I'm looking to get one of these or othe cheap upright just to learn on. I want to hear what all you guys think about these cheap basses? How well are they made, and sound?

Originally posted by BassGreaser
I'm looking to get one of these or othe cheap upright just to learn on. I want to hear what all you guys think about these cheap basses? How well are they made, and sound?
Well-made... Not
Sound... also Not.
Re-sale Value - None

Check the Newbie Links at http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43093

Cheap Chinese Basses, ESPECIALLY Cremona, Palatino, Brownstone, and any other made by the same Crap Factory are not a good deal.

Not all Chinese basses come from that factory, and the ones that don't range from "Marginally Better" to "Really Good".

Of course, the Really Goods are priced accordingly, starting at about $1500 for a Christopher, and going up to several thousand bucks for other models & brands.

If you're looking for a plywood bass, spend about $1000-$1500 for a non-Chinese. You can get a Strunal at www.cutting-edgemusic.com for $1100, or an Engelhardt from www.urbbob.com for about the same.

You'll be less likely to want to sell either one of them, and more able to sell them if you want to.

I saw a couple of Kays on Ebay just recently for under $1000. If you keep an eye out locally, you can also find acceptable plywoods in the $1000 or under range.

You'll get the Cremona, spend enough on it to get the cost up into the $1000 range, and still have a bad-sounding, non-saleable piece of junk.

You will either fail to learn to play the Cremona, and wind up throwing away all the $$$ you have in it, because nobody will buy it, OR you'll learn to play it & want a better-sounding bass in less than a year(also being unable to sell it).

If it's a choice between getting a Cremona or getting nothing at all, you might want to to see if you can find a rental, with a "rent-to-own" option.

The $650 + $100(strings) would pre-pay rent on a bass for about a year, and you apparently have that much available, or you wouldn't be asking the question. Some places that rent basses will even let you apply the rental money to a DIFFERENT bass if you want to upgrade at the end of the rental period, instead of keeping the bass you were renting.

Do not sucker yourself into thinking that the shipping strings will be good for anything more than holding the bridge in place during shipping, either. You'll give up learning in the first couple of weeks if you don't replace them. Bottom of the line for acceptable strings would be Labella Supernils, at $60.

There seems to be basically only one factory in China which produces Cremona Crap, but several different "brands" are the same bass with different stickers inside. Also, they will sell them un-stickered to anyone who places a large-enough order.

I bought a CCB (Cheap Chinese Bass), though it wasn't a Cremona/Palatino, etc. I've had no problems with it whatsoever. It even sounds pretty good, so long as I don't hear ANY other bass within a day or so of hearing it. It has a finish that was apparently sprayed on to bare wood, and it seems like every time it gets the slightest bump, it chips down to bare wood.

Other than that, [and the sound], it hasn't been bad. I just have to figure a good place to keep it, so it doesn't get in the way of the one I bought to replace it.

thanks!!! Barefoot VERY helpful

Arnold Schnitzer, Jeff Bollbach, and myself all sell the Samuel Shen basses. They are made in China, but by a factory that isn't half-blind and drunk.
They are the best new instrument for the buck, IMHO. Great workmanship inside/out. Even, full sound across the board. I know this all sounds like a commercial, but nasty, cheap **** basses piss me off :mad:, and the Shens are in a totally different category.

end of rant

Originally posted by BassGreaser
thanks!!! Barefoot VERY helpful
There's an Air Force guy, from Luke AFB, in Glendale Az. who has just dropped the price on a Christopher plywood from $1300 to $700 for quick sale. It includes a K&K Slap pickup and two Rockabilly instructional videos

http://www.rockabillybass.com/discus/messages/3/239.html

He doesn't want to ship it, but will drive part way to California with it for pickup. If you're ready to buy right now, you should give him a call.

He dropped the price after just a couple days, so he's in a big hurry to sell, probably looking at a transfer or something really soon. (Maybe Deployment?)

Also, if Glendale is anywhere within reach of San Diego, you can buy a lot of gasoline with the $150-$250 that shipping would cost...
_________________________________________________
It seems it's a little harder to sell a URB in today's economy. I'm now only asking for $700. So if you're interested in a great plywood for a cheap price, please call me. Also note that I'm willing to drive a little to meet you.

Thanks. 623-363-8957. Jason LeBlanc

Originally posted by ****LLOAD
Arnold Schnitzer, Jeff Bollbach, and myself all sell the Samuel Shen basses. They are made in China, but by a factory that isn't half-blind and drunk.
They are the best new instrument for the buck, IMHO. Great workmanship inside/out. Even, full sound across the board. I know this all sounds like a commercial, but nasty, cheap **** basses piss me off :mad:, and the Shens are in a totally different category.

end of rant


Oh, go ON!

I second the above. In addition to the Shen that one of my students bought from Nick, there's another one that showed up in one of my combos at school, a hybrid with Obligatos on it. Both sound great, and look as if they'll last a good long time. I'd be scheming to get one if I didn't think my wife would kill me.

Chris, I just received a PM from your wife. She said everything was cool, and to drive up tomorrow and buy the Shen Hybrid. Spirocores, right?

Originally posted by CHRISTOPHERLLOYD
Chris, I just received a PM from your wife. She said everything was cool, and to drive up tomorrow and buy the Shen Hybrid. Spirocores, right?


Yes thanks. Starks, to be more specific...But what I really want to know is, who is this chick pretending to be my wife on the phone? If she wanted to be believable, she got off to a pretty shaky start. :hmm:

I bought a cremona and put new strings on it. For $600 total, i had an ok bass that played and didn't sound all that bad. I used it to jam while camping at the lake and other abuse. Sold it after a year for most of my investment. Nothing had fallen off of it nor had any seams begun to open. Neck was still straight. Only reason i sold it was because i needed the room it took up. I've been thinking about replacing it so i don't have to take my others to the lake. So, my opinion is: They serve a purpose for not much money. Kinda like those 'donut' spare tires in the trunk.

