I often seem to have the problem of distinguishing time signatures which are a multiple of each other; most of the time its the difference between 3/4 and 6/8.

Often when I count 6/8, I would count:
1 2 3 1 2 3 etc etc

Is this where am I going wrong? Should I count:
1 2 3 4 5 6 etc etc.

How does everyone else distinguish between time signatures that are a multiple of each other?

Thanks for any advice :cool:

Ok, well the key difference here is the number on the bottom - 4 vs 8. In this context, the fact that there is an 8 on the bottom indicates that it is compound time, rather than simple time.

The 4 indicates simple time, and (in this case) the 8 indicates compound time.

With simple time, each main beat is divided into 2. So, with 3/4, the main beat is a quarter note, and each main beat is divided into two 8th notes.

Whereas, with compound time, each main beat is divided into 3. So, with 6/8, the main beat is a dotted quarter note, and each main beat is divided into three 8th notes.

So, while 3/4 could be counted as: 1 2 1 2 1 2
6/8 could be counted as : 1 2 3 1 2 3

Each of the 1s represents a main beat of the bar.

So, 3/4 is three lots of two, and 6/8 is two lots of three.

It's the 8 on the bottom that is the indicator of this. 3/8, 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8 are assumed to indicate compound time. That is, they are assumed to indicate 1 lot of 3, 2 lots of 3, 3 lots of 3, and 4 lots of 3, respectively.

Whereas the 4 on the bottom is assumed to indicate simple time.

Other time signatures with 8 on the bottom, such as 5/8 and 7/8 are *not* assumed to indicate compound time (5 and 7 are not multiples of 3). The beat grouping for 5/8 and 7/8 varies, and is generally indicated.

Compound vs simple is also the difference between a tune being played 'straight' or 'swung'. Straight being where each beat is divided into two, and swung being where each beat is divided into three. Although, tunes intended to be played with a swing feel (usually) won't be written in compound time.

Compound time is a multiple of 3, no???

:confused:

Originally posted by moley
Ok, well the key difference here is the number on the bottom - 4 vs 8. In this context, the fact that there is an 8 on the bottom indicates that it is compound time, rather than simple time.

The 4 indicates simple time, and (in this case) the 8 indicates compound time.

With simple time, each main beat is divided into 2. So, with 3/4, the main beat is a quarter note, and each main beat is divided into two 8th notes.

Whereas, with compound time, each main beat is divided into 3. So, with 6/8, the main beat is a dotted quarter note, and each main beat is divided into three 8th notes.

So, while 3/4 could be counted as: 1 2 1 2 1 2
6/8 could be counted as : 1 2 3 1 2 3

Each of the 1s represents a main beat of the bar.

So, 3/4 is three lots of two, and 6/8 is two lots of three.

It's the 8 on the bottom that is the indicator of this. 3/8, 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8 are assumed to indicate compound time. That is, they are assumed to indicate 1 lot of 3, 2 lots of 3, 3 lots of 3, and 4 lots of 3, respectively.

Whereas the 4 on the bottom is assumed to indicate simple time.

Other time signatures with 8 on the bottom, such as 5/8 and 7/8 are *not* assumed to indicate compound time (5 and 7 are not multiples of 3). The beat grouping for 5/8 and 7/8 varies, and is generally indicated.

Compound vs simple is also the difference between a tune being played 'straight' or 'swung'. Straight being where each beat is divided into two, and swung being where each beat is divided into three. Although, tunes intended to be played with a swing feel (usually) won't be written in compound time.

Thanks Moley, very comprehensive answer :cool:

One other thing though: I've always understood 5/4 to be compound time, but from what you are saying, it can't be as 5 is not a multiple of 3, and it has 4 at the bottom. I'm sure you're right in what you're saying, but I was always sure 5/4 was compound time :confused:

Originally posted by Microbass
Compound time is a multiple of 3, no???

:confused:

Yes, a multiple of 3 on top, and 8 on the bottom.

