After reading a couple of Osama_Spears posts, I realize that he has a hard time understanding the concept of scales. This made me think that maybe there are others here as who dont get it either. So I am simply going to write out the scales for him/them.

I am putting them in the order of the circle of 5ths as it was taught to me. This will hopefully help teach you that as well. I probably shouldve looked at this before posting but I forgot about it and am too tired to go back and redo it so if its wrong I apologize. Click here for more info on the Circle of 5ths. (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11675&highlight=intervals)

We'll start with the major scales first. Then imediatly underneath it will be its natural minor (aka aeolian mode) This way it'll be easier for you to analize why/what makes it the minor. There are two other variations of the minor scale. They are the harmonic and melodic minor. But we'll get into those once you grasp these.

1.C
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C

2.G
G-A-B-C-D-E-F-#G
G-A-Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G

3.D
D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D
D-E-F-G-A Bb-C-D

4.A
A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A
A B C D E F G A

5.E
E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#-E
E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E

6.B
B-C#-D#-E-F#-G#-A#-B
B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A-B

7.F#
F#-G#-A#-B-C#-D#-F-F#
F#-G#-A-B-C#-D-E-F#

8.F
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F
F G Ab Bb C Db Eb F

9.Bb
Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb
Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb

10.Eb
Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D-Eb
Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-Cb-Db-Eb

11.Ab
Ab-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-G-Ab
Ab-Bb-Cb-Db-Eb-Fb-Gb-Ab

12.C#
C#-D#-E#-F#-G#-A#-B#-C#
C#-D#-E-F#-G#-A-B-C#


If you notice each of these scales consists of 8 notes. The 8 notes in each scale are numbered 1-8 in numerical order. These numbers are called intervals.

We'll use C as our example because 1. Every other scale is built off it. 2. It contains no sharps or flats. (accidentals) C=1 D=2 E=3 F=4 G=5 A=6 B=7 C=8 (the 1 & 8 play a duel role, it is the root or 1 & the octave or 8) This applies to every key and to both major and minor scales. In this case of C major the 3, 6, & 7 are major. Now, if you look at the scales natural minor you'll notice that the 3, 6, and 7 are one half step (1 fret) lower. Making them a a natural minor. For more detailed information on intervals click here (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37168&highlight=intervals)

Hope this helps you to some extent. If you have any question please feel free to ask. I or someone else will be more than willing to help.

Osama, even if you dont understand what Im talking about with the major and minor stuff, All the notes are there for you, so theres no reason you shouldnt be able to learn the scales now. Tke the time to write them down and then practice them.

There will be a quiz on them in the near future to see if you've been trying to learn them.

Good work, Cass - but I'm afraid I've got some corrections for you.

E Minor should be E F# G A B C D E. It's F# not F.

B Minor should be B C# D E F# G A B. It's G not G#.

F# Major should be F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#. It's E#, not F.

F Major should be F G A Bb C D E F. It's Bb not A#.

F Minor should be F G Ab Bb C Bb Eb F. It's a flat key, not a sharp key. So, Ab not G#, Bb not A#, and Db not C#. And, it's Eb, not E natural.

Eb Minor should be Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb. It's a Cb not a C. With the C natural, it's actually Eb Dorian.

Ab Minor should be Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab. They're all flats, no naturals.

C# Major should be C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#. All sharps, no naturals.

You've gotta remember that each scale can only contain one (no more no less) of each note name. So it can't go F G A A# C, because then, you've got 2 As, and no B. It's gotta have one of each note name in there. Every F scale will be some variation on F G A B C D E, etc.

Also, you've not really gone by the cycle of 5ths there. You have, up until F#, but then you went to F. The order, going by the cycle, should be:

C G D A E B F#/Gb C#/Db G#/Ab D#/Eb Bb F

Also note that you've included C# instead of Db, F# instead of Gb, Ab instead of G#, and Eb instead of D#. I think it's a better idea to include the enharmonics that you will actually see used.