Donuts can keep you going if you don´t have a real tyre as a spare. They are just meant to be replaced as soon as possible.
Bad basses bring in the dough as well as better instruments, if you know what you are doing with them. The problem is that if you are not aware of these things´limitations, they will kill the joy of playing, the joy of music and the joy of learning.

For students, beginners and those who are entering the dark side, my advice is simple:

Get the Best Instrument You Can Afford. Dont´try to save money where it´s not meant to be saved.

And I think this goes for any instrument...


R2D2

[i]
Get the Best Instrument You Can Afford. Dont´try to save money where it´s not meant to be saved.

R2D2 [/B]

What he said. I have a good friend who has a Palatino and while the thing doesn't sound terribly bad it has little volume and is EXTREMELY difficult to play. The neck is about as svelte as a baseball bat and the 100% genuine ebonized fingerboard is pitiful. The finish flakes off for no apparant reason and the end pin is so poor it feels like the thing is mounted on a swivel. He has been told that to get this thing in decent shape would require $6-700 minimum. This would equate to his investing about $1500 in a bass worth no more than $5-600.

My Engelhardt Swingmaster (even though it is far from the top of the line) is ten times the bass. Spend your money on one of them or a Christopher.

Good Luck,
Steve

Like the spare 'donut' the bass got me to a place where i could replace it. Time was when my budget said that the difference between $600 and $1400 was prohibitive. Now i can afford a beater. Maybe i want to paint it - like an outhouse. Make it an outhouse bass. How 'bout this: it's the cardboard box i used as a sled 'cause i live in texas and we get snow (snow? - mostly ice) so seldom dad wouldn't buy me a sled 'cause the snow and the sled and the box would all last about about the same amount of time. I was happy with the box when it snowed. I think the crapmonas serve a purpose. I don't recommend them if you can afford better. Maybe i was just lucky with the crapmona i bought. It played alright. Not loud but audible.

Originally posted by BassGreaser
I'm looking to get one of these or othe cheap upright just to learn on. I want to hear what all you guys think about these cheap basses? How well are they made, and sound?
This just came in on www.rockabillybass.com...

Posted on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 03:44 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made a big mistake, bought a cremona sb2 pile of crap. All the rumors are true, the sides split in five different places. I took it to music store and I thought I knew what he was doing until he started pouring carpenter's glue in the cracks. It even split under the bottom nut.


He goes on to say that eventually the music store's distributor replaced the bass with a better one for an extra $30.

Originally posted by Barefoot Larry

This just came in on www.rockabillybass.com...
Posted on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 03:44 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made a big mistake, bought a cremona sb2 pile of crap. All the rumors are true, the sides split in five different places. I took it to music store and I thought I knew what he was doing until he started pouring carpenter's glue in the cracks. It even split under the bottom nut.

This is just plain disgusting. How do the people who sell these things to the innocent and gullible manage to sleep at night? They absolutely know that the buyer, who is in that price bracket because he simply cannot afford better, is literally throwing his money away. What a terrible thing to do to a beginner.

The reason these Crappa-Tinos keep selling is they are an attractive option to beginners (by which term I also mean newcomers to DB.) The attraction is in the price. Do you know any experienced bass players who would buy one? 'Course not, don't be silly.

And why do beginners keep taking the bait? Because of the obscure position and treatment of the DB in the musical world. If you aren't living in or near a major population centre, it is a hell of a lot easier to get into clarinet or oboe -- or to join the legions of guitar strummers -- than it is to find a DB and to get a teacher. So there's an information deficit out there about the DB. The deficit exists with a lot of vendors, too, who may offer one for sale now and then but don't know anything about them.

I find it really strange that an instrument that figures so highly in all the music people know (except for the rock 'n roll stuff, most of our musical traditions feature DB) is so blocked at the entrance door.

There is a huge tradition of players who have learned on instruments of really crappy quality. In the early years, the Basie band made its living using instruments of RCQ. Obviously this ain't the best way to go, but what I'm thinking is that if you really want to play, you'll find a way to play. There's a difference between unplayable and undesirable.

So, I have no problem with there being a fairly shabby low-end to the DB market. Anyone who really wants to play certainly can start to play on a Crapatino and get a fair way down the road.

The sound will be thin, but it still sounds more like DB than any other kind of bass. It's a DB, after all.

The playing action will suck, but that can be worked on. You'll pay big dollars (deservedly so) to luthiers if you can't do the work yourself. But it CAN be done.

Re-sale? Come on. You're spending $600 on a cheap-ass bass and you're worried re-sale? Go buy a car or something....

There is only one really good reason not to buy a Crapatino: there is an exceptionally high probability that it will implode. The implosion will be dramatic and scary. The neck will come off, the ribs will peel away, it will take hostages, make demands...

Personally, I think that if they didn't use that Martha Stewart hot glue -- or if they even used a little MORE of it -- the Crapatino would be an acceptable (though distasteful) low-end, entry-level instrument. But the implosion factor will cost you a lot of dough and break your heart. Don't buy one.

So, what DO you buy? When I wanted to start playing fiddle, my dad didn't buy a $500 fiddle for me. He bought the cheapest PLAYABLE instrument and we started from there. I'm and engineer and make pretty good bread. But, between mortgage, car payment, insurance, taxes, kid's shoes and clothes, etc. I couldn't fork out even 1400 bucks on a non-essential item. Luckily for me, I had a paying gig just waiting for me to get a DB and was able to save up enough - using a $600 playable crapatino - to at least buy an overpriced american standard ply (price is no guarantee of quailty) - then saved up enough again to purchase a new englehardt. The crapatino is long gone. Now I'm saving up enough to buy a decent carved bass and it may take me a couple of years or more. But, i got to the dark side - i found a way. And I've learned along the way. If someone had told me DO NOT get a crapatino, i'd still be playing a slab on a gig i didn't particularly care for. I was on my own in the boondocks. I agree with Damon that price is a deterrent. So, what would you recommend for me, the newbie?