Originally posted by bass87


Thanks Moley, very comprehensive answer :cool:

You're welcome :)

One other thing though: I've always understood 5/4 to be compound time, but from what you are saying, it can't be as 5 is not a multiple of 3, and it has 4 at the bottom. I'm sure you're right in what you're saying, but I was always sure 5/4 was compound time :confused:

Not by any definition of compound time that I'm aware of. 5/4 is an irregular time signature, but it's simple, not compound.

Originally posted by moley


Not by any definition of compound time that I'm aware of. 5/4 is an irregular time signature, but it's simple, not compound.

Thanks for clearing that up Moley :cool:

i just read that fully. good post Moley! :D

Originally posted by Microbass
i just read that fully. good post Moley! :D

Thank you :)

Originally posted by moley


Yes, a multiple of 3 on top, and 8 on the bottom.

Actually Moley, compound is the multiple of 3 on top, regardless of the number on the bottom - as the number on the bottom is how it's written. 9/8 or 9/16 really have no difference (other than an indication of tempo) - they're both compound.

And odd times are complex time.

Wait, hold on a sec. I'm pretty sure it's the other way around

I would count 3/4 as 1 2 3
6/8 as 1 2

It seems that 3/4 is just 4/4 cut a bit shorter, as are most time sigs in 4, and 6/8 would be 2 dotted half notes. In like all the music I've ever played or watched with a conductor, the conductor would always count 6/8 in 2 sets of 3 eight notes. The strong beats are on 1 and 4, so 6/8 is 123456, with the wand going down on the bold notes.

Originally posted by Pacman


Actually Moley, compound is the multiple of 3 on top, regardless of the number on the bottom - as the number on the bottom is how it's written. 9/8 or 9/16 really have no difference (other than an indication of tempo) - they're both compound.

Yes, good point.

However, 3/4, 6/4 etc are not compound time, even though the number on the top is a multiple of 3.

Originally posted by Davy0
Wait, hold on a sec. I'm pretty sure it's the other way around

I would count 3/4 as 1 2 3
6/8 as 1 2

It seems that 3/4 is just 4/4 cut a bit shorter, as are most time sigs in 4, and 6/8 would be 2 dotted half notes. In like all the music I've ever played or watched with a conductor, the conductor would always count 6/8 in 2 sets of 3 eight notes. The strong beats are on 1 and 4, so 6/8 is 123456, with the wand going down on the bold notes.

Yes.

How is that "the other way around"? That's exactly what I said.

I said 3/4 is 1 2 1 2 1 2

And 6/8 is 1 2 3 1 2 3

And the 1s are the main beats. I'm counting the 8th notes there, just to show the difference between 6/8 and 3/4, and where the main beats lie.

Originally posted by moley


Yes, good point.

However, 3/4, 6/4 etc are not compound time, even though the number on the top is a multiple of 3.

This was my understanding as well

(I know, a theory post, but it's about odd time sigs, and i REALLY like odd time sigs.)

Originally posted by moley


Yes.

How is that "the other way around"? That's exactly what I said.

I said 3/4 is 1 2 1 2 1 2

And 6/8 is 1 2 3 1 2 3

And the 1s are the main beats. I'm counting the 8th notes there, just to show the difference between 6/8 and 3/4, and where the main beats lie.

Oh yeah. I feel dumb. I just re-read your post. Yeah I guess yeah I guess I'm tired. Sorry man, you're definitely right on the mark. I'm not sure where I got the idea you said the opposite. Sorry.

The feel difference between 3/4 and 6/8 is good to get down -- but I would still count both as 123456! Just

3/4: 1 2 3 4 5 6

6/8: 1 2 3 4 5 6

Though I'd count 3/4 as quarters - (half speed) 1 2 3

edit: my point being, I wouldn't put a "one" in the middle of a measure.

I think that's a good point gesh. Especially when you're playing compliated rythms, subdivision is a great tool to help you stay on the beat.