You could see written either F# Major or Gb Major (6 sharps vs 6 flats). Though, you're only likely to see F# Minor (3 sharps), not Gb Minor (too many sharps, not really even a key!). Also, you'll probably see Db Major (5 flats) not C# Major (7 sharps). However, you'll see C# Minor (4 sharps) not Db Minor (too many flats to contemplate!). You'll see G# Minor (5 sharps) not Ab Minor (7 flats), but Ab Major (4 flats) not G# Major (too many sharps to contemplate!). You could see D# Minor or Eb Minor (6 sharps vs 6 flats), but you'll see Eb Major (3 flats) not D# Major.

Here are all the keys I think are worth including:

C Major
G Major
D Major
A Major
E Major
B Major
F# Major
Gb Major
Db Major
Ab Major
Eb Major
Bb Major
F Major

A Minor
E Minor
B Minor
F# Minor
C# Minor
G# Minor
D# Minor
Eb Minor
Bb Minor
F Minor
C Minor
G Minor
D Minor

Now, you will see chord symbols written for ones not included there - for example, you might see Abm, or Dbm. But, you won't see a tune written in the key of Abm or Dbm - IME. Now that I've said that, some wiseass is probably gonna find me a counter example to prove me wrong :D

Still, I'm gonna stick by it. You wouldn't write a piece in Abm, you'd write it in G# minor. The reason is, the key signature is more friendly. G# minor only has 5 sharps, whereas Ab minor would have 7 flats.

I contend that I've never seen a piece written in any key that's not in that list I gave you. Technically, Ab minor (and Cb major therefore) exist as keys - the key signature is 7 flats - Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb Fb, but IME you don't see it used.

Whereas, G# major, for example - I'm not sure even exists as a key. The G# Major scale would be:

G# A# B# C# D# E# Fx

Where Fx means F Double-Sharp. I've never seen a key signature with double sharps in :D

Of course, not that you used G# Major in your list - I'm just giving some background info :)




And, as a minor (no pun intended) point, I'd say the scales contain 7 notes, not 8. They only contain 7 different notes, as soon as you add an 8th, you're repeating yourself. Sure, you tend to play them with 8 (at least) - as they sound more complete, but the scales themselves are 7 notes.

Originally posted by moley
Good work, Cass - but I'm afraid I've got some corrections for you.

F# Major should be F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#. It's E#, not F.

Ab Minor should be Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab. They're all flats, no naturals.

C# Major should be C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#. All sharps, no naturals.

Good Golly Miss Moley,
I was always taught there is no such notes as: E#, Fb & B#.

As for the other corrections you made, I dunno what you're talking about. ;) You better look again I dont see them. HEHEHE ;)

You've gotta remember that each scale can only contain one (no more no less) of each note name. So it can't go F G A A# C, because then, you've got 2 As, and no B. It's gotta have one of each note name in there.

Gard & I were talkin about this just last night too. I cant believe I posted 2 of the same notes in the scale. I still was always taught that there was no such notes as the ones I mentioned above though. That could be why I listed them as such. Humor me here OK. For all intensive purposes it IS the same note. ;)

Also, you've not really gone by the cycle of 5ths there. You have, up until F#, but then you went to F. The order, going by the cycle, should be:

C G D A E B F#/Gb C#/Db G#/Ab D#/Eb Bb F

I was actually gonna do it in that order. I dont fully have the circle commited to memory yet, but I tried doing it from memory and couldnt quite remember if you kept taking the scale clocwise around the entire circle. Or stopped at F#/Gb then started on F and worked your way counter clockwise to C#/Db. It was really late when I posted the thread. But thats no excuse because now that Im wide awake it makes sense to keeping going around clockwise to complete the circle. Im also thinkin "DUH" I knew that. I also said I could be wrong about the cirlce so thats why I provided the link. Just in case I was wrong he could have a correct reference.


Also note that you've included C# instead of Db, F# instead of Gb, Ab instead of G#, and Eb instead of D#. I think it's a better idea to include the enharmonics that you will actually see used.

You're right. I was trying to keep it as simple as possible for him right now because he says he's read all the threads on scales and still doesnt get it. I thought I did use Ab though. I think I have it listed as #11.