Originally posted by tsolo
The crapatino is long gone.
How much did you sell it for?

I put a new set of strings on it, used it for a year, then sold it for $500.

I'll admit it wasn't the best quality but, it played and the action was OK. The fingerboard and ribs were somewhat thin. I abused it and it held together. It was a temporary solution. I'm just saying you can't dismiss these low end BSO out of hand. Don't buy one sight unseen (internet) and let a player, luthier, teacher or etc. that you trust check it out.

I've changed my mind. Don't buy one. It's not that they might begin to fall apart, all basses need a repair occassionally - it's that they can't be repaired when they do.

I think it's the best call on the whole thing: don't buy one.

Every market has -- and needs -- a low end. Sometimes the low end is disreputable and a bit shabby. And, real musicians don't let bad instruments stand in their way for long.

Even so, the Crapatino should not be bought, because it's gonna cash in its chips REAL soon. I'm not aware that's true with guitars, saxophones, what have you.

What should the beginner buy? I think Ed went through the plywoods earlier: Engelhardt, Kay, Strunal, etc. Get one of those.

Here in my little town, the local branch of a national music store (Long & McQuade) is used to dealing with musicians on leases, rent-to-buys, loans, etc. They used to deal in DBs, but not anymore.

If you can find a place to rent ya one for a while, I don't see how ya can beat that if you're just starting out.

Here's the other thing: yeah, DB's are expensive. Compared to kazoos, harmonicas, most guitars, etc. they are VERY expensive. But compared to a car, a college education, a motor boat, a closet full of fine threads, a substance abuse problem -- quite competitive. It's not like the common person can't find a way to own a decent, playable DB if it's important enough to them.

Originally posted by Damon Rondeau
I think it's the best call on the whole thing: don't buy one.

I'm not aware that's true with guitars, saxophones, what have you.


It's true. That's what convienced me. I was talking to a horn repair man. He said the horns play OK for a while but, when they crash, they can't be repaired. The material they are made from is something like pewter. If you try to bend the valves to fit, they break. No parts will fit them etc. You wind up buying a new horn anyway and having a horn shaped object to hang on the wall. I was lucky...

Gee, I just got back into the conversation. How I came to play bass was, my mother improperly packed my alto (Martin) when she shipped it, I took it to a music store for repair, traded dead even on the spot for an American Standard with a slightly misaligned neck and "MIKE AND VIVIE" carved into the heel.
Thanks for the memory.

BassGreaser -- sounds like you've already gotten some definitive replies, but I'll add mine, since I'm a recent SB-2 user.

DON'T DO IT!!!

I rented a Cremona SB-2 for eight months, as I began studying the bass. Although I was a beginner on bass, I have played guitar all my life and I can tell a good stringed instrument from a bad one. This was a bad one. Difficult to play, tinny sound, and the worst strings (of unknown make) that my teacher had ever seen. I brushed it ever so slightly against my stool -- really slightly -- and one of the corners broke off. Recently bought a carved bass (also of Chinese manufacture) from A&G Music in Oakland and am very happy with it. It's their house brand. Look around, play a few basses, and I'm sure that even among the least expensive basses you can do better.

Good luck.

I'm a newbie to DB [been playing a school Kay for the past year-year & a half], but i have played slab for the past 6 years and just bought a good [read as made in USA bass] this year an Ernie Ball Music Man StingRay5. If you can as what i plan on doing once the funds are here [i'm saving at least $2k then going to a few stores each about 2-3hrs away] and plan on playing right about anything i can get my hands on and then buy whatever feels and sounds right to me. When you buy a bass be sure to factor in the setup cost, new strings, bag, adjustable bridge, pickup, to get an idea of what the real price will be. That being said i'm glad i've got a while.

I've read nearly everything here on the Engleharts [sp?], Strunals, Christophers, went through All hail Bob's Links Page to get store locations remotely near me. I've learned that DB is even more difficult to find items for than 5 string basses or string sets [i bought out a store's entire inventory of a particular brand {3 sets} in one day]. From what i've read here Stay As Far Away From the Craptino "Basses" as you can. Yeah, i could get one in a few months or i can wait for about 6-10 months and get something that will more than likely last me through at least college [i'm a high school sophmore]. Well, just thought i'd chime in too. Thats all

I'm looking to get one of these or othe cheap upright just to learn on. I want to hear what all you guys think about these cheap basses? How well are they made, and sound?
Hello Bass Greaser,
I have had alot of stage time with the SB-2 and can tell you that I like it alot. The sound is deeper than that from a C-1 Engleheart but the neck is alot fatter. You can fix that problem with a file and some sandpaper or take it to a luthier.
I have bear paws for hands and it doesn't bother me.
I wish my friend hadn't offered to buy mine, I miss it. :crying:
Good day.
Mark :

yeah that post is old....I bought a Strunal Hybrid 5/20 :D . I love the bass!

Hi,
I'm new to all this. I went and played 3 different shen double basses. I was impressed with all of them. I played the sb100, sb180 & sb200w(willow).
They were decently priced; sb100 $1200, sb180 $2000, & sb 200w $3000.
I really liked the sb200w had a great warm sound, the price is the only thing holding me back. However I really enjoyed the sb180, it has a carved spruce top with maple veneers on the back and side.
The sb100, the all plywood one was great for the price.
They all had adjustable bridges & a good setup.

I was wondering if anyone had any input as to the Shens.
And what kind of setup is usually involved when a shen is purchased.
Thanks

Hi Humpfh...

