I want to run scales on my bass with my 10 yr old on his trumpet.
I can never remember what the math is in the key transposition. i.e. If i'm in EMajor what key is that on the trumpet?
Are all brass tuned the same or do saxes differ from trumpet, trombone etc.?
I should know this....
Peace and Thanks!

Originally posted by mcbassdude
I want to run scales on my bass with my 10 yr old on his trumpet.
I can never remember what the math is in the key transposition. i.e. If i'm in EMajor what key is that on the trumpet?
Are all brass tuned the same or do saxes differ from trumpet, trombone etc.?
I should know this....
Peace and Thanks!

Hey! I think that's great that you are doing that with your little one!

E major on bass is F# major on trumpet

Bass is one step lower (concert pitch) than the trumpet.

Hope this helps!

Most trumpets are Bb instruments - that means that when the trumpeter says he's playing C, the note actually comes out as Bb ;)

Note that there are a range of other transposing instruments - eg. saxes are often in Eb (is that the rule for alto or tenor? I forget now, but I think it's alto) - the key is that the note referred to in the name (Bb trumpet, etc) is what comes out when they read the note a non-transposing instrument would take as C.

If you want to be kind to your ten year old, start with keys like concert Eb (trumpet F), Bb (C), F (G) and C (D), not concert E.

Wulf

Originally posted by wulf
eg. saxes are often in Eb (is that the rule for alto or tenor? I forget now, but I think it's alto)
Wulf

Alto and baritone are Eb, soprano and tenor are Bb.

I thought that was the case (keeps things nice and simple in my band, where we have Bb trumpet and Bb tenor sax).

Are there any variations to that rule, or saxes outside the baritone / tenor / alto / soprano group that are set in other keys?

Wulf

Alto sax is in Eb.

Originally posted by wulf
Are there any variations to that rule, or saxes outside the baritone / tenor / alto / soprano group that are set in other keys?

Wulf

No, that's pretty much the rule. However, there is, or at least used to be, something called the C melody sax, which I think was a nontransposing instrument--but don't quote me on that as I'm really not sure. I seem to recall that somebody named Frankie Trumbauer may have played one back in the day? There is also a sopranino, which logically would probably be an Eb instrument, though I've never seen one outside the credits for a Jethro Tull album. Finally, there is the bass sax, which logic says is probably a Bb instrument.

Originally posted by wulf
Most trumpets are Bb instruments - that means that when the trumpeter says he's playing C, the note actually comes out as Bb ;)

Note that there are a range of other transposing instruments - eg. saxes are often in Eb (is that the rule for alto or tenor? I forget now, but I think it's alto) - the key is that the note referred to in the name (Bb trumpet, etc) is what comes out when they read the note a non-transposing instrument would take as C.

If you want to be kind to your ten year old, start with keys like concert Eb (trumpet F), Bb (C), F (G) and C (D), not concert E.

Wulf

Thanks for the help! He'll be jammin' Kind Of Blue in no time!
So the above keys are easier to play on trumpet?
Is trombone in Bb as well?
Again Thanks for the tip.
Peace

Originally posted by mcbassdude
So the above keys are easier to play on trumpet? Is trombone in Bb as well?The above keys are going to be more familiar to a beginning trumpet player, assuming that he starts out learning the notes of C major on the trumpet (which sounds like Bb concert pitch) and then starts to learn sharps and flats in the order they get added to key signatures (F#, C#, G#, etc and Bb, Eb, Ab, etc). As discussed in the other thread referred to above, certain keys will be harder to play in tune due to the combination of valves you have to use for some of the notes, but the ones round trumpet C / concert Bb should be a good starting point.

I think the trombone is a non-transposing instrument - ie. if the trombonist says he's in C, you can trust him :D . However, I could well be wrong!

Wulf

Actually, trombones are Bb, I'm pretty sure. At least normal tenor trombones, anyway.