.

G# major, for example - I'm not sure even exists as a key. Its gotta exist somewhere because theres a G# note. Right? Not sayin that to discredit you. But it just sounds logical to me.

Where Fx means F Double-Sharp. I've never seen a key signature with double sharps in

I may not have known how to read it all that great back in my youth, but I dont ever recall seeing a Double Sharp in any piece of music either. Id definatly remember seeing something like that.

Of course, not that you used G# Major in your list - I'm just giving some background info :)

Its all good. I dont claim or even pretend to be an expert on the theory topic. So any little bit of information I can pick up is valuable to me.




And, as a minor (no pun intended) point, I'd say the scales contain 7 notes, not 8. They only contain 7 different notes, as soon as you add an 8th, you're repeating yourself. Sure, you tend to play them with 8 (at least) - as they sound more complete, but the scales themselves are 7 notes.

I agree with you on that. I know that when you play the 8th you're repeating yourself. I was merely trying explain to him why the root is also called the 8th. Just tryin to keep it as simple as possible right now thats all.

BTW..thanks for makin me feel like I dont know what I was doing ;)

Seriously, I appriciate the corrections. Was stupid mistakes on my part that couldve been prevented if I had just gotten off my lazy @ss gotten my book and double checked my work a bit better. Id also hate for him or anyone else to look like an idiot quoting what I said to someones, then goin "well cass told me it was like that"

Originally posted by Mama Cass
Good Golly Miss Moley

LOL! I gotta give it to ya, that's a good 'un. A whole lot more original than "Holy Moley", "Wholly Moley", "Guacamole" etc.

I was always taught there is no such notes as: E#, Fb & B#.

Heh, well there are. E# sounds the same as F, Fb sounds the same as E, and B# sounds the same as C.

But, yes, they do exist, and from a theory point of view, in scales, Fb and E are not the same.

Whoever taught you that E#, Fb and B# don't exist (did they also teach you that Cb doesn't exist?) was WRONG :D

As for the other corrections you made, I dunno what you're talking about ;) You better look again I dont see them. HEHEHE ;)

:D

Gard & I were talkin about this just last night too. I cant believe I posted 2 of the same notes in the scale. I still was always taught that there was no such notes as the ones I mentioned above though. That could be why I listed them as such. Humor me here OK. For all intensive purposes it IS the same note.

Well, they have the same pitch. But you're only gonna confuse matters if you start talkin' 'bout A#s in an F Major scale ;) And from a theory point of view, it's incorrect.

Ya know what, I was actually gonna do it like that too. I dont fully have the circle commited to memory yet, but I tried doing it from memory and couldnt quite remember if you kept taking the scale clocwise around the entire circle. Or stopped at F#/Gb then started on F and worked your way counter clockwise to C#/Db. It was really late when I posted it. But thats not excuse because now that Im wide awake it makes sense to keeping going around clockwise to complete the circle. I also said I could be wrong about the cirlce so thats why I provided the link as well.

Cool. It's not a problem, anyway, I just thought I'd point it out.

You're right. I was trying to keep it as simple as possible for him right now because he says he's read all the threads on scales and still doesnt get it. I thought I did use Ab though. I think I have it listed as #11.

You did use Ab, but not G#. You used Ab Minor rather than G# Minor. Which is cool, if you wanna play in Ab Minor, but from a practical standpoint, I think G# Minor is more useful to know.

Its gotta exist somewhere because theres a G# note. Right? Not sayin that to discredit you. But it just sounds logical to me.

Yeah. I don't really know the answer. Someone (Pac, Durrl?) wanna chime in? I've never seen a piece notated in G# Major, and doing so would involve having a double sharp in the key signature. Is that valid?

I may not have known how to read it all that great back in my youth, but I dont ever recall seeing a Double Sharp in any piece of music either. Id definatly remember seeing something like that.

They do occur in music, but I've only ever seen them as accidentals. The symbol for double-sharp is an x, like in the example I gave. Double flats exist too, and the symbol for that is just 2 flats - e.g. Ebb.