I went through this process over the past few months and ended up with a Shen. Two local luthiers had the Shen 100 and 180 in stock. I spent about a month of vacillating between saving money and getting the plywood or spending a bit more for the solid topped hybrid. They both seemed like great buys. Finally floowed my heart and my ears and got the SB200 willow! I was sold when I played with the bow and shook the walls! :hyper:

Now I'm a rank beginner on the DB but the willow seemed to have much potential (plus I liked the gamba shape and the dark chocolate brown color that looked line an old bass.) I'm sure it will get better with time (as I hope my skills improve to match!) I don't think you can go wrong with any of these.

NNot sure what is "usually" included in a set up but the luthier I bought from added Obligatos on my 200 (I think he put Spiracores on the 180). He added adjuster wheels to the bridge and fitted the bridge to the body of the bass. He said I could bring in the bass as much as I wanted for a year or so for free adjustments. He said we should wait about six months or so for the bass to settle in and then he'll shape the fingerboard for closer action if I'd like it lower. A cheap bow and a nice bag completed the package.

After hearing a bunch of guys here I finally realized it would be good to have local support on a purchase like this and a slight premium in price would be worth it on the occasion I need some help.

Here is a link to a photo of my "Big Will" the Shen 7/8 Willow.

http://home.neo.rr.com/vatalzone/shenwillow.jpg

Thanks for the reply. I hear ya with that willow bass, it sure was nice. I played the 3/4 willow.
Also getting it local is a good idea.
I want to go check out christopher double basses. They seem to be in the same class as the shen, at least from what I've read in the newbie section.
Currently I'm leaning towards the sb180 hybrid.

After hearing a bunch of guys here I finally realized it would be good to have local support on a purchase like this and a slight premium in price would be worth it on the occasion I need some help.
Thanks Gary, a man after my own heart. ;)
I have but two slogans that I live by:

Support your local dealer.

Live music is better.

As for Shen setups, I ship most basses to the dealers with the machines installed (usually), the tailpeice, post (close, should be tweaked), the board (again, should be tweaked), a bridge blank with the feet fitted, and the endpin. They do the rest, which is a considerable amount. We offer a full set-up for the dealer, but most prefer to do it themselves. So when you buy from the dealer, you get his work, which as said here time and time again makes all the difference betweeen good and kick-ass (an industry term).

Gary, the plant behind your bass looks like it's cowering away form Big Will's presence. :) Thanks for sharing the pic.

Best,
John

Gary, the plant behind your bass looks like it's cowering away form Big Will's presence. :) Thanks for sharing the pic.

Best,
John

They all cower when they hear me play...babies cry and dogs howl. Hopefully that will all end once I get better control of that bow! :hmm:

BTW...I wanted to ask you if you remember the tailpiece on that big willow of mine? Is it ebony? It was pretty streaky. Joe thought it was rosewood and was it was not standard issue. Sure is purty whatever it is. :smug:

That would be Rosewood. We've been giving dealers the choice on the flatbacks, ebony or roseywood.

The luthier that works on my basses has seen a couple of these pos basses. The thing that pisses me off about the aholes that sell these things, is that the neck heel and body joint are planed flat and glued together. That is a formula for disaster. Late Gator

Humph

I have the Shen SB1800, which I had set up by my local luthier Jeff Bollbach, and I love it. Jeff did a nice job on it, and it seems to have gotten better in the year that I've played it.

I was so pleased with the bass and Jeffs work, that when it was time to get my daughter her own bass, I bought the SB100, and had Jeff do his magic on that one.

:cool:
I just picked up a used Cremona SB-2. one month old.
Got it at a great price-$495.00.
Here's the deal, this bass sounds very good.
strings were crap, got new set. lowered bridge.
My other upright is a 1954 C-1 Kay.
The Kay is a well playing, and sounding bass.
A good 50's Kay.
After playing the Cremona for about 10 gigs,
I think it sounds as good and plays as good as my Kay?
This has to be a FLUKE!!!!
No cheap bass should sound this good?

:cool:
I just picked up a used Cremona SB-2. one month old.
Got it at a great price-$495.00.
Here's the deal, this bass sounds very good.
strings were crap, got new set. lowered bridge.
My other upright is a 1954 C-1 Kay.
The Kay is a well playing, and sounding bass.
A good 50's Kay.
After playing the Cremona for about 10 gigs,
I think it sounds as good and plays as good as my Kay?
This has to be a FLUKE!!!!
No cheap bass should sound this good?

I would assume it is...or somebody playing tricks

Mojo -- If you can get ANY bass for $495 to sound that good, I'd say it's a fluke. If it really is a Cremona SB-2, it's a double-fluke. But nice going -- you've got a bass you like, and that's what counts.

-- John Greitzer

At the risk of getting verbally ripped apart, I have nothing but
good to say about my $500 Chinese Cremona SB-1. I've had
it four years without the slightest problem. It's the best playing and sounding bass I've ever owned - and I have had a few. Another word about instruments from this Chinese factory: The historic fort I work at was given four Palatino full-size fiddles and likewise they have been great! I wouldn't hesitate to get a Cremona or Palatino again.
I have seen and played other Cremonas as well.
A large part of my living has been made by playing music
these past 28 years.
Denis Havlena
Mackinac Straits, northern Michigan
My simple musical instrument making webpage is at:
www.ehhs.cmich.edu/~dhavlena/

At the risk of getting verbally ripped apart, I have nothing but
good to say about my $500 Chinese Cremona SB-1. I've had
it four years without the slightest problem.

Nobody should ever rip you apart verbally for describing your experience. Yes, low-probability events do occur. The a priori odds of having a good experience with one of these is, however, very low. That is, there is little likelihood that others will have a similar positive experience.