Originally posted by geshel
The feel difference between 3/4 and 6/8 is good to get down -- but I would still count both as 123456! Just

3/4: 1 2 3 4 5 6

6/8: 1 2 3 4 5 6

Though I'd count 3/4 as quarters - (half speed) 1 2 3

edit: my point being, I wouldn't put a "one" in the middle of a measure.

I'd count 3/4 that way too. If the tempo is slow enough that you want to count the subdivisions, rather than counting to 6, it's probably better to do it this way:

3/4: 1 and 2 and 3 and

Most of the time, I find it easiest to count 6/8 this way:

6/8: 1 and a 2 and a

Originally posted by moley




However, 3/4, 6/4 etc are not compound time, even though the number on the top is a multiple of 3.

IME 6/4 is grouped as compound duple,the beat being 2 dotted halfs and the quarter note the pulse rather than the beat.

Originally posted by ConU


IME 6/4 is grouped as compound duple,the beat being 2 dotted halfs and the quarter note the pulse rather than the beat.

Compound duple implies 6/8, I reckon.

6/4 can be grouped like that - but I still don't think it counts as compound time, because the main beat is still a quarter, and it's still divided into two 8ths.

Maybe it's a difference in the way this is taught, but the way I learnt it, it 6/4 is simple not compound.

Originally posted by ConU


IME 6/4 is grouped as compound duple,the beat being 2 dotted halfs and the quarter note the pulse rather than the beat.

Hmm ... that hasn't been my experience. When I've encountered 6/4, it's more often been just a straight 6. Sometimes it sounds like 4 + 2, or sometimes even like a fast 3.

But there is no unanimity on this stuff.;) It's sometimes possible to write things more than one way. For instance, check out that John Hiatt song "Cry Love." I could hear that either as 6/4 or as 3/4 at half the tempo.

Interesting...the few times I've encountered 6/4,it's been easier for me personally to subdivide the bar in 2,perhaps because that's the way I was taught.
edit. a quick check of Thr Royal Conservatory "elementary rudiments of music" lists 6/4 as compound time...does'nt mean it's right though.;)

Originally posted by ConU
a quick check of Thr Royal Conservatory "elementary rudiments of music" lists 6/4 as compound time...does'nt mean it's right though.;)

:hmm:

I'll check my music dictionary when I get home, but I'd swear that 6/4 isn't compound time...

Originally posted by ConU


IME 6/4 is grouped as compound duple,the beat being 2 dotted halfs and the quarter note the pulse rather than the beat.

Mine as well - Compound duple, with the dotted half note as the unit of beat.

You can't really call it 'simple sextuple' time, can you?

I was thinking about this the other week at my local Jazz club, so there was a Quintet led by Pete Wareham (3 horns, bass and drums) and the last number sounded really strange - I was sitting with a few people I know and next to another local bass player and we were trying to work out what was happening as we could see the bass player was struggling!! ;)

So I thought I counted a repeating pattern of 11, but the tune kept geting faster - deliberately, so it was hard to tell.

Pete Wareham said it was an original tune written by the trumpeter, so afterwards I went up and asked him about it - basically wanting to see if I had been right about 11! ;) He told me it was in 21 :eek: - and it was supposed to have three plateaus of ever-increasing tempo, linked by separate written passages....I think my brain exploded at this point!! ;)

Pete Wareham said it was an original tune written by the trumpeter, so afterwards I went up and asked him about it - basically wanting to see if I had been right about 11! He told me it was in 21 - and it was supposed to have three plateaus of ever-increasing tempo, linked by separate written passages....I think my brain exploded at this point!!

Ouch, holy moly that sounds like a killer!

"Soooo, we want you to goove in 21, OK? 123467..."

IME 6/4 is grouped as compound duple,the beat being 2 dotted halfs and the quarter note the pulse rather than the beat.

what does "duple" mean - terminology i've never heard before?
ta
:)

...and way to go moley, tis indeed a post of almost epic value right back at the start there

Originally posted by Howard K
what does "duple" mean - terminology i've never heard before?
ta
:)

It means 2 main beats in the bar. 2/4 is duple, as is 6/8.