They tend to occur in pieces with key signatures with lots of sharps/flats. For example, if you're in G# Minor, the raised 7th will be a Fx (F double sharp). Because, it is a raised 7th, not a flattened root. So it wouldn't be G natural, it'd be Fx.

BTW..thanks for makin me feel like I dont know what I was doing

lol, sorry, I wasn't trying to do that. I just thought it best that people learn the correct note names for the scales.

Gee, I usre hope Moley see there is notin wrong with my post.

He might write a 15 page essay on the crap.

Originally posted by PollyBass
Gee, I usre hope Moley see there is notin wrong with my post.

He might write a 15 page essay on the crap.

Polly, the day you make a post about theory... well, we'll all have died from the pole shift, which will have coincided with hell freezing over.

Originally posted by moley


Polly, the day you make a post about theory...

And what makes you think I don't know a great deal of it?

Sounds kind of arogant to me.

Maybe I don't think I need to be a walking theory correction book.

There IS more to bass playing then theory, I hope you know. Say, playing bass in a band, and gigging.

Gigging. Not a computer microphone,,,, gigging.

I try to let emotian flow thru my bass rather than learned theory, so I guess I don't see the need to discuss it.

Good idea cass.

Thats all I have to say in this thread.

LOL! I gotta give it to ya, that's a good 'un. A whole lot more original than "Holy Moley", "Wholly Moley", "Guacamole" etc.

Glad you like it

I was always taught there is no such notes as: E#, Fb & B#.

Heh, well there are. E# sounds the same as F, Fb sounds the same as E, and B# sounds the same as C.

But, yes, they do exist, and from a theory point of view, in scales, Fb and E are not the same.

I really never knew that. Thanks!!


Well, they have the same pitch. But you're only gonna confuse matters if you start talkin' 'bout A#s in an F Major scale And from a theory point of view, it's incorrect.

Thats one of the things I really hate about theory.



You're right. I was trying to keep it as simple as possible for him right now because he says he's read all the threads on scales and still doesnt get it. I thought I did use Ab though. I think I have it listed as #11.

You did use Ab, but not G#. You used Ab Minor rather than G# Minor. Which is cool, if you wanna play in Ab Minor, but from a practical standpoint, I think G# Minor is more useful to know.

Its gotta exist somewhere because theres a G# note. Right? Not sayin that to discredit you. But it just sounds logical to me.


They do occur in music, but I've only ever seen them as accidentals. The symbol for double-sharp is an x, like in the example I gave. Double flats exist too, and the symbol for that is just 2 flats - e.g. Ebb.

The only time Ive ever seen anything double flatted or sharped has been on chord charts. like a ##5 or bb7 or somethin like that.


lol, sorry, I wasn't trying to do that. I just thought it best that people learn the correct note names for the scales.

I know, Im really glad you corrected me. I wouldnt want someone learning the wrong note names either.

hey...just skimmed this thread.


I apoligize for sounding like a dumbass.

and I appreciate the time you took to help me...


thanks alot man!

just copied 'em down...about to go try 'em out.


again...cass,thanks for taking your time to do this for me.


*HUG!*


...ok,sorry :hmm:







:)

Originally posted by PollyBass


And what makes you think I don't know a great deal of it?

Sounds kind of arogant to me.

Maybe I don't think I need to be a walking theory correction book.

There IS more to bass playing then theory, I hope you know. Say, playing bass in a band, and gigging.

Gigging. Not a computer microphone,,,, gigging.

I try to let emotian flow thru my bass rather than learned theory, so I guess I don't see the need to discuss it.

Good idea cass.

Thats all I have to say in this thread.

LOL, don't take it so seriously, Polly...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Osama_Spears
just copied 'em down...about to go try 'em out.
again...cass,thanks for taking your time to do this for me.

No problem, thats what this forum/sites all about. Glad I could be of some help. Dont forget to thank Moley too because if it werent for him/her you'd be learning some of the scales with the wrong enharmonic names, (same note, but wrong in theory terms)

Originally posted by cassanova
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Osama_Spears
just copied 'em down...about to go try 'em out.
again...cass,thanks for taking your time to do this for me.