Sorry, my mistake.The three types of trombones most often used are the alto trombone, tenor trombone, and bass trombone. Of these three, the most common is the tenor trombone. The tenor and bass trombones are typically in the key of Bb. The alto, more rarely used, is typically in the key of Eb, or sometimes F...(source = http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1452/history.html)

Wulf

what a doer!

so a Bb horn player is playing a C and the note that actually comes out is Bb?

how on earth does that work then?

is this just a notation thing or what?

Originally posted by Howard K
what a doer!

so a Bb horn player is playing a C and the note that actually comes out is Bb?

Yup!

how on earth does that work then?

Well, it's just to do with what pitch the instrument is appropriated to. With Bb trumpets, without holding down any valves (i.e. open fingering), you'll get the Bb harmonic series. That's what's meant by it being a Bb trumpet. In the old days, before brass instruments had valves, you had to have a different horn for each key. When valves were introduced, that meant you could play in every key. But there are still trumpets in different keys - you can get Bb trumpets, C trumpets, Eb trumpets, and I think maybe A trumpets and D trumpets too.

Now since a trumpet player will quite possibly want to play different kinds of trumpets keys, it makes sense to make the note produced with open fingering (no valves down) the same. So, with trumpets, open fingering is always C, whatever key the instrument is in.

It gives you something constant across all the different trumpets.

Imagine if trumpets, regardless of key, all operated at concert pitch... if you were playing a Bb trumpet, open fingering would be Bb, and all other fingerings would be worked out in relation to that. Supposing then you wanna play a C trumpet. Suddenly, open fingering is C, and you're dealing with a whole different set of fingerings. Confusing! Whereas, by keeping open fingering as C across all trumpets, and transposing the *music* to suit, you can just think of the song as being in a different key, and it's all much easier. I reckon that transposing the music is easier than having to remember different sets of fingerings for each note, depending on what trumpet you're playing.

The same goes for saxes.

is this just a notation thing or what?

It relates to notation. Music for transposing instruments is written in the key appropriate for that instrument. So if the song is in C major, the trumpet parts will be transposed up to D, so when played on a trumpet, they come out in C. Supposing, then, the trumpet players decide they want to play C trumpets, instead - they'll have transpose the part back down a tone. But, at least the same fingerings will be associated with the same notes - so C is always open, Bb is always 1, A is always 1+2 etc.

Now, as for why Bb trumpet (not C trumpet) has become the standard, I don't know...

Originally posted by Howard K
what a doer!

so a Bb horn player is playing a C and the note that actually comes out is Bb?

how on earth does that work then?

is this just a notation thing or what?

The Bb horn player is playing what is written in their music as a "C" - what is heard is a "Bb". If they were playing an Eb instrument, the music is written so that when they finger a "C" (as written on their music) the note which is produced is an Eb. Now, the observant reader will notice that as far as the player is concerned, they are fingering a "C' in both cases, and with a little thought the reader will realise that this is just a simple trick to allow a player of instruments of different sizes (sopranino, soprano, alto, tenor, baritone, bass saxophones, for instance) to need only to learn one system of fingering, instead of a different system for each sized instrument.

Neat eh?

- Wil

Neat... until they decide to pick up a piano and vocals arrangement book, sit down to blow through the changes with a pianist and then realise they have to transpose everything at sight! :eek:

It's good where you've got a steady supply of pre-transposed music but if you don't, it can be a pain (my wife plays clarinet but one of the reasons she hasn't used it more at church is that most of the time we're working from guitar chords or piano / vocal arrangements - Clarinet is generally another Bb instrument).

Wulf

Originally posted by wulf
Neat... until they decide to pick up a piano and vocals arrangement book, sit down to blow through the changes with a pianist and then realise they have to transpose everything at sight! :eek:

It's good where you've got a steady supply of pre-transposed music but if you don't, it can be a pain (my wife plays clarinet but one of the reasons she hasn't used it more at church is that most of the time we're working from guitar chords or piano / vocal arrangements - Clarinet is generally another Bb instrument).

Yes. But you can't have it both ways :)

IMO, it's the way it should be. Transposing music is easier than learning a whole bunch of different fingerings. Especially for sax players. It is very common for sax players to play more than one kind of sax. I don't reckon it's all that unusual for a sax player to play tenor, alto and soprano. I know that I would, ideally, like to play all three.

If sax players had to learn different fingerings for each sax, it would be a nightmare.

I maintain it's easier to transpose the music.

I think the key here, is to think of the music in terms of scale degrees. Don't think of the tune as being C D E, think of it as being 1 2 3. Don't think of Summertime as E C E D C D E C A E E C D D C A C A C B. Think of it as 5 3 5 4 3 4 5 3 1 5 5 3 4 4 3 1 3 1 3 2.

That way, when the singer says she wants to do it in C# minor, as long as you're familiar with the key, you're ok.

One good reason to practice everything in all keys.

I think a skill that people who play transposing instruments should develop, is the skill of transposing from a concert pitch score. Trumpet and clarinet players should learn to transpose up a tone.

Originally posted by moley


It is very common for sax players to play more than one kind of sax. I don't reckon it's all that unusual for a sax player to play tenor, alto and soprano.

Well, it happens, but IME it's not terribly common to play the whole family. A number of tenor players double on soprano (a la Coltrane, Wayne Shorter, Branford Marsalis), but this may be a little less in vogue than it was a while ago, I dunno. Alto players never seemed to me to double quite as much--at least not in public; who knows what they do in private. Not that many people I can think of play both alto and tenor (Ornette Coleman comes to mind) or both alto and baritone. Both alto and tenor players may double on flute (e.g., Sonny Fortune). Some double on bass clarinet too (Eric Dolphy, David Murray). Baritone players seem to be mostly bari players, period. I guess that big horn is a demanding, uh, partner.

moley, that's a very thorough explanation, thank you!

I was thinking about this ages ago (I used to have regular jams with a mate who played sax) and I kind of figured that it was because different horns would produce different notes 'naturally' (that's how i'd got to grips with open fingerings in my mind), so the written music had to be transposed such to accomodate, but i never quite got my head around it!

so basically the horn player can change between differnt types of the same horn, the fingerings will be the same and he just has to transpose the music.

i'm with you there moley - that does sound much easier than learning knew fingerings.

for example, when you play 5 string for the first time you dont have to learn knew fingerings because the additional string is tuned the same, but when i play guitar i have to constantly remember that the b string is tuned a semi-tone lower than the others.

anyway, that's very interesting :)

Originally posted by Howard K
moley, that's a very thorough explanation, thank you!

You're welcome :)

I was thinking about this ages ago (I used to have regular jams with a mate who played sax) and I kind of figured that it was because different horns would produce different notes 'naturally' (that's how i'd got to grips with open fingerings in my mind), so the written music had to be transposed such to accomodate, but i never quite got my head around it!

so basically the horn player can change between differnt types of the same horn, the fingerings will be the same and he just has to transpose the music.

Exactly.

i'm with you there moley - that does sound much easier than learning knew fingerings.

for example, when you play 5 string for the first time you dont have to learn knew fingerings because the additional string is tuned the same, but when i play guitar i have to constantly remember that the b string is tuned a semi-tone lower than the others.

Yes, same kind of idea. Imagine playing a violin or cello, for example, the strings are tuned in 5ths. *That* would be confusing :D

the best analogy i can thnk of is like in many written transcriptions of rock albums. you drop the tuning of your bass a semi-tone and the notation remains the same.

Yes, same kind of idea. Imagine playing a violin or cello, for example, the strings are tuned in 5ths. *That* would be confusing

I bought a double bass recently, before I did so I made damned sure it was tuned the same as EB. I think I'd have bought it anyway, but I'm damned glad the tunings are the same! ;)

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey


Well, it happens, but IME it's not terribly common to play the whole family.

I can tell you that we require sax players to play the whole family, as do all the service bands. It's pretty obvious, though, that some guys play one horn better than the other. I had a guy in my quartet who was really working his tenor chops, but everytime he picked up his alto it was like "yeah, that's your horn!"

Originally posted by Pacman


I can tell you that we require sax players to play the whole family, as do all the service bands. It's pretty obvious, though, that some guys play one horn better than the other. I had a guy in my quartet who was really working his tenor chops, but everytime he picked up his alto it was like "yeah, that's your horn!"

Yeah, I know what you mean. I've worked with people who could play bari to soprano, and pretty well too, but I can't think of one who I thought sounded like *every* horn was his or her horn. Such folks must exist, I guess, but I haven't run across them.

Originally posted by Pacman


I can tell you that we require sax players to play the whole family, as do all the service bands. It's pretty obvious, though, that some guys play one horn better than the other. I had a guy in my quartet who was really working his tenor chops, but everytime he picked up his alto it was like "yeah, that's your horn!"

i have also played with a lot of sax players, but most of them when they pick up a sax you think,
"yeah, that's not your horn, either!"

:D :D

san antonio - there's no place like it

Originally posted by nojazzloco


i have also played with a lot of sax players, but most of them when they pick up a sax you think,
"yeah, that's not your horn, either!"

:D :D

san antonio - there's no place like it

Thanks, man! I got a great laugh out of that.

Did you ever work with Jim Butler?

Originally posted by moley


I think the key here, is to think of the music in terms of scale degrees. Don't think of the tune as being C D E, think of it as being 1 2 3. Don't think of Summertime as E C E D C D E C A E E C D D C A C A C B. Think of it as 5 3 5 4 3 4 5 3 1 5 5 3 4 4 3 1 3 1 3 2.

That way, when the singer says she wants to do it in C# minor, as long as you're familiar with the key, you're ok.

One good reason to practice everything in all keys.

Yes Yes, this was a stumbling block for me years ago. I always dreaded a key change for a singer. Then I started to think of the intervals, the fifth, fourth, third, etc. Really makes changing the keys fairly brainless.
It's kinda like giving directions, rather than say left or right you say east west and it's always the same. Did that make sense?
My old bass instructor really stressed playing the scales everywhere on the neck. Play it on one string, two strings three strings, etc. from the bottom to the top. It was real easy at the beggining to fall into the geometrical pattern and not pay attention to what the intervals were.

Which brings up this question, is there more than one fingering for a scale on trumpet as on a bass where you can play the same notes at different fret positions? Octaves are done with embouchure yes?
Again Wulf, and the others thank you for the lesson! I want to get my boy playing some fun stuff, not just twinkle twinkle. I wish music teachers would start kids off with a simple motown or stax tune instead of these ancient nursery tunes. Gonna have him playing "Midnight Hour" b4 too long!
PEace

Originally posted by mcbassdude
Which brings up this question, is there more than one fingering for a scale on trumpet as on a bass where you can play the same notes at different fret positions?

Yes, there are alternate fingerings. However, unlike bass, the alternate fingerings have the disandvantage of being less in tune than the standard ones.

Octaves are done with embouchure yes?

Yes. But not just octaves :D

Embrouchure is a big part of the trumpet. There are only seven fingerings used (not counting alternative fingerings), and from this, you gotta get all the notes.

For example, with open fingering (no valves down), you can get the following notes:

C G C E G Bb C

And then it carries on, higher, they get closer together and more out of tune.

However all those notes have the same fingering - the only thing determining which one comes out is embrouchure.

moley, i gotta ask.. how do you know all this stuff man?!

for other Tb'ers, i went to a covers gig of moleys band recently, it was a great gig - a fantastic band.
this moley chap is so young, yet has so much knowledge!!! he puts me to shame!

