the huge amount of looping time on it but the dl4 has all those cool noises. The rc20 might be a better option if you have some other effect units to stick infront of it. The dl4 can be easily justified if you not an idiot like me and can actually use delay and echo in a band or solo situation. I'm going to try the rc20 in a week or to and the dl4 if they've got one in, so i'll let you know if one of them makes me sound good, it will be an amazing unit hehe

Oh Steve I've kinda started a solo album I thought it was kind of cool but then went back to your stuff to get some ideas for song structure. Dear lord do I suck :D of course i'm blaming it all on only having 8 secs of looping time not my lack of ability.

Happy new year every one

Cheers chaps :)

So there's another in the same price bracket.. interesting.. I shall have to find somewhere that has them in stock and try them out me thinks.

I must admit I'm more concerned about the loop than the effects at this stage, but that said delay etc is pretty darned cool, even if real difficult to use.

There's a boss dealer in Reading town centre - I shall swing by at lunch and get a price, and my local rehearsal room is a line6 dealer.

Hey TaySte_2000 - do keep me up to date and I'll do the same :)

So wulf - you say it's pretty tricky to use the loop in a band situation... I had a feeling it would be.... but imagine the results... being able to play two basslines with a band... bwa-ha-ha-haaaaa!!!!

OK here's a link top the boss loop unit. It sounds a hell of a lot more powerful than the DL6... 5.5 mins of loop, overdubing for more than one part per loop, it will store up to TEN phrases and - a real beauty - a quantise function. Not sure how handy the click would be tho... live it would be a bit cack surely?

http://www.rolandus.com/products/details.asp?CatID=3&SubCatID=21&ProdID=RC-20

Sounds damned good tho.. if the loop quality is high enough. I expect it is?

I swear there's more websites at the end of Steve's posts each time :)

I was just thinking about this last night and I reckon TWO DL4's is what you need... :D There must be more ways to capitalise on the fact that the DL4 has separate left and right inputs which stay separate...

Bass -> DL4 #1
DL4 #1 LEFT output -> DL4 #2 Input
DL4 #1 RIGHT output -> mixer/crossfader
DL4 #2 LEFT (mono) output -> mixer/crossfader

Expression pedal linked to DL4#1 so that you can control effects, loop settings (delay +/-) etc. DL4#2 loop running "dry".

This would allow you to either have section A in DL4#1 and section B in DL4#2 or use effects in #1, loops in #2. You could also use the expression pedal on #1 to fade in/out a loop over another in #2. The only problem/added bonus is synching the two. Ooh the possibilities.

Howard - sorry went off on one there.

I have a DL4. Not long after I got it the Record stomp button/switch went on the fritz but I sent it back for repair and they replaced all switches on it. It has worked fine since.

I can recommend getting the DL4 - it's a nice little unit and the "effects" on it can be tweaked to get some nice chorus like sounds and even a "flange" style of effect. I think the expression pedal is worth having too since it allows you to move between any two extremes of knob settings. For example you can use it to fade in/out, or to have a "dry" and delayed effect on the loop. The way the DL4 handles the inputs means that you can have two basses plugged in at once and the looper/effects will handle the sum of both signals.

Whatever you go for, loopers are cool bits of kit, and very useful practice tools.

... in next weeks seminar, Mike, will tell us all how to build a simple a time machine, that doubles as the perfect chorus pedal!!


Blimey O'Riley, that sounds complex... but, correct me if I'm wrong, the DL6 loop time is halved if you use both inputs, ie. create a stereo loop? I'm guessing here...

Just tried to get a price on the Boss RC-20 - no chance, my local dealer is utterly half-arsed, if anyone can get a UK price do let me know...

I haven't noticed loop time being affected by having two inputs. I have used it as a way of having two basses plugged in at once - I haven't experimented with sending the output signal into two different directions (only having the one amp to feed it into ;) ).

I'll be interested if you can get a UK price for the Boss unit - one of those paired with a DL-4 might make a good set (the DL-4 is round about £200).