No problem, thats what this forum/sites all about. Glad I could be of some help. Dont forget to thank Moley too because if it werent for him/her you'd be learning some of the scales with the wrong enharmonic names, (same note, but wrong in theory terms)

crap...I gotta change 'em a bit.


so,the Bb would be C?


I am getting used to the note names and stuff already.

I learned 2 scales tonight...gonna go for 4 tomorrow...this is fun:)

dun mean to be a pest...but can yah repost the correct versions of the 12 maj. scales?

I'd greatly appreciate it,thanks!

C Major:
C D E F G A B C

G Major:
G A B C D E F# G

D Major:
D E F# G A B C# D

A Major:
A B C# D E F# G# A

E Major:
E F# G# A B C# D# E

B Major:
B C# D# E F# G# A# B
/
Cb Major:
Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb

F# Major:
F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#
/
Gb Major:
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb

C# Major:
C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#
/
Db Major:
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db

G# Major:
G# A# B# C# D# E# F## G#
/
Ab Major:
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab

D# Major:
D# E# F## G# A# B# C## D#
/
Eb Major:
Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb

Bb Major:
Bb C D Eb F G A Bb

F Major:
F G A Bb C D E F

*Hope these are correct. Some scales, I'm sure, aren't really used (like D# Major). I put them in there to show enharmonics (notes that are played on the same fret and string but have 2 different names).

Natural minors in what should now be the propor order of the circle of fifths C-G-D-A-E-B-F#/Gb-C#/Db- G#/Ab-D#/Eb-Bb-F



1.C

C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C

2.G

G-A-Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G

3.D

D-E-F-G-A Bb-C-D

4.A

A B C D E F G A

5.E

E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E

6.B

B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A-B

7.F#

F#-G#-A-B-C#-D-E-F#

8.C#

C#-D#-E-F#-G#-A-B-C#

9.Ab

Ab-Bb-Cb-Db-Eb-Fb-Gb-Ab

10.Eb

Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-Cb-Db-Eb

11.Bb

Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb

12.F

F G Ab Bb C Db Eb F

You nailed it this time, Cass :cool: ...

...but for one mistake, you posted C# Major instead of C# Minor ;) (no.8 on the minors list).

Originally posted by cassanova
...Dont forget to thank Moley too because if it werent for him/her...

Him, definitely ;)

Originally posted by moley
You nailed it this time, Cass :cool: ...

...but for one mistake, you posted C# Major instead of C# Minor ;) (no.8 on the minors list).

correction made.

Originally posted by cassanova


correction made.

Cool.

You nailed it this time, Cass :)

Ok,I'll copy these new ones in a bit...


thanks alot,all of you!


so...like do I learn all of them by heart?


then where do I go from there?

thanks again...you guys rule! :)

Originally posted by Osama_Spears
Ok,I'll copy these new ones in a bit...


thanks alot,all of you!


so...like do I learn all of them by heart?


then where do I go from there?

thanks again...you guys rule! :)

Yep, you learn them all. Then learn how to play them in all registers, high and low. Then I'd suggest getting into basic chord theory. That will help you select from the scale notes which ones you want to play with a particular chord or riff.

ok...


and how would this affect/improve my song writing?

just curious,not trying to be smart


also...whats a double-sharp?

example:F## on D#(Major)?

Originally posted by Osama_Spears
ok...


and how would this affect/improve my song writing?

just curious,not trying to be smart


also...whats a double-sharp?

example:F## on D#(Major)?

Well, there are a lot of potential ways, and there isn't space to get into them all--not that I even know them all, or even close--so let me just mention a generality or two.

Knowing scales can help you understand how and why different combinations of notes sound the way they do. This, in turn, can help you understand how others get the sounds they do, so you can avoid, borrow, refer to, or steal those sounds. It can help you get the sounds you hear in your head out into your hands, and it can help you hear new sounds. It can help you play the things you hear. It can help you with harmony and with building parts. That should be enough to start with, right?

