I was hoping some of you could share your experiences playing or listening to the Mahler 1st solo in audition situations and answering some specific technical questions. I believe that the musical result is always the best indicator of technical success, but in that light I am wondering about the following and the potential to spur an immediate "Thank you! NEXT!" from the audition comittee...

- changing bow direction mid-measure (especially from the 3rd measure on as indicated by Zimmerman) as opposed the written phrase

- playing all on the G string vs string crossings

- little or no vibrato to sound more lamenting

Thanks for your feedback!

Steve

I've played this in an audition. Measures 1 & 2 I changed bows halfway through each measure. All other measures were played in one bow. I've played the whole thing on the G string before, but I think I've also crossed to the D for the low A. I'm almost positive I used the string crossing in the audition. Little to no vibrato is a good idea. It isn't a bel canto style solo, so lots of vibrato makes it sound like you're looking for intonation leeway.

It's a terrifyingly simple solo. It should be easy as pie, which makes you that much more afraid of hitting a wrong note - because you'll look like that much more of an idiot. Regardless though, these finer points of string crossing and bowing aren't of primary concern. First and foremost here is intonation and tone. If you're looking to avoid "Thank you!", then just play it in time and in tune and with confidence. I doubt you'll be sent on your way just because you chose to cross strings in the 7th measure. So do whatever helps you to make it sound at your best, that's my two cents.

I could also be incredibly wrong, so perhaps some other more knowledgable folks will share their thoughts as well.

I guess I play it with rather little vibrato and achieve most of the expression with bow speed.

I start up bow and play 2 bows per measure. Starting on the G string for the first 2 bars. Bar 3 is on the G string while I either play bar 4 the same or play the F on the D string the second time (staying in thumb pos). Bars 5 and 6 I play in thumb pos across the strings (finishing on thumb D). The octave A's in bars 7 and 8 are on the D string - the first as a harmonic, then press the string down for the lower one then straight across to the G string for the D. (although sometimes I'll play the high A in bar 7 as a stopped note on the G then play it as a harmonic the next time for an echoe effect).

Of course all these bar numbers are excluding the 2 bars tymp intro (i.e. bar 1 of the solo is really bar 3).

I've heard a story of somebody doing it almost all in harmonics. But that had to have sucked.

I like staying on one string, but it depends on the effect you want I guess. I also change bows in the middle of the first 2 measures. Dont' swing the dotteed eigth/sixteenth. Tempo is critical.

Thanks for your input everyone....looks like the really slow all-harmonics version is *out*
Steve :rolleyes:

If you can find the recording of Mitroplolous/Mineapolis Orch 1940, that has a really great solo in it. It's supposed to sound very bleak, muffled, dead and dry, after all it is a funeral march.

More conductors are getting the entire section to play it as a soli (as it was originally intended.) Do not use vibrato, aim for a consistent sound, and "hint" at expression just through the speed of your bow without any crescendo's.

Play the intro 134 if you can to avoid any slides...Make sure the high A is in tune, if you can't nail it perfectly with the octave jumps rather play it as a harmonic.

The schmaltzy uber vibrato is going out of style. More bass players are becoming aware that this solo is not meant to sound beautiful, it's really supposed to be an ugly menacing sort of little echo from the back of the hall.

For audition purposes play it very straight and do not drag. Also play it at a faster tempo, something like 68 to the quarter note.

I also like using two bows to the bar, starting up is good, and don't clip notes; make sure they're very sustained.

Avoid fingering that sounds jerky.

A mute may not be necessary depending on your bass and the hall, try it both ways.


Good luck


Oh yes, I almost forgot, the original manuscript has commas between the bars, this basically means that the beginning of each bar should have a good start/presence versus leaving a hole in sound.

Lastly here is the fingering I like to use.

All on G string: 13431,13431,4+1,4+1,121+421,121+421,2(g string)1(d string)1(g string),1harmonic (d string) 1 closed d string 3 harmonic d string.
Depending on your string height going across to the D string for certain parts may work to your advantage (less shifts), just make sure you're in tune. Also bars 5 and 6 can be played with chromatic fingering as well quite nicely!

Very interesting information. Thanks for all the versions. I've been very lucky twice in my life; I once played this solo in Jordan Hall with the Civic Symphony of Boston, then watched my own daughter play it in Prague this past June with the Boston Youth Symphony Orchestra (GBYSO)

Howz 'bout tunin' yer G up a tone?

