My bass teacher doesn't want me to use the third finger of my left hand except for harmonics and high positions. He says that the 3rd finger might occasionally be appropriate in other circumstances but is too weak to be used for anything but harmonics. I have seen bass music with finger numbering that calls for ring finger ( is this the Italian method maybe?).

Do you guys use 3rd finger and is it heracy do use 3rd finger and a French bow?

Thanks!
Gabe

Originally posted by Gabe
Do you guys use 3rd finger and is it heracy do use 3rd finger and a French bow?

Thanks!
Gabe

Why? Most Italians use French bow.

Yes, the old Italian school of playing often used the 2nd and 3rd fingers together instead of just 2nd. This does make getting to the 4th finger more awkward though.

Most people tend to use the 3rd and 4th as a unit these days. There are more advanced techniques that can involve using the 3rd finger in the lower positions - particularly in the case of playing fourths across two strings - the 3rd finger might finger an E while the 2nd might finger a B. This is a more advanced technique however, and I wouldn't recommend doing stuff like that until you have had a much more solid traditional fingering background first.

Of course, the 3rd finger is used all the time to play notes in the higher positions - certainly from at least the octave point of the string and higher.

Originally posted by Rob W



Most people tend to use the 3rd and 4th as a unit these days. There are more advanced techniques that can involve using the 3rd finger in the lower positions - particularly in the case of playing fourths across two strings - the 3rd finger might finger an E while the 2nd might finger a B. This is a more advanced technique however.....


Wow. After all this time I've spent doing just that, I finally find out I'm not wrong, just advanced. Thanks Rob!

Thanks for the info.

Gabe - slight clarification - while it is true that the third finger is not used by itself, this is not because it is weak, but rather because the 4th finger is weak and requires help from the 3rd. Also, it is much more comfortable for most hands to cover a total span of three notes in the lower positions than to try to expand and get 4 - especially since inonation is so crucial. As others have said, in the higher positions, the 4th finger kind of gets put away and replaced by using just the 3rd finger. This is fundamental Simandl fingering, and there are other methods, but when people tell you to learn the basics of fingering, this is exactly what they are referring to - it will help.

You know, I never bought that logic about putting the third and fourth fingers together. Because when the fourth finger is down, all the others are down as well, regardless of whether the previous note was stopped with a second or third finger. Of course playing 3-4 is quite a stretch in, say, half to second position, which is why you'll rarely see that fingering in that range. Instead, Italian fingerings use a variety of 1-1, 1-3, and 1-4 fingerings to cover notes in that range of the instrument. I've experimented with Italian fingering just to see its own merits and faults, and this shiftiness in the lower positions is probably what has doomed it to obscurity. It's perfectly serviceable, but so is standard Simandl and Simandl is used, known, and understood everywhere. Not a lot of reason to learn or use Italian fingering unless you've got a point to prove.

Originally posted by Shlomobaruch
Not a lot of reason to learn or use Italian fingering unless you've got a point to prove.
People have so many great reasons for failing to engage all the tools that are available to them.

I use four finger/half-step fingerings as low as "5th position" when that's the way to get the job done.

Use of all the left hand fingers is neither new nor heresy, though many people who don't know how to use it will poo-poo "four finger technique". But Heck, Dragonetti used these techniques 200 years ago!

I was very lucky to have three teachers in a row who were advocates of using every technique possible in the search for good sounding, well working solutions to fingering and bowing problems. Now I see it as somewhat "limiting" when someone is unable to use four-finger or other "extended" techniques.

Gary Karr is a proponent of this technique, and his method books use it. Find information on Gary and his stuff at:
http://www.garykarr.com/purchase/fr_main.htm

Another person who has a history of being open to various techniques is Mark Morton. He has, in fact, set up an entire "school" based around being able to use many different left-hand techniques:
http://www.asodb.com/

Check these sources out, and arm yourself with all the techniques you can. The third finger is *not* too weak to be used separately. Thumb position is practical in more situations than "old schoolers" might think. Expand your horizons on your own, if lessons alone aren't doing that for you.