It's the best playing and sounding bass I've ever owned - and I have had a few.

What else have you owned?


Another word about instruments from this Chinese factory: The historic fort I work at was given four Palatino full-size fiddles and likewise they have been great!

How a fiddle holds up is certainly not indicative of how a bass will hold up.

I wouldn't hesitate to get a Cremona or Palatino again.

Well, that seems to work for you but, based on the evidence and the many, many poor and sometimes horrifying experiences suffered by others, it would be a disservice to recommend that one purchase one of those things.

It's a bit like saying you found a grenade, pulled the pin, and nothing bad happened. That would not be a basis to recommend that someone else engage in the same behavior. You have to consider the larger sample.

At the risk of getting verbally ripped apart, I have nothing but
good to say about my $500 Chinese Cremona SB-1. I've had
it four years without the slightest problem. It's the best playing and sounding bass I've ever owned - and I have had a few. Another word about instruments from this Chinese factory: The historic fort I work at was given four Palatino full-size fiddles and likewise they have been great! I wouldn't hesitate to get a Cremona or Palatino again.
I have seen and played other Cremonas as well.
A large part of my living has been made by playing music
these past 28 years.
Denis Havlena
Mackinac Straits, northern Michigan
My simple musical instrument making webpage is at:
www.ehhs.cmich.edu/~dhavlena/

In general I'm happy with my SB-2. After reading here I've been more than a little paranoid and I check it over on a regular basis for issues. The top has a tiny spot where it is not completely glued down (it will move ever so slightly if you put pressure on it with your thumb) but it seems to be about 1/2 an inch on the outide edge and it looks perfectly tight on the inside. I showed it to a luthier who told me not to worry about it but let him know if it gets any bigger . . .it hasn't. The construction is nothing to jump up and down about in terms of fit and finish but it serves its purpose. I've had a couple very experienced bassists try it and they both commented that it sounded good and played nice. I'm only 6 months into owning it and playing so I don't think my own opinion on whether it sounded nice and played nice would be worth much. I drag it out of the house, to work and rehearsals about once a week and it seems to be holding up well. I suspect the quality on these things varies greatly as I've seen a Palatino and it looked pretty bad (assuming they are made in the same factory). I suspect they are not all the same. For instance, mine has a maple top. The Palatino I saw was a different bass. Maybe they're actually made in several factories? Also, there is plenty of first-hand experience here on this site talking about disasters they've seen with these brands . . obviously its not made up. However, like anything on an internet board, there are also plenty of people who have never seen one yet are willing to offer their "experience." Only time will tell if my bass will hold up for the long haul.

Best, Ed

I got my SB-2 off evilbay about3 years or so ago and I have been pretty happy with it. I had to play around with the bridge and I replaced the strings with some supernils (best I could afford at the time) and got a K&K bassmax system for it and it worked pretty well for what I needed it for. The biggest issue I have had with it is that the soundpost fell over during a move, and honestly i wasn't extremely careful with it. beyond that, the fingerboard pulled away ever-so-slightly from the neck right at the spot where the neck ends. It, fortunately, has not affected the playing of the instrument at all and I have no dead noted. It has not moved from that spot since I first noticed it and honestly might have been that way from the factory. Overall, for the money I have into it I am happy with it. While I certainly have seen and played nicer, this does everything I need it to.

save your money and get a slap king from king. i've owned a cremona and it was junk,played bad(some of that was me) and all around low quality bass. get a king, jus' my two cents

i've got a higher-end carlo robelli chinese heap (this model normally goes for around $1800 new) and am going to weigh in on the "stay the F*CK away" side. the crappy whitewood "ebonized" fretbord offers the same relative stiffening to the neck as a container of pasta salad would if i just sorta slathered it on there. consequently the neck moves around more than shakira's hips.

i've since purchased a much better romanian from the talkbass classifieds and am now in the midst of a conundrum. see i'd love to sell the robelli and see if i can get some of my dough back, however i don't know that i feel comfortable foisting it off on some unsuspecting noob.

maybe i'll see if i can get a bunch of guys to donate $20 each at the annual GTG and offer it up as a sacrifice :D let everyone beat out their chinese-bass-inspired hatred on it with a baseball bat or golf club or something.

i've got a higher-end carlo robelli chinese heap (this model normally goes for around $1800 new) and am going to weigh in on the "stay the F*CK away" side.

Wow! $1800 and you had that experience? I'm really sorry that happened to you. I sure hope you didn't pay that much. As you know, that price is quite above the usual CCB prices and can actually buy you a very nice laminate (e.g., this one (http://www.uptonbass.com/UB-Standard-Basso-Rasa-Laminated-Upton-Double-Bass/)).

Wow! $1800 and you had that experience? I'm really sorry that happened to you. I sure hope you didn't pay that much. As you know, that price is quite above the usual CCB prices and can actually buy you a very nice laminate (e.g., this one (http://www.uptonbass.com/UB-Standard-Basso-Rasa-Laminated-Upton-Double-Bass/)).

no, i got it used from a sam ash for around $1k and at that price it's not a horrible bass, it's fully carved and with about $1k of setup and neck repair it'd probably be a fairly playable bass, i'm just not willing to invest that kinda dough in a chinese heap.

for the record, the romanian i picked up was this one (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=340197). it's much nicer than the chinese, cracks dents and all :)

no, i got it used from a sam ash for around $1k and at that price it's not a horrible bass, it's fully carved and with about $1k of setup and neck repair it'd probably be a fairly playable bass, i'm just not willing to invest that kinda dough in a chinese heap.

for the record, the romanian i picked up was this one (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=340197). it's much nicer than the chinese, cracks dents and all :)

Glad it all worked out for you and that you're happy. Thanks for sharing your story so that others may be prevented from stepping where you stepped.