Workz for me.

Zanks,

V

The solo, and rehearsal/discussion of it, starts at around 1:22:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lI7icWPfoc

And here's Robert Oppelt's take on it (thanks to Jason Heath), with some interesting discussion as well:

http://doublebassblog.org/2007/06/how-robert-oppelt-plays-the-bass-solo-in-mahlers-first-symphony.html

and Mr. Oppelt's site:

http://www.robertoppelt.com/page6.html

It's fitting this thread just got bumped, I've got an audition for one of the (paying) training orchestras here in LA on friday night, Mahler 1 is on it and I've been puzzling over how I want to treat it. I think I've tried every fingering I've seen suggested anywhere, and I'm pretty comfortable with all of them (except possibly doing the last two bars sul G, because that's retarded.) The vibrato thing is definitely been my main concern. I had been doing the 5th and 6th measures across the G and D but shifting to 2 for the bottom D instead of using thumb to vibrate. However, to a certain extent, I'd almost rather hear the bottom of the phrase without vibrato, but in a lesson I was told if I didn't vibrate that D I'd look like a fool.

How do you guys feel about that D senza vib? I don't really have any problem executing it technically either way but for the life of me I can't really decide which is the better musical choice.

(except possibly doing the last two bars sul G, because that's retarded.)

Wow! You should check out the video Eric linked to. It shows a retarded bassist in the retarded Berlin Phil playing it just that retarded way.:scowl: Honestly man, thats a pretty bold statement as most Europeans I have encountered play it that way. I think it's an American versus European ideal thing. IMHO.

Here's some more videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlgvabz-4B8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duBVcOiqrwY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDlHhck0iec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2rKsfm-FYk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsf0xJvlMuw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3tQszZCMr8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVggJeTXGxI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk91Y99YYxc (goto 2:35)


Enjoy

Howz 'bout tunin' yer G up a tone?

Workz for me.

Zanks,

V

Sure, that makes it easier; but are you going to re-tune your bass for one solo in the middle of a giant work? Alternatively, you can learn how to play solo as it was originally written.

Here's some more videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlgvabz-4B8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duBVcOiqrwY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDlHhck0iec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2rKsfm-FYk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsf0xJvlMuw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3tQszZCMr8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVggJeTXGxI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk91Y99YYxc (goto 2:35)


Enjoy

The first video featuring Rainer Zepperitz and the Vienna Philharmonic is unbelievably out of tune.

The fifth video with Vincent Pasquier is BEAUTIFUL, but I don't think it really captures the concept of the solo. It should sound stark and without vibrato, not warm and lush.

The 2nd video is very simple, but incredibly eerie, I personally love that recording.

The first video featuring Rainer Zepperitz and the Vienna Philharmonic is unbelievably out of tune.

Rainer Zeppertiz has never been a member of the WP.

Wow! You should check out the video Eric linked to. It shows a retarded bassist in the retarded Berlin Phil playing it just that retarded way.:scowl: Honestly man, thats a pretty bold statement as most Europeans I have encountered play it that way. I think it's an American versus European ideal thing. IMHO.

Hey, I wasn't judging, I was just saying it was the only fingering choice I haven't given serious consideration to, since playing that low A on the D string seems, to me at least, to be a overall better decision any way I look at it. Wasn't trying to bash the Europeans. If they can nail the octave shift every time, hey, why not. In my experience though it's just way too easy to miss the note by a smidge and turn the last two bars into one of those awkward bass intonation moments.

Rainer Zeppertiz has never been a member of the WP.

Thanks for the correction. That bass player looks a heck of a lot like Rainer Zepperitz, and I heard he freelanced with the WP on occasion. Back to the topic, his solo was incredibly out of tune...

I am not an orchestral player but I every now and then I'll play this solo for fun and I have consulted orchestra players about it. My understanding is that the D to A to D should be played on the G string with a bit of portamento. Certainly sounds groovier to me that way. I hear there are people who can play the solo and pizz the timpani part at the same time.

I am not an orchestral player but I every now and then I'll play this solo for fun and I have consulted orchestra players about it. My understanding is that the D to A to D should be played on the G string with a bit of portamento. Certainly sounds groovier to me that way. I hear there are people who can play the solo and pizz the timpani part at the same time.

Slides/Portamento are very uncharacteristic of this specific solo. If anything most people try and completely avoid any noticeable sounds of shifts. Once again: Deadened, and muffled. It isn't supposed to sound beautiful and sonorous. Some people feel that the solo should have a certain "Schmaltz" to it, that makes sense for certain aspects of the third movement where there are references to jewish melodies (especially with the cafe-band marching), but the intro solo was intended to sound stark, ugly, and incredibly chilling. I think the Mitropolous recording is a very good example. If you're looking for an uber schmaltzy 3rd movement check out basically any recording with Bernstein.

Sure, that makes it easier; but are you going to re-tune your bass for one solo in the middle of a giant work? Alternatively, you can learn how to play solo as it was originally written.

Well..since the person who had the question was talking about an audition I felt I could give him/her a slight suggestion about re-tuning.
Call it cheating? Are beta -blockers cheating?
Will the jury notice.......probably not (if you tune backstage beforehand)and it's played in tune.

By the way, you think Vincent Pasquier doesn't "capture the concept??!!"
So what IS "the concept" Calvin? Your "Concept" supercedes Eschenbachs' "concept"??
Is it written ANYWHERE on the score "senza vibrato"? or "schlecht" (german for UGLY)
Is that how you'd play it Calvin?.. "unglaublichte Schlecht und überhaupt FALSCH??"

Probably is.

:spit:

Enjoy

Thanks Bryan!

My fave is the Becks'- It's better in tune than most! (funnier too)
(I see that tendinitis hasn't won you over- I'm very happy for you!)

V

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk91Y99YYxc (goto 2:35)



Hey Calvin,

Perhaps that's more YOUR IDEA of "THE CONCEPT".

v

Well..since the person who had the question was talking about an audition I felt I could give him/her a slight suggestion about re-tuning.
Call it cheating? Are beta -blockers cheating?
Will the jury notice.......probably not (if you tune backstage beforehand)and it's played in tune.

By the way, you think Vincent Pasquier doesn't "capture the concept??!!"
So what IS "the concept" Calvin? Your "Concept" supercedes Eschenbachs' "concept"??
Is it written ANYWHERE on the score "senza vibrato"? or "schlecht" (german for UGLY)
Is that how you'd play it Calvin?.. "unglaublichte Schlecht und überhaupt FALSCH??"

Probably is.

:spit:

Dude, calm down. You need to relax.

Back to the actual topic of the thread, thanks for the hijack! :)

Has anyone heard the Gergiev/London Symphony recording of Mahler 1? The bass solo is played tutti and it sounds phenomenal!

I enjoy and try to emulate Ed Barker's 1977 recording with Ozawa and the BSO. He told me that it was recorded his first week(s) on the job and at the end of a very long day of recording. He has since seen that same scenario played out with other new principal players and suspected that it was their way of testing intestinal fortitude.

Is that how you'd play it Calvin?.. "unglaublichte Schlecht und überhaupt FALSCH??"

Probably is.

:spit:


At this point I'd like to remind everyone to reread our friendly neighborhood Forum rules (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/faq.php?faq=forum_rules#faq_new_faq_item). Surely it's possible to have this discussion and disagree while remaining respectful?

Let's try this again: Verth and Calvin (and bassbuzz if you wish), please take your dispute to PM. Should anyone feel that the PM system is being used disrespectfully, please report said abuse to the admins via the "contact us" link at the bottom of any forum page. Any such abuse will be dealt with by the admin panel. Now, can we please continue this discussion without turning the thread into a distance urination contest?

Let's try this again: Verth and Calvin (and bassbuzz if you wish), please take your dispute to PM. Should anyone feel that the PM system is being used disrespectfully, please report said abuse to the admins via the "contact us" link at the bottom of any forum page. Any such abuse will be dealt with by the admin panel. Now, can we please continue this discussion without turning the thread into a distance urination contest?


Back to the topic for the second time, I do like the Barker solo. Has anyone heard the Concertgebouw/Bernstein version?

Howz 'bout tunin' yer G up a tone?

Workz for me.

Zanks,

V

I would not want to do this, because it changes how the harmonics and open notes fall on the bass. It would eliminate your ability to vibrato either of the last two As, one would be open and the other you would probably utilize the first octave harmonic. Also tonally the open A would sound out of place in my opinion, louder and more free vibrating than the rest of the notes. Also it would make the first six notes harder, because you could not use four finger technique as easily, as it would be a bigger reach.