Wulf

£200 that's a bargain!

I reckon the RC-20 might be a bit more, probly £300 to make a comparative guess.

Still, if it's £300 or less I'll snap one up!

www.dawsons.co.uk

they have them in and there really good guys

oh they have it for 250 quid which is quite a good price cos normally dl4's cost 230+ you'll have to do a lot of shopping around to get them for 300

Howard,

the RC-20 and DL4 are completely different beasts - the save function on the RC-20 means that it works as much as a backing tape as anything else, if that's what you want. The click is problematic in that it doesn't have a separate output, so if you've got it on, it'll be coming out of your bass amp and the PA! that's no use! The quantise allows you to start and stop on the beat (click) nearest where you click it...

The 5 minute thing is cool, though I still don't often use loops that would be too long for the DL4 except when multiplying loops in the Echoplex...

Certainly try them both out, but for my money, the DL4 is a far more intuitive 'musical' box...

steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Hmm. I'll defo have to try both...

I'd have thought the fact you cant overdub on a live loop in the DL4 is the limiting factor that can be achieved on the RC-20?

It'd be nice to be able to loop a chord progression, add a bassline, then solo etc etc...

Am I missing something here??

You can overdub a live loop on the DL-4 as many times as you want. The limitation is that once something is added, you can't take it away. Eg.

- Record on
- Play a short chord sequence
- Tap record to close the loop - anything else will now be an overdub
- Play a bass line to anchor the chords
- Tap record off and then solo for a couple of repeats
- Tap record on and add some floating harmonics
- Tap record off and solo again

So far, so good... but what if you want to play another solo without the harmonics in the background? Your only option is to rebuild the loop from scratch - if each loop is fifteen seconds long, that's thirty seconds of rebuilding. Although you're thinking of conceptual layers, everything is being painted on a flat surface. The only way round that with the DL-4 is to have two of them :eek:

That's why I'd be interested to try both pedals together - probably with the DL-4 first and the RC-20 following it in the chain. Even aside from the possibility of creating loops on the DL-4 and storing them / replaying them on the RC-20, I've immediately got three discrete layers to work with (each of the pedals plus playing live).

Of course, balanced against that, you've got the added weight of an additional pedal, not to mention having to come up with a good reason for going to the expense of getting a second pedal...

Would the echoplex allow the kind of flexibility I'm envisaging with the two pedals, and how much would that cost?

Wulf

...and it's 28 seconds total loop time on the DL4 is that right?

That's quite a lot... and as Steve says I cant imagine many chord sequences running over 28 seconds... although I think I have one or two?

I had some success working with Strings Direct (www.stringsdirect.co.uk). They sell both Line 6 and Boss effects units, and offer to beat the price of any other dealer. Try giving them a call and see what they can do for you. I got a Line 6 DL4, power supply unit and expression pedal for about £230 (if my memory serves). They're also pretty good about ordering up stuff that they don't have in stock (6 string sets of TI Acousticores!).

There are many chord sequences that I'd like to set up in the DL4 where it just doesn't have enough time (verse-chorus usually). This is where we delve into an old thread about using ambiguous chords/notes that would fit both verse and chorus, thus allowing you to set up a loop which will cover both.

28 seconds in 'half-time' mode (14 in normal mode). The problems come either when you're working at a slow tempo or to work on a song with multiple sections (even if it's just as simple as verse / chorus).

Therefore, the DL-4 is a good practise tool for a short sequence (say the A section of 'Autumn Leaves') but if I want to practise soloing over (or walking under) the whole song I can't have backing all the way through because it is in the form AABA - the only way to do it would be to play one of the sections unaccompanied.

However, just because it doesn't make the tea, doesn't mean that it's not a very useful tool to have available.

Wulf

Well, www.millenium-music.co.uk has the DL4 for £199...

...actually the site is well worth a visit, but dont expect to leave withjout buying something!

i think the longer loop time is a must really, but given steve's comment aboutthe dl4 being more intuitive i need to try both before i buy.