Originally posted by kpo
Thumb position is practical in more situations than "old schoolers" might think. Expand your horizons on your own, if lessons alone aren't doing that for you. [/B]

I couldn't agree more with this sentiment. I've recently encountered musical situations where using the thumb as low as, say, G on the D string was the practical solution and I'm surprised at how easily it works when you get past the thought of putting your thumb on the other side of the neck.

I think, Samuel, you might have misread. Or perhaps I'm misreading you, I'm not sure. I wasn't eschewing a four-finger technique. Nor was I saying "don't stick your finger in the Italian method pie" - after all, I was admitting to doing as much myself, and that the method had its own merits. I was just saying there isn't a lot of point to replacing one three-finger technique with a different, more obscure three-finger one... feeling it implictly understood that I meant using such a method *exclusively*. If you think it'll expand your realm of technical knowledge, by all means, dig in. That's why I did it myself.

I attended a master class with edgar meyer, he said he used 3rd finger and not using it is kind of stupid, but i still don't, its preference, but i guess there is more versitility with the closed open string right at the 4th finger, but it is hard and does take some getting used to especially since the third finger is pretty weak, but it will be like playing electric bass where you use 4 fingers

Check out Rabbath for more uses of the 3rd finger (and excessive use of thumb position). From my limited experience with his method (working through 1st book) he basically advocates what someone said earlier, get the job done, in time and in tune. Because most of our hands are too small he uses this whole hand pivot around the thumb. I haven't been able to get the hang of it comfortably yet.

With respect to intonation, pivoting gives me a big advantage over shifting in the beginning. But I also play the same lines the Simandl way so I can take advantage of extra hand muscle when I need it.

One of my teacher's main instrument is the cello, and when I showed the pivot trick to him like it was the latest McDonald's menu item he just yawned and said that cellists pivot all the time! Maybe there's room to make that 3rd finger get that bass cooking after all...

Anyone that says "You cannot use this finger to sound this note" should be shot. I say if it feels better to use 3rd finger, then use 3rd finger, and while you're at it, give him the middle finger (j/k), but seriously, I use 3rd finger almost all the time, especially up in 2nd position and in Thumb position (Well, you pretty much have to use 3rd finger in thumb position). I hope this was helpful.

I don't understand why most teachers say the third finger is the weakest, when the weakest finger is obviously the pinky finger. I say if it feels good, do it, as long as it's not really sloppy. I played electric before I picked up the double bass and was taught to use all four fingers for scale patterns etc., and i'm sticking with using all 4. The lead chair from the Winnipeg Symphony uses a 4 finger technique and he's one of the best double bass players i've ever met.

I do not use my 3rd finger, unless I'm playing harmonics. I still do not understand the reasons why it should not be used, I have been playing dbl bass for 8 years, and I can't find a direct answer to this. I use the Simandl method, so obiviouly you do not use 3rd finger. How ever I am also studying the Heinrich Schneikart method which uses the 3rd finger. I'm also an electric bassist, and have been playing for 14 years. I have always used my 3rd finger and still do when I play electricly. Well thats all I have to say.

Michael :confused:

As I understand it, when these three finger techniques were developed, the size of basses was highly variable, string lengths were sometimes quite long, actions were high, and strings were high tension and rough.

This was the only practical way for players to go, in the lower positions where to notes are so far apart. This situation made the tuning in 5ths even harder to deal with, when it ws popular.

Remember things were so bad for bassists, at one time, that the written parts were simplified, and sometimes the tempos were slowed, to allow the basses to keep up.

I think we forget how much easier we have it now with steel strings.

dblbassmike, I am familiar with Art Davis's 4 finger bass method book, but I do not know about Heinrich Schneikart. Can you describe it a little more, and where do you obtain a copy of it?