...and way to go moley, tis indeed a post of almost epic value right back at the start there

Thanks :)

It means 2 main beats in the bar. 2/4 is duple, as is 6/8.

OK, so 2/4, is duple because you have two 1/4 beats in the bar. No problem

6/8... as per your earlier post the main beat in the bar is a dotted 1/4, divided into six 1/8th notes... so two dotted quarters in the bar makes it 'duple'

i just had to sit here and work it out on a calculator, 0.25 x 1.5 / 3 x 8 = 1.

maths, whoa, that's a fead huck

goddit. dont much like that silly word tho :hmm:

Originally posted by Howard K


Ouch, holy moly that sounds like a killer!

"Soooo, we want you to goove in 21, OK? 123467..."



Well I could see him explaining it to the bassist before the number and he told me afterwards that it was sort of subdivided into little riffs of 9, 7 and 5 beats - so it had this kind of blocks in 3s going on!!

:hmm:

Well I could see him explaining it to the bassist before the number and he told me afterwards that it was sort of subdivided into little riffs of 9, 7 and 5 beats - so it had this kind of blocks in 3s going on!!

"Mommy, make the nasty rhythm stop"
:bawl:

You could play that symatrically as: 12345 1234 123 1234 12345. hellish!

Man, stuff like that just has so many options, so cool... one day I'll be good enough to play stuff like that!
How old was the bassist, please dont say 17 or something, I want to feel I can grow into this kinda stuff!

so moley,
i understand the examples in your post, but you stated that 6/8 "in this case" the /8 meant compound time.
Can you define compound time for me?

Originally posted by Howard K
so moley,
i understand the examples in your post, but you stated that 6/8 "in this case" the /8 meant compound time.
Can you define compound time for me?

Yes, compound time means each main beat is subdivided into three, rather than two. With 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8, the main beat is a dotted quarter - which is divided into three 8ths.

Irregular time signatures such as 5/8 and 7/8, are not compound.

Hmm. . .21. . .so the question is, when do you put it in 21/8, and when do you use 9/8 + 7/8 + 5/8?

Like David Torn's "Snapping the Hollow Reed" -- 8 + 7 + 8 + 6, or 29/8?

Anytime I've seen this stuff the time sig will change from bar to bar or so...ie:1 bar of 7,1 bar of 5,1 bar of 3,1 bar of 6 etc.depending on the feel of the composition, rather than writing the piece in "21" or whatever,although "11" is used,Dave Holland likes that one:cool:

I think the largest notated signature I've seen is 13/8, and yeah I've seen the time split up far more often.

One interesting case though is when the sum of all the funny stuff adds up to something normal: for instance 9+8+7 (Tool's "Lateralus") adds up to 24. Four bars of six, with funny accents? Or 9+8+7? I recently transcribed a guitar piece I was learning, and kept it in 4/4 as much as possible -- there were a number of turnarounds in the middle of the bars, but the larger pattern repeat fell on a 4/4 boundary. My guitar teacher reworked it to use many time signatures - I'm not kidding:

11/8 + 8/4 + 8/4 + 13/8 +
11/8 + 8/4 + 8/4 + 13/8 +
11/8 + 8/4 + 13/8 +
3/4 + 5/4 + 2/4 + 6/4 + 6/4


and so on and so forth.

thanks moley goddit. :)

Originally posted by Howard K


"Mommy, make the nasty rhythm stop"
:bawl:

You could play that symatrically as: 12345 1234 123 1234 12345. hellish!

Man, stuff like that just has so many options, so cool... one day I'll be good enough to play stuff like that!
How old was the bassist, please dont say 17 or something, I want to feel I can grow into this kinda stuff!

The bass player was Phil Donkin and the drummer Tom Skinner - they looked quite young and get mentioned as "the best of new young Jazz talent" "Jazz rising stars" etc

I found this on the net :

"Phil is just coming to the end of four years at the Guildhall School of Music during which time he worked with such luminaries as Jim Mullen, Henry Lowther and Phil Lee and is an up-and-coming bassist to watch out for."

http://www.jazzservices.org.uk/tour/LozSpeyersTIMEZONE.htm

oh well, that's my hopes and dreams shattered then! ;)

only by having time to do full-time study will i ever get that good :(

Originally posted by geshel
Hmm. . .21. . .so the question is, when do you put it in 21/8, and when do you use 9/8 + 7/8 + 5/8?


Well - I actually went up to the composer and asked him about it, as I mentioned.

But if people don't trust my account, they can always contact Tom Arthurs who was the trumpet player/composer in question.

He has his own website :

http://www.tomarthurs.co.uk/

Here's a quote about Tom :

'I learnt something that night!' (Following performance of Tom's music at Banff Centre)
'It is so nice to hear a group of young musicians creating some new music. And Tom Arthurs' band, Centripede is just that - Bravo!'

[Joe Lovano, saxophonist]

I thought the bottom number describes which note gets one beat. I.E. In 3/4 time a quarter note gets one beat. In 6/8 time an eight note gets one beat. I could be wrong though.

Originally posted by Rick Blanc
I thought the bottom number describes which note gets one beat. I.E. In 3/4 time a quarter note gets one beat. In 6/8 time an eight note gets one beat. I could be wrong though.

Yes, you're right, but it's not quite as simple as that with compound time. 6/8 designates 6 8th notes in one bar - but the *main* beat isn't an 8th note, it's a dotted quarter. Not entirely logical, you could say - but that's just the way it's done, so I guess you just have to know it.

aah, i see!
...that was what was confusing me a little about your description of compound time in relation to 6/8.
i understood what you were saying, but i had saw a conflict there, so i'd just assumed it was "one of those things that just are"! :D

Originally posted by Rick Blanc
I thought the bottom number describes which note gets one beat. I.E. In 3/4 time a quarter note gets one beat. In 6/8 time an eight note gets one beat. I could be wrong though. Not necessarily - that, I believe, is why compound time is given that name... eg. 6/8 feels like two beats, each subdivided into three (see moley's post, some way above).

Out of interest, would playing a piece in 2/4 and using eight note triplets in one bar be functionally equivalent to playing in 2/4 but inserting a bar of 6/8? Or would a bar of 6/8 last as long as 1.5 bars of 2/4 (without additional notation of a time change)? I assume the latter is the case, but would be interested on what others think.

Wulf

Originally posted by wulf
Out of interest, would playing a piece in 2/4 and using eight note triplets in one bar be functionally equivalent to playing in 2/4 but inserting a bar of 6/8? Or would a bar of 6/8 last as long as 1.5 bars of 2/4 (without additional notation of a time change)? I assume the latter is the case, but would be interested on what others think.

Ahh, well it depends. Generally, when there is a time sig change like that, you need to specify which note value stays constant. It could be either way.

Above the stave you might see something like eigth = eigth (but with eigth notes instead of the word 'eigth'). That would indicate that the length of an 8th note stays constant - which would mean that the 6/8 bar would be as long as 1.5 2/4 bars. However, you could see quarter = dotted quarter (again, notes, not words) - and that (I think, but that could be the wrong way round, it could be dotted quarter = quarter, I forget) would indicate a quarter in 2/4 is equivalent to a dotted quarter in 6/8. That would mean that the main beat stays constant, but it goes from being divided into 2s to being divided into 3s. Like going from a straight feel to a swing feel.

Originally posted by Rick Blanc
I thought the bottom number describes which note gets one beat. I.E. In 3/4 time a quarter note gets one beat. In 6/8 time an eight note gets one beat. I could be wrong though.

That's true to a degree, but that's what gets us compound time to begin with. 6/8 for example is compound duple, or two beats divided into three parts each. That means the dotted quarter gets one beat, and there's no number for dotted quarter. So in compound time, the bottom number is the divided beat. See?