Using a delay pedal (Time machine) as a perfect chorus, and other effects.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47797

Ha! :D

MillenNium - where were you a couple of years ago when the word was plastered all over the place (of course, it helps that my office is situated in the grandly titled 'Millennium Suite' ;) )?

Try this link (http://www.millennium-music.biz/home/products.pl?ProductCode=LIN007&mode=detail&subcategory_id=EFFECTS) which takes you straight to the DL-4 (indeed at £199.99 - although I'm not sure on the postage).

Wulf

where were you a couple of years ago when the word was plastered all over the place

...actually I was on the planet zarg resolving an interplanetary dispute for the Blurgons. They had their millennium about 6 trillion years ago...

Mmmnnn... yes that would explain a lot. Thanks for clearing up the confusion ;)

Wulf

right then.. my local music store said the RRP is £249 - which aint half bad I think... the only problem is that he said Boss are nightmare and the wholesaler said they had no idea when they could get any in the country...

So if anyone knows where i might be able to try/get one do let me know!

It doesn't take the most standard of power inputs. For about a year and a half, I was using a cheap multi-adaptor that could be switched to different voltages for different devices. That cost about £10 and worked fine but was very heavy.

Then it stopped working - initially I thought there was a problem with pedal but other devices also didn't work with it. I guess it either broke entirely or the connector got so worn it couldn't send a consistent signal.

I tried rechargeable batteries but decided they were too unreliable for anything except home use. Therefore, I ended up splashing out about £15 for the Line 6 adapter. It's small, light and does the job, so I'm happy with that.

If you do use another power source, you need to feed it 9V DC at 1200 mA minimum.

Wulf

If you check the manual - you could get one online if you dont have the original - it will tell you the power specs etc... then go to Maplins or Radio Shack and askk the spotty teenager and he'll get you the power supply and whatever else you need... you might have to solder a new plug on it, but's it's super easy and will probably only cost you a fiver or so :)

You can fix the overall volume level by turning up the MIX knob. I'll do this if the original loop has decayed past the point of my liking.

Admittedly, looping does take a little while and a lot of practice to get down pat, but it's well worth the effort IMO.

Another method I use to get around this is to do the overdubs and then re-record the original groove. If you do it quickly enough, all overdubs should be at similar levels.

The loop only decays in volume while in record mode. If I'm playing around I'll lay down one or two layers and then go into play mode and explore over the top of that backing. If I come up with something that fits, I might drop back into record mode to add it in - the only problem being that the texture gets thicker and thicker.

You can leave it going round in play mode for hours - it's interesting to give yourself long exposure to a loop... I find that I start to notice all sorts of nuances which I missed originally.

As thrash_jazz said, you can always re-record the original groove if you feel it has got a bit buried.

Wulf

I have finally joined the world of looping nuts!

I had my Boss RC20 delivered yesterday... and very nice it is too! I went for the Boss for a number of reasons

1) I dig the idea of having 10 spaces to store loops permenantly
b) 5.5mins of loop time is excessive and I dig that too
3) I wasnt especially bothered about delay effects. I have Zoom BFX708 which crap as it may be is certainly good enough for my home use!

Anyway, this looping lark aint all that easy is it! I always suspected Steve had some sort of neural interface with his Echoplex and now I'm convinced :D

Recording the original loop is fairly tricky, I find that unless I make a special considered effort to maintain a constant tempo I'll slow or speed up by the time I reach the 1 again. Which is in itself worrying... much room for improvement there me thinks! Mind you I was trying to play parts that I'd not yet figured time sigs for, my own version of free time.. 'flaky' I think they call it ;)
I'm still getting to grips with stomping right on the 1 each time... but I've only had it a day I s'pose!

...and now I see what y'all mean about the loop fading in overdub mode. It's very noticable actually, I was surprised by this. It's not just volume either, it's clarity. Still I guess this can be compensated for with a little thought. The other tricky part is overdubbing... practices makes... er... better?!