Glad it all worked out for you and that you're happy. Thanks for sharing your story so that others may be prevented from stepping where you stepped.

well, i've still got to figure out how to divest myself of the CCB in a noob-friendly manner so i'm not quite at the happy ending yet...but, as you say, i'm glad my experience can serve some useful purpose



http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/mistakes.jpg

I fell into the Crapatino trap about 7 years ago. I am lucky the thing is still going and I learned some set up skills along the way. Now it sits in an unheated cabin in Colorado mountains to give me something to plunk on when I'm up there. They must have used an extra portion of the heat glue when they made mine. New stings helped.

I think based on all evidence I have been very lucky but it has been a struggle. If it was a character building experience then I sure have a whole heck of a lot of character now.

My new fully carved bass that I've had for 3 months was a real ear opener and has not failed to disapoint. I say, on balance, don't buy it.

I know there's a stigma here, but I got the Robelli 600 series bass (which retails for $1800) and my experience has been good.

Furthermore, I brought it to Bruce Wallace, who's one of the the "go to" luthiers here in Tampa. After thoroughly inspecting and playing the bass, Bruce was pretty impressed with it for the money. In fact he remarked that in addition to it sounding good, the setup was pretty good as well. There was an area beneath the G string in the first postion that needed some attention. Other than that, he told me to keep it. (I had two days left to get a full refund from Sam Ash).

I know there's a stigma here, but I got the Robelli 600 series bass (which retails for $1800) and my experience has been good.

Furthermore, I brought it to Bruce Wallace, who's one of the the "go to" luthiers here in Tampa. After thoroughly inspecting and playing the bass, Bruce was pretty impressed with it for the money. In fact he remarked that in addition to it sounding good, the setup was pretty good as well. There was an area beneath the G string in the first postion that needed some attention. Other than that, he told me to keep it. (I had two days left to get a full refund from Sam Ash).

how much attention did it need? dressing/planing? i'm curious because mine is similar, but to a greater degree and i'm wondering how far down the board can be planed before whitewood starts showing up

It needed the slightest bit of planing. I spoke to Bruce since I posted. He still maintains it's a good bass for the money, but said the after working on the fingerboard, it appears to be a low grade ebony, with a dark stain. I mentioned whitewood, and he said he wouldn't call it that, and that it was an adequate hard wood, but not particularly high grade. He also found some frustration in that the nut appears to have been epoxyed down, making removal risky. Another observation was the the solid top seems more machine pressed than carved, making the long term prospects of cracking possible. It plays and sounds good though, and the components (tuners, tailpiece, end peg) are solid.

Maybe we should engage in a class action suit with Ash for misrepresenting the carved top, and Klier fingerboard, LOL!!

It needed the slightest bit of planing. I spoke to Bruce since I posted. He still maintains it's a good bass for the money, but said the after working on the fingerboard, it appears to be a low grade ebony, with a dark stain. I mentioned whitewood, and he said he wouldn't call it that, and that it was an adequate hard wood, but not particularly high grade. He also found some frustration in that the nut appears to have been epoxyed down, making removal risky. Another observation was the the solid top seems more machine pressed than carved, making the long term prospects of cracking possible. It plays and sounds good though, and the components (tuners, tailpiece, end peg) are solid.

Maybe we should engage in a class action suit with Ash for misrepresenting the carved top, and Klier fingerboard, LOL!!

ha! sign me up :hyper:

good to know that i can plane/sand it a bit without striking birch or something :P

Ok, can anyone tell me the difference between a cremona sb 1, 2, or 3 as opposed to an sb 4? Im looking at one(sb 4) in Hawaii, for about 1495.00 tag price. Im just starting out, will this bass be sufficient to learn on and is it worth the price or should I be looking for 600.00 beater like everyones been saying not to get. Already waited almost a decade to find something I could afford when I had the money in hand. Please advise.

All the best,
Ethonius

I disagree with those who deem the Cremona SB-2 "unplayable." I owned and played one for several years and never had a problem with it, aside from it not having an adjustable bridge. As far as it being unsellable, not so. I sold it within one month of placing in my favorite local music shop. It sold for $600--only $200 less than I paid for it brand new, with the original strings mounted no less.

Is it a great instrument? No, far from it. Is it totally unplayable? Absolutely not. As someone else already said, cheap instruments dont turn away those who truly want to play.

In fact, I would argue that more expensive instruments are just as likely--if not moreso--to intimidate would-be players of modest means from getting started at all. To say one must pay more than one can afford to get a "playable" instrument is to say one must be of a certain level of affluence to be allowed into the country club. I think that the desire to play should always trump mere instrument quality in that regard.

As someone else already said, cheap instruments dont turn away those who truly want to play.

In fact, I would argue that more expensive instruments are just as likely--if not moreso--to intimidate would-be players of modest means from getting started at all.

I strongly disagree with the statements above. As many of us who have been around the block know, cheap instruments are often the most difficult to play and are the least rewarding in terms of how they sound. Sadly, it is just these instruments that end up in the hands of beginners, who are the least well equipped to overcome their substantial drawbacks. It's probably true that, given a very high level of motivation, such an instrument will not cause a beginner to quit. Absent such a strong will, such an instrument has, does, and will, cause many to give up in frustration. This is especially true if the instrument is poorly set up as many "cheap" instruments are. Often, the setup work is not worth doing on such instruments and, if done, the total cost ends up being the same as what a better instrument would have cost if purchased from a bona-fide bass shop that includes the setup work.

I just don't see the validity to the argument that more expensive (read higher quality) instruments are "just as likely--if not moreso--to intimidate would-be players of modest means from getting started at all." Place a better instrument into the hands of a beginner and my experience tells me that there will be a higher chance for success and much greater pleasure.

To say one must pay more than one can afford to get a "playable" instrument is to say one must be of a certain level of affluence to be allowed into the country club.