Originally posted by Howard K
moley, i gotta ask.. how do you know all this stuff man?!

Well, I know the trumpet stuff 'cause I play the trumpet ;)

for other Tb'ers, i went to a covers gig of moleys band recently, it was a great gig - a fantastic band.
this moley chap is so young, yet has so much knowledge!!! he puts me to shame!

You're too kind Howard :)

Originally posted by wulf
Neat... until they decide to pick up a piano and vocals arrangement book, sit down to blow through the changes with a pianist and then realise they have to transpose everything at sight! :eek:





It's considered "professional" to provide horn players with transposed charts,but in the real world they're expected to read concert pitch.The overwhelming majority I've met do,and well.(show-offs;) )

you play trumpet as well!!! :eek:

My fiancé (...such a tacky word!) wants to learn saxamaphone, I've said I'll pay for half her lessons if she teaches me everything she learns... that way she gets to reinforce the content of her lessons and I get to pick up some basic sax :) I think I might be looking forward to it more than she is!

So that's piano, fretless bass, trumpet... what else may be lurking in the depths of your repatoire I wonder? :D

accordion, lute, banjo?

You need to share some of your solo work me thinks!

Originally posted by Howard K
you play trumpet as well!!!

Yup! Haven't I mentioned that to you before?

My fiancé (...such a tacky word!) wants to learn saxamaphone, I've said I'll pay for half her lessons if she teaches me everything she learns... that way she gets to reinforce the content of her lessons and I get to pick up some basic sax :) I think I might be looking forward to it more than she is!

So that's piano, fretless bass, trumpet... what else may be lurking in the depths of your repatoire I wonder? :D

Guitar, a little sax (I mess around), and of course vocals.

accordion, lute, banjo?

Heh, I've played a little banjo in the past, but I don't intend to again :D

You need to share some of your solo work me thinks!

All in good time...

trumpet, yes i think you probably have actually.. my memeory is selectivley poor. some things go in, some go through... like the names of band members for example :rolleyes:

so, piano, trumpet, bass, guitar, sax and vocals - a regular one man band!

Q: do you come from a musical family?

Originally posted by Howard K
trumpet, yes i think you probably have actually.. my memeory is selectivley poor. some things go in, some go through... like the names of band members for example :rolleyes:

LOL!

so, piano, trumpet, bass, guitar, sax and vocals - a regular one man band!

Heh, yup!

Q: do you come from a musical family?

A: Yes :)

My dad is very musical, as are his brothers (used to be four, now three). His younger brother - my uncle - is the guitarist in that band. Also, my mum's dad was a composer. We're still getting royalties! :)

My dad is very musical, as are his brothers (used to be four, now three). His younger brother - my uncle - is the guitarist in that band. Also, my mum's dad was a composer. We're still getting royalties!

Aaah that explains it. I think it's one of those things that definitley gets passed down. I really want my kids (when I have them) to grow up around music, it's one of the very few really rewarding things that could actually make a great career.. fine art is hardly a contender ;)

No one in my family is remotely musical, but my dad is a big listener - i grow up listening to all sorts of classical stuff, Jean-Michael Jarre and Bob Dylan...

I'm in the studio next week with my rock band. We're in Studio A and Metropolis in Chiswick - our singer blagged a weeks studio time after putting a load of work there way (he's in A&R for WEA London Records), so we have about £2000 per days worth of studio, pro-tools and engineer for five days, for free, woo hoo, I'm excited now!

If this demo comes out sh1t, it's time to qu1t!

Originally posted by ConU


It's considered "professional" to provide horn players with transposed charts,but in the real world they're expected to read concert pitch.The overwhelming majority I've met do,and well.(show-offs;) )

Yes - the Jazz professionals, I've met - at workshops, summerschools etc. - can all do this - they seem to be able to transpose from anything instantly!

But the standard of horn players I'm likely to play with, won't even consider playing from concert unless they're given a few weeks' notice!! ;)