I come to the double bass by way of the classical guitar (and, of course, electric bass). So I think it may be easier in certain positions to use all 4 fingers, such as the crook of the neck position. However, the Simandl approach of the 4th (not the 3rd) in the lower positions and the 3rd (not the 4th) in the upper register is probably the best way to play the double bass, given the size and length of the strings, and the fact that you are playing an instrument in a vertical, not horizontal posture.

I was taught not to use the third finger too. I use it occasionally for harmonics though, so I guess I'm pretty much with the majority on this on.

Rob W notes that, "Most people tend to use the 3rd and 4th as a unit these days." My teacher advocates that as the Simandl hand position in the lower position. He believes that the Simandl "locked" hand position is extremely helpful for always finding the right notes. In the Rabbath approach, however, Rabbath advocates having all fingers working independently and fluidly, as in cello technique. He advocates using the weight of the left arm to finger each note, where the hand may "rock" if you use, first, the 1st finger, and then the 4th finger. What is wonderful still is that using his "pivot technique" (again so natural to cellists), you can slant the fingers slightly up or slightly down (depending on which direction you are moving), so each finger can work extremely independently and totally relaxed without hardly any hand muscle tension of squeezing. Having come to the bass originally from classical guitar, I find the use of Rabbath and cello technique works fantastically for the double bass, and really frees it up as a solo instrument.

I can see you play the cello as i do. The use of the 3rd finger may be obvious for us and teachers never understand it. They don't like students who have a technique they don't have... However you must be careful with this finger. It can help in some occasions but it's very difficult to play in tune using both techniques. I gave up with the 3rd finger, I only use it in Mozart K550...
Sorry for my bad English, I'm French !

I recently started studying with a great "old school" Simandl teacher. He keeps yelling at me to use my 3rd finger "as a unit" with my 4th, and I find that very awkward, but it may be just because it is new to me. Usually my 3rd finger just hangs out over the strings until I get to the 4th position where I start using a four finger method. I just don't see the logic in using 2 fingers at a time when my 4th finger does the job fine by itself, plus when the 4th is used, the 1 and 2 are usually already pressing the strings. What do you people think about the "3rd and 4th as a unit" in particular? I could understand that it was used back in the day when action was way higher........

Originally posted by delbass
... What do you people think about the "3rd and 4th as a unit" in particular?

"using the 3rd and 4th as a unit" really strengthens the fourth finger.

It's also easier to adjust and to vibrate when they are a unit, regardless of your use or lack of use of fourfinger method.

"using the 3rd and 4th as a unit" really strengthens the fourth finger.

I'm not clear on this assertion. Do you mean strenthens the 4th finger when the 4th finger finally gets used alone, or strenthens the 4th finger because the 3rd finger is allowed to provide support?

Originally posted by Johnny L
I'm not clear on this assertion. Do you mean strenthens the 4th finger when the 4th finger finally gets used alone, or strenthens the 4th finger because the 3rd finger is allowed to provide support?

I mean exactly that when you use 3rd and 4th as a unit, that equals more strength.

as in:
3rd and 4th together = strong

3rd finger alone = weaker
4th finger alone = weaker

Third and fourth are significantly less independant than first and second, and significantly less strong, so support third and fourth whenever you can to *increase* dexterity.

"Four finger technique" is great, but when you're *not* using it, don't leave 3rd or 4th unnecessarily unsupported!

"Four finger technique" is great, but when you're *not* using it, don't leave 3rd or 4th unnecessarily unsupported!
Thanks very much for clearing up my misunderstanding, KPO.

It may not be proper ettiquette, but I started on electric bass and I use the third finger frequently. It often make certain passages easier (ask the other bassist in my section who doesn't use the 3rd finger). I don't use it often, but habit brings it back into play, which is not always a bad thing.

also, with time and proper exercise. We should be ab;e to make our 3rd finger strong enough. I know a few people who have nearly equall strenght throughout their hand.

I often use my third finger for minor third intervals near the neck joint. I also find that the third finger is usually more in tune when it's used for a leading tone instead of the middle finger. I've always found it to terribly awkward to finger the sixth, seventh, and octave with 1 2 & 4 in the upper positions. Like KPO said, it's important to support it just like you would the fourth finger.

My instructor is currently ingraining the Simandle in me since I'm a first year doublebassist. However, he is a practical guy who uses what works. There is a tune he's playing in our orchestra that requires a trill kind of thing from low F to G#, I think. So he actually had to use thumb and third finger in the 1/2 position! For some reason, he hadn't thought to tune up a half step, but that's what his whole section ended up doing, playing thumb all the way up there! Just thought I'd share.

The things we must do to please uninformed composers :)

i use 4 finger technique and my pinky is very strong as well as my 3rd. Needless to say, my compatriots hate me for that.

(overture to marriage of figaro is soooo easy) lol

I dont think that it is a wrong thing but i do teach my students the simandl ways first....then the bassius method comes when a solid foundation of position and intonation is in place.

Speaking as a relative DB beginner who started on BG, I found the that Simandl technique made it much easier to locate the intervals. I tend to use that technique on BG in the lower positions now as well, particularly on fretless. I wonder how the early Fender bass player coming from the DB did it?

bassius:
(overture to marriage of figaro is soooo easy) lol
Is that lol, or is that mwaahaaahaaahaaahaa?

Now that I can do thumb position below the harmonic, I understand better why many doublebassists shy away from the 4-finger effect.

I've been studying the Bottesini Elegy off and on, and I still love doing the chromatic run 0-1-2-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-3, because the shifts get to happen on the beat. I just don't care for the pulse that occurs with 1-2-4 all the way up. Guess thumb position could work for it that way too, though.

Hi-
What is the "proper" method for trills involving the 4th finger? Do you use just the 4th, or 3+4 together? I feel like I get a better sound with just the 4th, but it may just be a bad habit. Trilling with 3+4 seems kinda awkward, but so did using 3+4 together when I first started!
-Del

Hi-
What is the "proper" method for trills involving the 4th finger? Do you use just the 4th, or 3+4 together?
-Del

Maybe personal preference will decide this for you in the end, but I always find it sounds cleaner and *more measured* when 3+4 act together, in the case of trills.

I love the 4-finger stuff, but in the end: it has to *sound* good.

My teacher hates it when I do so, but I often use the fourth finger to pick off a G harmonic ("VI position") as a pivot or extension technique when the rest of what I'm doing is a half position or more below that.

My teacher hates it when I do so, but I often use the fourth finger to pick off a G harmonic ("VI position") as a pivot or extension technique when the rest of what I'm doing is a half position or more below that.

Pete

I do that to. Except if my case, my teacher encourges it in certain curcumstances. His teacher was Eugene Levinson, who doesn't seem to be restricted by any of the existing standard methods. Generally I'm a traditionallist and feel that one should at least attempt to learn a passage using Simandl rules before discarding them all together in favor of a "what ever works best" approach. I like to play four finger technique at fourth through sixth postion. I just makes sense for a lot of things and I can play faster that way since I have spent time using 1-2-3-4 on guitar and slab.

Jon

I've just recently started using the fourth finger to reach a stopped G -- not just harmonic -- as an extension in a legato passage that ascends (slurred) E-F-G. I play it 1-2- extension to 4 on the G, then play the next three legato notes coming down, (slurred) F-E-D, using 4-2-extension to 1. Keeps me from having to shift in the middle of each of the slurs, and it works pretty well.

Hi ! This is very interesting.

In both Nanny and Vance methods, the 3rd finger is not used in the lower positions. But I agree with many of you, get the job done, whatever it takes. I tend to use the 3rd finger for forths with the 2nd or the 4th finger, or whenever instinctivly, this finger volunteers ! I also use low thumb positions. The "So what" riff is so easier that way.

I wish to add to this reflection that the technique without the 3rd finger tends to get more naturally the notes in good intonation. Stretching the hand can be really effective but requires extra care in matters of pitch.

I rather use the 3rd finder in jazz pizz than in bowin situation.