I don't know who would say such a thing. Certainly, I wouldn't. What I would say and what I have said is that one should buy the very best instrument that one can afford. For a new bass, I'd place the absolute minimum at $1200-$1500. In order to end up with a decent instrument with a good setup, that's the going rate. There's no magic. It's not about being allowed into the club. If that's more than one can afford, then I'd suggest re-thinking. Perhaps a rental agreement would be wise in such a case.

As for the Cremona, buying one is, IMO, not a good choice a priori. You seem to have made out ok, a posteriori. If you've been around TB long enough, then you know that for every Cremona "success story," there are many more tragic stories.

Certainly a better instrument makes for a better beginner experience, and it was not my intention to argue otherwise. But high prices DO in fact inhibit would-be musicians from pursuing music. That is indisputable.

Therefore (in my own experience) the motivated would-be musician should be enouraged to purchase the best instrument he or she can afford -- not discouraged from attempting music at all because the recommended instruments are all beyond their means. Are cheap instruments discouraging? Sure. But it does no good to start someone out of the gate on a negative foot by telling them the only instruments they can afford are "unplayable." Speaking as a teacher, that in itself sets the student up to be discouraged. They should instead be enouraged to make the most of what they can afford. Positive encouragement is crucial to succesful musical development, and that includes not trashing a beginners' potentially poor instrument quality.

That said, you may be quite right about the Cremona SB-2 being a hit-or-miss crap-shoot; however, in my experience cheap Chinese instruments are not the only ones subject to quality control issues. I'm by no means an advocate for cheap Chinese imports; I'm simply an advocate for making music available to all.

Do cheap instruments really bring music to the masses?

We have a proliferation of cheap musical instruments like never before in history. I would expect to see a corresponding surge in music being played.

Rather what's happening is that there are lots of people buying them, and then not playing them. (Just like how almost every American owns a bicycle, but few ride them with any regularity).

Case in point.

My wife's nephews were given cheap guitars by their parents.

When I was a boy, my parents let me play a Martin guitar that my Grandpa bought in 1956 (which they eventually gave to me).

(my Grandpa lived through the depression, and was frugal. They were lower middle class, and a Martin wasn't cheap in those days either. OTOH, my wife's nephews have a lawyer for a dad, live in a very large house with a lot of toys and gadgets. But $1000 for a musical instrument is extravagant in their book.)

On my wife's side of the family, she is the only one who plays an instrument (she was rebel...). On my side of the family, there are many, many members who play music on a regular basis.

Cheap instruments enter the realm of toys. Families that treat musical instruments as something important, and invest in quality instruments, are much, much more likely to have children who take an interest in making music.

And the difference between a $5-750 cheap chinese bass, and a $1,500 entry level quality bass, is not that one of them is bringing music to the
masses, it's that the purchaser of the former has a different set of priorities than the purchaser of the latter.

And the difference between a $5-750 cheap chinese bass, and a $1,500 entry level quality bass, is not that one of them is bringing music to the masses, it's that the purchaser of the former has a different set of priorities than the purchaser of the latter.

I disagree with this being the overwhelming reason as to why one might choose to purchase a cheaper instrument. Unless you want to consider that keeping a roof over your children's heads while also helping them pursue music to the best of your financial abilities constitutes a "different set of priorities." There are many reasons a cheaper instrument must suffice, none of which have to do with desire to invest in a quality instrument.

Again, my point is not about the market being flooded with cheap imports; as I have already stated, I do not specifically advocate for such. I advocate for encouraging musicians to make the most of what they can afford. If that means a $750 Chinese heap is the best they can do, so be it.

As for kids not playing instruments they are given these days, I would chalk that up far more to Playstation and Internet than to quality of the instrument. My own children started out with laughably poor instruments and refuse to QUIT playing even as the instruments are falling apart in their laps, just as I did. Perhaps I learned to be that way from my father, who learned guitar and ukelele himself on homemade instruments made while he was in a Japanese prison camp in WW II. The priority for him and his fellow prisoners was not to own a fine instrument; it was to make music, by any means possible.

Instruments do not make musicians. Love of music does.

Jazzbox,
I agree with you that if the choice is absolutely between a $500 bass or no bass, someone should drop the $500. There is a good chance they will have problems in the future and they MAY have been better off burning the $500, but maybe not.
There have been times in my life when I couldn't have possibly come up with more money for something I wanted without asking my kids to sacrifice. It was more important to provide for my family. Some family budgets simply don't permit both beer AND baby formula. Sure glad I don't have that problem anymore. :D

However, I've lost count of the number of slabbers posting here who claim they can't afford anything better than a cheap Ebay bass. A quick check of their profile shows an arsenal of expensive electric basses and amps. It is often just a matter of priorities.

@Jazzbox

I think we actually agree quite a bit, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood your position.

Thank you for sharing your dad's story, it's exactly what I was talking about.

Your dad clearly had that love of music, which reflected in his priorities. He invested significant time and energy, which could have been spent doing something else, making an instrument. Music was obviously one of his highest life priorities.

Those priorities obviously influenced yours.

I remember my parents having to pawn stuff off to feed us, when we were kids. The pawned their wedding rings, they sold anything that wasn't "essential", but pawning/selling an instrument was taboo, unless you had nothing left to part with.

Those were their priorities and they influence me.

Separately, I'm not about to tell a person who lives below the poverty level that their priorities are off if they're not willing to spend at least $X on a bass. (In fact, I'm in admiration of anyone for whom making music is on their essential list, regardless of their personal wealth).

Nor am I even going to tell a wealthy person that their priorities are off if they don't believe in spending more that $X on a bass.

My point, rather, was that often I see people who are not poor, (maybe just a bit cash-strapped from living the American lifestyle), insisting that it is circumstance that dictates what they do, and refusing to admit that their choice of musical instrument is a reflection of their priorities.