A double sharp is exactly what you think it is. Instead of raising a note a half tone (one fret), you raise it a whole tone (two frets). C double-sharped, in our tuning system, sounds like D (that is, the two are enharmonic equivalents). For analytical purposes, however, C double-sharped is different from D. BTW, double sharps are usually notated with a symbol loking something like an x, or a multiplication symbol, rather than two sharps. I have no idea why, but that's how it is.

Originally posted by Osama_Spears
ok...


and how would this affect/improve my song writing?




It help's you to stop "searching" all over your neck for the "right" notes...you'll begin to know what "works" and what "does'nt" ALOT faster.

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
BTW, double sharps are usually notated with a symbol loking something like an x, or a multiplication symbol, rather than two sharps. I have no idea why, but that's how it is.

I always assumed it's because two sharps take up a lot more space, and are a bit clumsy to read. The x symbol is neater.

Oh, and good post, Rich :)

Ok,I pretty much got the Major Scales down pat...

I figured out that they're WWHWWWH so,I just went from there...

I still need a bit practice...and thats what I'll do.


but I am just curious...whats the next "step?"

-Jon:o

I dont mean to offend you Osama, but I seriously doubt you have them all down and commited to memory in such a short time. There is more to knowing the scale than just the pattern. You should know the pattern and the name of the note you are playing and each notes interval.

Originally posted by cassanova
I dont mean to offend you Osama, but I seriously doubt you have them all down and commited to memory in such a short time. There is more to knowing the scale than just the pattern. You should know the pattern and the name of the note you are playing and each notes interval.


None taken man...

I got the pattern down,and I am still working on the names,as I play it...you're right.


but,I was just curious...

this is exciting :)

I seem to remember having written a lesson about all this stuff. Hmmm, where is it now? :cool:

:D

Originally posted by jazzbo
I seem to remember having written a lesson about all this stuff. Hmmm, where is it now? :cool:

:D

He was refered to that lesson of your bro. He said he read all the posts on scales and didnt understand any of them, so I tried to put it in the simplest way possible and this thread was the result.

:(

I'm Dumb.

Originally posted by Osama_Spears
I'm Dumb.

That's very un-PC of you. We prefer the term intellectually challenged.

Just kidding, man. :D

It can be interesting to take profit of the symetrical nature of our instrument.
Scales will always have the same "shape" on the neck, regardless of the key.
If you play with the mental picture of that shape in your head and "visualize" notes on it, all scales from the key instantly come out.

Such shapes also are useful when improvising, because if you travel inside the shape you can be sure you won't be out of tune.

Here is what the key of C looks like on a fretboard.
http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/scaleshape.jpg

although it means nothing musically, the whole fretboard can be geometrically divided into 2 basic shapes.
http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/scaleshape1.jpg and http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/scaleshape2.jpg

With a little habit, you will know where you are and associate each position with their degrees.

The greyed frets represent the root (I).

Originally posted by jazzbo
I seem to remember having written a lesson about all this stuff. Hmmm, where is it now? :cool:

:D

Jazzbo, your theory guide helped me out a lot when I first started lurking around TB; you should add a section on modes described as clearly and simply as the rest of the guide. My main problem with learning how to use them seems to be that whoever is writing the lesson on them assumes you have all the previous theory completely memorized, and unfortunately my mind just doesn't work that way. I think you could write them out in a very easy-to-understand format.

Originally posted by Osama_Spears
Ok,I pretty much got the Major Scales down pat...

I figured out that they're WWHWWWH so,I just went from there...

I still need a bit practice...and thats what I'll do.

but I am just curious...whats the next "step?"

-Jon:o

You shouldn't be in such a hurry to move on to something else, keep working with the major scales.

Have you memorized the notes? Can you play the scale while saying those notes? Can you play them up and down the fretboard in 2 octaves? How about intervals? There's lots to be done before moving on to something else.

I'm sure learning the minor scales in the same way will be the next thing, but you need to be sure you have these major scales down.

By the way, please don't call yourself dumb. It's not good to put yourself down like that just because you're not getting the hang of something. The key is to practice until you do get it. :)

Originally posted by Bryan R. Tyler


Jazzbo, your theory guide helped me out a lot when I first started lurking around TB; you should add a section on modes described as clearly and simply as the rest of the guide. My main problem with learning how to use them seems to be that whoever is writing the lesson on them assumes you have all the previous theory completely memorized, and unfortunately my mind just doesn't work that way. I think you could write them out in a very easy-to-understand format.

I've thought about that, except I think I would rather discuss chord function. It just seems to me that too much is made of modes, because, let's be honest, most of us are not jazzers. Most of the people here play some style of popular music, and modes are damn near useless. When was the last time you heard Radiohead use dorian?

Originally posted by jazzbo


I've thought about that, except I think I would rather discuss chord function. It just seems to me that too much is made of modes, because, let's be honest, most of us are not jazzers. Most of the people here play some style of popular music, and modes are damn near useless. When was the last time you heard Radiohead use dorian?

Screw Radiohead-it's all about ME ME ME!!! :D

Originally posted by jazzbo


Most of the people here play some style of popular music, and modes are damn near useless.

Actually, I don't think this is entirely true. A whole lot of popular music is, or can be, modal, at least some of the time. Tons of folk music for example. Maybe I lsitened to too much Neil Young growing up, but I heard a lot of modal in the music of the day. I don't know if you know "Down By the River," but a big part of that is just Em(7) to A. That's dorian (if you follow the chord tones and don't just play Em pentatonic). And any time you see a I bVII IV progression (e.g., "Sweet Home Alabama"), that's diatonically mixolydian. Modes are all around us!:D

Originally posted by jazzbo
It just seems to me that too much is made of modes, because, let's be honest, most of us are not jazzers. Most of the people here play some style of popular music, and modes are damn near useless. When was the last time you heard Radiohead use dorian?

I'm not sure that's true either, Jazzbo.

I don't know when I last heard Radiohead use dorian, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did.

I most certainly could be wrong, as I'm not familiar with much of popular music; however, my main point really is that when beginning an understanding of music theory, after focusing on your major, minor, and perhaps, pentatonic scales, it is far more important, in my mind, to begin an analysis of harmonic function, and harmony in general, then it is to begin some desire to learn modes. While you would never want to limit your musical vocabulary, in any genre, it's putting the cart before the horse in my mind, as how do you know how to apply locrian, when you still don't understand harmony?

I agree wholeheartedly about the importance of harmony and harmonic function. I guess I don't see why modes should necessarily come after, or separate from, that--or indeed why they need to be separated from major, minor, and pentatonic scales. After all, a scale is a mode is a scale.;) And you can't use even a major scale without some understanding of harmony either, so modes aren't radically different in that regard.

Yes!!Everything is "connected".This seems to be the universal misconception,and not enough teachers address it,from the outset with new students...harmony and melody(chords and scales)"combine" to make music.Focusing on one without the other makes no sense.

Thats some cool theory.

Just 2 things:

-Could you please tell me which minor goes with the major, cause I keep asking and forgeting the answer.

-How do modes work, I don't get them. I've had a go at learning the theory but I can't figure out how they are applicable, so I get bored and don't finish learning. An endless cycle, courtesy of a short att...

If my questions are answered elsewhere in the forum, I apologise; I'm new here.

Keep up the good work,
Josh D

Originally posted by daveze
Thats some cool theory.

Just 2 things:

-Could you please tell me which minor goes with the major, cause I keep asking and forgeting the answer.

If you're talking about relative minors - then the rule is that the relative minor is a minor 3rd below the major. A minor 3rd being 3 semitones (half-steps). So, the relative minor of C Major is A Minor. C to B to Bb to A = 3 semitones.

-How do modes work, I don't get them. I've had a go at learning the theory but I can't figure out how they are applicable, so I get bored and don't finish learning. An endless cycle, courtesy of a short att...

Look at Jazzbo's theory lesson, there's a link to it earlier in this thread.

Basically, the modes of the major scale are scales formed by playing the major scale starting from different degrees of the scale.

Originally posted by moley


Basically, the modes of the major scale are scales formed by playing the major scale starting from different degrees of the scale.

Well ... kinda but not really. Basically they're tonalities, or modalities, of their own. They don't have to have any connection with "standard" major or minor. They can be *derived* from the major scale, and they occur naturally in major harmony, but they're really their own beast.

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey


Well ... kinda but not really. Basically they're tonalities, or modalities, of their own. They don't have to have any connection with "standard" major or minor. They can be *derived* from the major scale, and they occur naturally in major harmony, but they're really their own beast.

That's exactly what I meant, Richard.

When I said they are formed by playing the major scale starting from different degrees of the scale, that is exactly what I meant - they're derived from the major scale. I didn't say they had to have any connection with the standard major or minor.




ARGH@People not reading me right!!! It happens to much, it pisses me off!! :mad:

EDIT: Sorry, just not having a good day today.

Originally posted by moley


That's exactly what I meant, Richard.

When I said they are formed by playing the major scale starting from different degrees of the scale, that is exactly what I meant - they're derived from the major scale. I didn't say they had to have any connection with the standard major or minor.




ARGH@People not reading me right!!! It happens to much, it pisses me off!! :mad:

EDIT: Sorry, just not having a good day today.

No sweat. Everybody has those days. From your usual posts, I probably should have figured that's what you meant anyway.

Originally posted by jazzbo
then it is to begin some desire to learn modes. While you would never want to limit your musical vocabulary, in any genre, it's putting the cart before the horse in my mind, as how do you know how to apply locrian, when you still don't understand harmony?

Ya know Ive got issues with the modes myself. I know majors, the 3 variations of the minors, pentatonics, arpeggios, etc. But I never really put much empahsis on the modes and when to apply them. I see a set of charts major & minor changes in them, My brain just knows what notes/intervals I have to/can flatten to make that particular set work without me sayin "ok, ill play this one in locrian, dorian, mixolydian, aeolian, etc.

Its never bit me in the ass yet. One day it might, I dunno. But is knowing mode really that important as it would be to simply knowing majors, all the variantions of the minors and how to apply them?

Originally posted by cassanova


But is knowing mode really that important as it would be to simply knowing majors, all the variantions of the minors and how to apply them?

It's most important to know(fluently)what different types of chords those scales can produce,get a handle on that and you'll immediately demystify this mode thing.Everything is connected in music,you can't decide what to learn and what not to learn or you never put all the pieces together.

Originally posted by ConU


It's most important to know(fluently)what different types of chords those scales can produce,get a handle on that and you'll immediately demystify this mode thing.Everything is connected in music,you can't decide what to learn and what not to learn or you never put all the pieces together.


Im workin on somethin similar if not the same thing you suggested with the scales and chords they form up. Stuff like why a B bass works over a Chord. I forget exactly what its propor term is called but at least have some knowledge of why it works.

I know everythings connected and its just a matter of connecting all the dots to put it all together. I wasnt implying that one didnt need or shouldnt learn the modes..

If I never put all the pieces together thats ok with me. I dont believe one needs to know every aspect of theory to be a good musician. It just speeds up the process IMO.

Originally posted by cassanova





If I never put all the pieces together thats ok with me. I dont believe one needs to know every aspect of theory to be a good musician. It just speeds up the process IMO.

Man,I have a BA in music,and a ton'o'experience and I'm not even close to putting all the pieces together...that's the fun part,you keep learning with this music thing,stop learning and it ain't so much fun anymore:cool:
(just don't look at modes as something foreign to what you already know,they're right there in front of you)

Originally posted by jazzbowl
I've thought about that, except I think I would rather discuss chord function.
I agree that understanding this is very important. Understanding chord structure and function is, IMO vital to being musical. And if you can get to the point where you can "hear" the type of chord being played then you are way ahead of the game. If someone sits down at a piano and plays, say, an Am7 chord, could you hear that that's what it is without looking at the piano? If you can, and you know your scales, then you can plug in a proper scale over it without even thinking. Then your brain becomes a tool instead of a crutch. I think chord structure is one of the most important things you can learn.

Hope that didn't get too far off topic!