FYI - I got it from Bonners music in Eastbourne by mail order for £219 including delivery. Not bad.

Howard,

Thanks for the update. I'll be interested to hear again in a few weeks when you've had a good chance to really get to grips with it.

Wulf

yeah cool... initial comments are

* it's VERY easy to use. one button for play, record, overdub, pedal two to stop play. either pedal held for two seconds clears loop

* three input jacks.. instrumenth, mic and one for the earphone output of a mini disc or cdplayer... which is very handy for something.. just not sure what yet?!

* sound quality on original loop is very good.. almost to good ;) shows up all those damned clicks and strings noises!
I think it will take m a little time to get the balnace of input & output level right for overdubbing

* it looks nice :) ...is pretty small & robust

instrumenth

...and this is kinda like Cremé de Menth!

OK, a week on, or thereabouts..

So here's my updated comments on the Boss RC-20

* Still very easy-to-use. No real problems yet whatsoever.

* Built in click which can be programmed to play any number of beats per bar, as long as denominator is 4... I think I tried out 11/4 last night! ...it might have been 9's?

Only problem so far with this is that when you program the click to say 7/4 for example, then record a loop, make a mistake, delete the loop, then you have to re-set the click again.

* The click works out the BPM automatically when you record a loop without it turned on - it's pretty good. Although sometimes the phrasing of a loop doesnt quite work with the automatic click.
This is probably the result of my poor timing however, that's the nature of loops I guess.

* The tap BPM function is good.

* The click has four sounds all of which are bearable. A kick-hat, a rim-shot type sound, a sort of ride sound and a deeper less noticable sound. All very useable and not at all annoying.

* Overdubbing does reduce the quality of the original loop, but this can be accomodated easily by a little tweak of the input level before recording each over dub. Not a problem at all.

* The reverse function is awesome! You can record a part forward with reverse turned on, then when you loop it will play backward.
So if you then over dub and reverse again, you get your forward bassline with a few back ward parts... very very cool fun.

* Sound reproduction is great. Really good quality - almost too good a quality!

* Still making me realise how poor my timing is!

I'd recommend it. It's a dead good pedal. I rate it thoroughly :)

well, it'll take me a zillion years to get anywhere near steve's standard!

allthough i do plan to post something online somehow when i get a piece i'm happy with.

i discovered a really cool use of the loop box yesterday by accident actually.
if you loop a bar of a drum beat. the re-play it over the original drum machine loop, you can get some awesome effects.. very very cool :)

come on then Howard, where's the MP3s???? :)

how you getting on?

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

I'm getting on fine with it... exept that I find myself just playing around with the thing for hours without actually doing anything vaguely constructive!!! :D Which is undeniabley good fun, but yet another distraction from real practicing! ;)
Actually, it's REALLY great fun.

A mate of mine gave me the 1st few pages of script for an amateur movie he is involved in as I said I'd write some music for it. It's called... this is SO cool... "Zombie Apocalypse" - so I spent 3 hours making scary noises with effects & loops the night before last :)

So far on the actual creative side I've come accross a few cool bits & bobs... and reconfimed the fact that it's very hard to stop things getting too muddy too quickly.

It's also a great working tool. I needed to write a line for a middle eight section the other day, so I looped me playing the guitar part and experimented. It's great for this kind of thing.

I jammed with a mate and once the jam was going, if I could get the loop right, it was cool.

As for MP3s.. I so want to do this. and plan to in the future, but right now I dont have any web space or means of ftp anyway. So it'll have to wait a while I guess.

DB's going good too. I'm taking it real slow learning stuff from thr Norah Jones album - dead, simple, slow and really nice to play.

Not to steal the light away from Howard's thread, but I have a question for you folks with a DL-4: is there a way to switch between loop mode and "normal" delay/fx mode? I experimented the other day with the pedal in the store and managed to get cool sounds out of the delay effects, and I also got good at looping; however, I couldn't really figure out a way to a way to get back into normal mode from the loop mode and vice versa without bending over and turning that rotary switch. Actually at one point I started pushing the switches rapidly and randomly, and I somehow managed to get back into normal mode from the loop mode, but I have no idea what I was doing.

Is what I'm looking for even possible? I would assume that it is, but I couldn't find anything in the manual that addressed this, and the retard at the store had no idea what to say other than, "Yeaaaah maaaaan, that stuff's cool. Way trippy." :rolleyes: I would hate to be looping and then have switch over not only to get out of loop mode, but to find my saved preset (or turn the selected delay effect off) before I can actually play again. :hmm:

Anyway, if any of you could give me a definitive answer, I'd appreciate it very much. I like to think I'm a smart guy, but I really hope I'm being an idiot and completely overlooking something here because this pedal is great and I really want it. :D

Hugh,

Don't worry, I think Howard's done with this thread :D

Regarding your question, the DL-4 has got 16 modes, selected by that first rotary switch. However, conceptually, you need to think of it as 15 + 1.

When you're in most of the modes, the buttons let you summon back preset sounds so, for example, you can switch from sweep echo to reverse just by stepping on one of the switches.

However, the loop mode breaks this pattern. Because you need all four foot switches to control aspects of the looping, you can't access the other sounds :eek:

Consequently, I tend to use my DL-4 in loop mode only. The other FX are fun but the loop mode is what I bought it for.

However, to be fair, you can still get a good range of effects by adjusting the delay, repeat, tweak and tweez parameters. I found it very useful to add on an expression pedal, which lets me sweep between two sets of settings without having to bend down and take my hands off the bass. Generally, I use the pedal up setting for a very clean sound with the four controls pretty much off and the pedal down setting for lots of delay and enough tweak / tweez to enrichen the sound. Alternatively, I might use two cleanish settings but taking the mix between full on and full off.

In summary, the unit can't do everything I (or probably you) would like, but is still very versatile, especially with the addition of an expression pedal.

Wulf

Don't worry, I think Howard's done with this thread

Right that's it, it's curtains for the lot of you... ;)

Actually, FYI wulf, I found one slightly annoying thing about the RC-20. The automatuic click is sh1te! - sometimes it just doesnt find the right beat, still no biggy really.

I'll post something online somewhere one day... when I'm actually good enough :rolleyes:

Thanks wulf.

So if I understand correctly, when I want to stop looping, I can just switch the loop off ("Stop"). Then if I want to use some wacky delay presets, I have to turn the switch? I guess it's not that bad. My only concern is that when I do turn the switch to first non-loop setting (eg. Tape Echo), that factory preset for that sound/delay will load up. Is there anyway to get it into normal mode without any of the presets loading up? Or, is there anyway to get one of your own saved presets to load up instead?

Thanks again.

Originally posted by Hugh Jazz
So if I understand correctly, when I want to stop looping, I can just switch the loop off ("Stop"). Then if I want to use some wacky delay presets, I have to turn the switch? I guess it's not that bad. My only concern is that when I do turn the switch to first non-loop setting (eg. Tape Echo), that factory preset for that sound/delay will load up. Is there anyway to get it into normal mode without any of the presets loading up? Or, is there anyway to get one of your own saved presets to load up instead?A slight delay there (boom-boom ;) ) - I've just been enjoying a few days away in Barcelona.

With the DL-4, you can stop looping just by twisting the rotary switch to one of the other settings - no need to stop the loop first (although I think you'll kill the loop by doing so and have to rebuild from scratch when you go back into looping mode - if you want I can experiment and post results).

You can program the unit with your own presets. I've not got round to doing this, as I primarily use the looping function, but I think you can use the first three buttons for presets, with the fourth one being reserved for the 'tap tempo' function. Again, I'm not sure if the presets can be programmed to take the expression pedal into account (so that, for example, the pedal off setting of the first pre-set would be an unaffected sound, which you could then fade into something a bit more wacky as required).

Wulf