In any case, I really can't see how a Cremona is the best choice in any of these examples.

Clink: I absolutely agree. And I do see your point about posters and their arsenals. if you can afford a slew of G&L electrics, then if playing double bass is REALLY what you want, you can afford a decent upright. Otherwise yes, your priorities really aren't with playing upright.

Zeytoun: No worries -- yes I think we are definitely talking past each other here. In fact I was thinking that on the flip side of kids being discouraged by cheap instruments, I have seen plenty of unmotivated kids whose really nice instruments (which their parents bought them, most often) just gather dust in the corner until they pawn them off for beerfest money a year or two down the road.

Regarding pawning prized instruments, I was myself forced to resort to this not long ago and had to let go of some dearly loved vintage pieces that I still played regularly and had planned to hand down to my sons--so I understand exactly what you mean.

In terms of the Cremona SB-2, I think as with all of us who have actually played one, you either had a good experience or a bad one, with little in-between. I happen to have bought a decent one, which I was later able to sell quickly and for a good price. I guess my point is that a bad experience with any make does not preclude good experiences, and anyone asking questions about that make deserves to hear experiences and opinions from all sides.

But again, that said, I don't specifically endorse Cremona basses. I just happened to have paid a fairly low price for an instrument that worked well for me. Perhaps I just lucked out, but that was my experience. It really comes down to the trying out the individual instrument, which purchasing online kind of precludes.

Certainly a better instrument makes for a better beginner experience, and it was not my intention to argue otherwise. But high prices DO in fact inhibit would-be musicians from pursuing music. That is indisputable.

Therefore (in my own experience) the motivated would-be musician should be enouraged to purchase the best instrument he or she can afford -- not discouraged from attempting music at all because the recommended instruments are all beyond their means. Are cheap instruments discouraging? Sure. But it does no good to start someone out of the gate on a negative foot by telling them the only instruments they can afford are "unplayable." Speaking as a teacher, that in itself sets the student up to be discouraged. They should instead be enouraged to make the most of what they can afford. Positive encouragement is crucial to succesful musical development, and that includes not trashing a beginners' potentially poor instrument quality.

That said, you may be quite right about the Cremona SB-2 being a hit-or-miss crap-shoot; however, in my experience cheap Chinese instruments are not the only ones subject to quality control issues. I'm by no means an advocate for cheap Chinese imports; I'm simply an advocate for making music available to all.

Seems we're in violent agreement! :)

I guess my point is that a bad experience with any make does not preclude good experiences, and anyone asking questions about that make deserves to hear experiences and opinions from all sides.

Agreed, but I'd like to add that forums like this are useful in that they provide a large collective experience. From what I've experienced, seen, and heard, buying a Cremona is a bad bet, a priori. I understand and appreciate that you are hardly endorsing them. Your views seem quite reasonable.

LOL -- violent agreement!

Judging from the weight of arguments being against Cremonas here, I can hardly argue that they are likely a GOOD bet by any means.

Sounds like there are a lot of reasons to be wary of picking up a Cremona, but....... I bought one used for $500 4 or so years ago and it's been great. It's my only bass, I take it everywhere, and make a (humble) living with it. It plays pretty well and sounds pretty good. I've played it for thousands of hours and has just needed a couple minor seam repairs and a new bridge. It's by no means my dream bass, but it's getting me there. If it implodes tomorrow, I'll still be grateful for it's years of service.

I'm looking forward to moving on to a better bass before long, but I'll likely keep this one for travel, etc. - as long as it holds up.

PS - I did spend some time with the bass before I bought it and was pretty convinced it was a decent enough instrument to justify the purchase. I don't think I would have bought it sight-unseen.

Yes, some Edsels ran just fine. :)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a114/lesb/Misc/600-edsel_small.jpg

True story -- back in '96 a friend of mine drove her Edsel clear across the country from NH to California and was still driving it around when I went out to visit. :D

True story -- back in '96 a friend of mine drove her Edsel clear across the country from NH to California and was still driving it around when I went out to visit. :D

Sure-- the ones that didn't self-destruct stayed around!

Yes, some Edsels ran just fine. :)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a114/lesb/Misc/600-edsel_small.jpg

As long as we are on a tangent -

Never was an issue of performance or quality. All American cars were sub-par, we just didn't realize it yet.

The Ford Galaxy was the very same car with a different grill and it sold very well for more than a decade.

Edsel was a departure from the design norm in a period of conformity and few would buy one. :spit: Said it looked like a car that had sucked on a lemon, :eek: when in fact all cars from the period sucked and were lemons, except the VW bug, a niche contender and the only major import.

Then came Honda. :cool:

ALL cars sucked in 1958! :)

Beetle, Renault, Peugeot, Simca, Fiat & Rover were as poorly constructed as Pontiac, Chevrolet, Mercury, Oldsmobile and Edsel were poorly designed. Sad but true - not the zenith of automobile design but the Mini and Volvo were just around the corner.

Never was an issue of performance or quality. All American cars were sub-par, we just didn't realize it yet.

The Ford Galaxy was the very same car with a different grill and it sold very well for more than a decade.

No, it was an issue. Some were built without brake parts! Galaxy was not the same at all. I know, way off topic but check the history (http://www.failuremag.com/arch_history_edsel.html).

Edsels were produced for two years & one month - model years: 1958-60.

It was the Ford Fairlane in '58 - the Galaxy was introduced in '59 as the top-of-the line full-size Ford above the Fairlane 500.

In '58 & '59, Edsel was indeed a seperate platform - but - in 1960 it did in fact share mechanics & body style with the Fairlane until it was discontined after only one month into 1960 model year.

http://www.edsel.com/pages/edsel60.htm

. . . and . . . now, back to our regular programming . . . :bassist: