I am just so terrible, I can hum the rythm but I don't even know if the notes are going up in pitch or down in pitch when I'm humming them. Like, I'll try to play along with a cd and I'll just get upset and sad. Because I suck so bad at it. I can't tune by ear, and I don't even know how to tell if a song is 4/4 or 7/4 or any of that =(

help =(

had that problem.. practice your ass off.. you will learn in time.. I still struggle a bit.. but I have gone from not being able to tell which is higher a semi tone apart to being able to listen to a passage and remember it in my head long enough to figure it out on bass (usually haha)... Keep up the work... Not everyone gets it right away.. I didn't and my band is pretty successful now.

Mike

Originally posted by Albini_Fan
I don't even know if the notes are going up in pitch or down in pitch when I'm humming them.

I don't know what to say to help you with this. I'm afraid I can't relate to that at all.

Maybe a teacher would be a good way to go? If you can't tell whether you're going up or down, perhaps you need some outside guidance, so you can relate what you're singing to what's happening, musically.

Gary Willis has a great book available to help with this Ultimate Ear Training for Guitar and Bass. I found it a great help even though I don't have trouble learning songs by ear, it helped me hear passages and tunes that I would have had to grab my bass for before.

http://www.garywillis.com/pages/books/etbook.html

Relax, keep at it. It just takes more time for some people. Maybe you could start with some really simple tunes to get your ear tuned in.

start simple. When i was 12 and starting out the first song i learned by ear was, now don't laugh, "Running with the Devil" by van Halen:eek: :bawl:

it took me 3 days to figure out the first note.

that was 24 years ago...now i'm pretty good at it.

don't worry tho - it will not take 24 years for you to get proficient at ear training.

just practice.

Moley's right, a good teacher can show you things that may take you years to stumble upon on your own. Until then, incorporating scales, modes, and intervals into your practice routine can help you determine which direction the pitch is going.

Originally posted by DonZ
it took me 3 days to figure out the first note.

:eek: :D

I have a teacher, I like him. He has a great personality, but I don't think he's a very good teacher. I asked him about learning by ear, and he told me to bring up a CD I wanted to play. I brought up Big Black - Rich Man's 8-Track (My favorite band, my favorite CD, my favorite bassist. I'd DIE for his tone, read on) Now, he just started to play to it without talking to me. The only thing he said to me was "I can't pick out any of the notes, it's too distorted. It's in Drop D, and he's playing really hard with a pick. That's how he achieves his wretched, horrible, buzzy tone. That was it. And, he hasn't taught me any music theory after a month of lessons. He's waiting on the music store to get "the book" he usually teaches out of. Sigh.

Tone is subjective - I hate distorted bass as well!! ;) If you're trying to pick out detuned, distorted bass lines in amongst heavy guitars and loud drums, then I'm not surprised you're struggling! :hmm:

Get another teacher

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the teacher. You have told us what he is not teaching you, what is he teaching you? He may be teaching you what you need to know instead of what you would like to know.
I agree with Bruce (and your teacher) about the detuned, distorted bass lines.

Well, he usually teaches out of a book. He gave his only copy to another student, and he had to order one for me. And the music store has been real slow getting it, or something. But aside from that, he's really improved my technique, he gave me alot of fingerings to practice. He taught me the chromatic scale, octaves ect. Really basic stuff, but I'm no advanced musician :P He explained the frequencies, alot of little things. Like how to solder a loose wire in my input jack ;p

Big Black's bass isn't distorted (Well, maybe a little overdriven from thier bassist's SVT), it just has a really buzzy high end. DL Big Black - Kerosene or Big Black - Big Money or Big Black - The Big Payback (If you want to hear what I listen to and try to play). The bass is really prominent in the mix, thier guitars arn't heavy at all! They sound more like vacuums, no heavy drums either. Unless a roland is heavy :( I just SUCK!

Originally posted by Albini_Fan
he's really improved my technique, he gave me alot of fingerings to practice. He taught me the chromatic scale, octaves ect. Really basic stuffEarlier you said he wasn't teaching you any theory. That's why I said to get another teacher. Now he is apparently teaching you theory.

Apparentley :rolleyes:

Teaching theory out of a book. Hmmm... if he *knows* theory, why does he need a book to teach it to you? And if he needs a book to teach it to you, does he really *know* it?

How long have you been playing? How long have you been dealing with music at all for that matter? If you haven't been playing long, it makes sense that your ears are not too good.

It takes time and much practice to develop your ears. I have been playing bass about 6 years now (off and on), but before that I played French Horn in high school and junior high band for 6 years, and before that I took piano lessons. Don't give up or get too frustrated. Just keep plugging away, and eventually it will come.

Like was suggested by others, try some easy tunes first to get everything started. I started with old U2 tunes (does that date me now? I feel old :)) and worked my way up. Also, run scales so your technique will improve, and listen to what you're doing and you ear will improve as well.

Just my thoughts,

Don

Originally posted by moley
Teaching theory out of a book. Hmmm... if he *knows* theory, why does he need a book to teach it to you? And if he needs a book to teach it to you, does he really *know* it? Some people like to use a structured course of study. Personally, I'm more in the 'adapt to the moment, draw on your personal experience' school, but that doesn't mean the guy is incompetent.

On the other hand, if he's lent out his only remaining copy, that is a bit careless!

Wulf

There are quite a few threads in the GI archives on ear training.

One thing I've routinely mentioned is learning with the blues. While the blues may not be your favorite style of music, in fact, you may not even like it at all, it provides a wonderful structure for learning. The blues use a system of chord changes that is predominant in all popular music right now. With traditional, straight-ahead blues, you know that you're probably looking at one 12 bar pattern, repeated over and over and over. And that 12 bar pattern is most usually going to be, (in the example of Bb):

Bb / Eb / Bb / Bb
Eb / Eb / Bb / Bb
F7 / Eb / Bb / Bb

It could be some slight variation of that pattern. But, the point is, that the blues usually use the I chord, the IV chord, and the V chord. If you'd like some further information on what those are, check out the link at the bottom of this post.

The wonderful thing about the blues is that it will train your ear to do many things; 1) to hear the change from a I chord to a IV chord, 2) to hear the turnaround of the V chord to the IV chord to the I chord, and also, 3) to hear a 12 bar pattern, and understand the rhythmic value of it.

With the blues, really, all you have to find is one note. If you can find what note they're playing for the first bar, you know they're going to the IV and to the V, and you can just follow along. Then, it makes it easier to find the other, individual notes that bassist is playing.

In regards to time sigs, it's really beneficial to have a teacher. The main thing is to be able to count aloud, and clap along, to any time sig. If you have a drummer friend, perhaps they can help you with this. Just make sure it's an educated drummer friend.

<a href="http://www.talkbass.com/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=31"><img src="http://www.stuffmagazine.com/mayhem/critters/wallpaper/barbellduck_800x600.jpg" width="175" height="150" border="0" alt="Barbell Duck wants you to learn about THEORY!!! Click here and you CAN pretend nothing happened!"></a>

Originally posted by wulf
Some people like to use a structured course of study. Personally, I'm more in the 'adapt to the moment, draw on your personal experience' school, but that doesn't mean the guy is incompetent.

Ok, fair enough.

Hey Albini_fan,

When you listen to music, popular rock / classic rock / blues, etc... Do you consciously focus on the bass part of the song? Or, do you hear the bass line without thinking about it?

:bassist:

It depends on what drugs I'm on :D

Haha, uh, I don't know. If there's bass I'll focus on it, and if I'm listening to say something like Converge or DEP I'll have to kind of make up my own in my mind.

albini fan,

I downloaded this song and transcribed the main riff. There is a variation of this used in the verse. The chorus is pretty much eighth notes with C#s and Ebs alternating on the last beat of the two bar rhythm.

BTW, thanks for getting me to listen to and read about Steve Albini. What a talented guy. I love his essay about record companies. I have heard the stories many times, but I had never seen the accounting before. Facinating.

I hope the GIF comes through...http://home.kc.rr.com/mflaherty/bigblackweb.gif

Look up my "Is getting signed really like this" thread

Thanks! Although, although that's one of the few Big Black songs that the bass isn't really the lead. Albini was originally a bass player, but he gave it up in favor for wierd guitar vroom sounds.

You should check out songs like Bad Penny, The Model, Dead Billy, The Big Payback or My Disco to name a few of the bass-heavy Big Black songs (Which is like 60% of them ;P)

Originally posted by jazzbo
(in the example of Bb):

Bb / Eb / Bb / Bb
Eb / Eb / Bb / Bb
F7 / Eb / Bb / Bb


With the blues, really, all you have to find is one note.

I agree, blues is a great way to learn bass. You can (very possibly!) play tunes with other people within days if not hours with the blues.

I'm kinda new here and have been doing 10x more reading than posting and JB's advice is rock solid every time. But Bb? :p You must play the sax too.

Originally posted by Blueszilla
But Bb? :p You must play the sax too.

No, no sax. But c'mon, it's a great key! :D

Originally posted by ZonPlyr
Gary Willis has a great book available to help with this Ultimate Ear Training for Guitar and Bass. I found it a great help even though I don't have trouble learning songs by ear, it helped me hear passages and tunes that I would have had to grab my bass for before.

http://www.garywillis.com/pages/books/etbook.html

I second the motion on the Gary Willis book. His method is to start with intervals. I really think that learning to identify intervals between notes is a very helpful way to improve if you feel you have no clue about ear training.

Willis starts with very simple two note intervals, then moves on to more complex phrases and even chords. I really feel having his book/CD is an excellent way to start.

I also highly endorse Jazzbo's advice to familiarize yourself with the twelve bar blues structure. I played for three years having great difficulty all the while, until I joined a blues band and had to get a grasp of the 12-bar blues. There just is no expressing how much that helped me with music...not just blues music either.

A great book for understanding blues structure is: "Mel Bay's Complete Blues Bass Book" with CD, by Mike Hiland.

That book and the Gary Willis book will really move you forward as a bass player. Learn scales,too. Play them up and down. After awhile, you will begin to be able to discern if one note is ascending or descending from the previous note. The Gary Willis book will help you with that, too.

Ear training comes much harder to some than others. Don't give up in dispair. Just keep working and following the advice in this thread and you will improve with time.

The reason your teacher may teach from a book and want you to have one, too, is so that you both follow together in a structured, rational manner and aren't just jumping around grabbing ideas here and there. A good music book can provide a solid logical progression of theory and techniques. I learn better that way, though some thrive on a more of a "catch as catch can" approach. It sounds to me as though you need more stucture until you become more confident about your ability.

Wonderful post there, Bop. :)

Don't really have much to add to what has all been said, but letting you know that so many of us become discouraged along our path, including myself (believe me LOL). And, no, you don't suck just because you are having a problem with something. It's just a sign that something needs to be practiced a little more. And we all hit plateaus/ruts. What you have to do is not give up. Focus on what needs to improved. Explain to your teacher what exact problems you are having with your ear training (maybe bring in a song that has a more clear bassline to begin with?).