Forgive me if this topic has been covered before, but I did a search and couldn't find it. A couple of weeks ago, I had a lesson with my teacher, and he wanted me to take a shot at the old "Stick O' Pain". Since I don't own one (and didn't really want to for many reasons), he brought me an old one of his and left it with me to use indefinitely.

Anyway, the bow he brought is a French bow, and we worked on the grip and getting a good sound with the bow. All was good, but the more I try to practice with it, the more I have this nagging feeling that the French grip is not for me - it puts a very unnatural torque on my right shoulder, especially when playing on the G string. I tried holding the bow in the German fashion, and even though the grip is all wrong, I was able to get a good sound much more easily, and my shoulders immediately felt more comfortable. This leads me to believe that I may just be a "German grip" type person by nature.

The question is, how is this decision of which grip/bow to use normally made? What are the factors involved besides "my teacher played French, so I did too"?

Thanks in advance, and feel free to rag me mercilessly if it amuses you. :)

Chris, this is not a decision you can make just yet - bowing is an art form, and it takes a while to get the mechanics down. (I've been playing for 2years and am just starting to get my grip relaxed and loose).

I think for jazz, you're going to find French the right one for you - ask Lynn when he comes there to show you some stuff.....

I played cello for 10 years before I went to the bass. That and the fact that my first teacher played French made it a very easy transition for me.

I have , however, just started playing German in the last year and I am finding it fairly hard to control. So obviously it takes some time to switch sticks and gget it right.

Hey Chris,
I don't think the problem is in the type of bow you choose. Some people say that german is louder or french more delicate, but really it is about how you use them. In my life, I have seen very gruff french players, or powerhouse sounds from frnch- check out Hal Robinson, the Philly principal, he could knock a grown man down with his sound. I have also seen some very delicate german bow players, especially from Paul Ellison's studio. I would try to maybe get my hands on both, or just try to hold your french bow like a german bow sometimes, at least to figure out what you like about the way your shoulder feels- then you can transfer that to your french bow use. It does sometimes help to use the bow your teacher uses, because they will be more articulate usually about how to use it, but just about everything is transferable.

(If you can't transfer it, excluding grip, then it probably isn't something you should be doing)

Chris:

No matter which grip you choose, be aware that the best sound is produced with the weight of your arm, not torque produced by your wrist/arm/shoulder. If your right shoulder is jutting forward or hunching and feels tight, you're probably not using the right arm's weight effectively.

I play French, by the way, because I also converted from cello. I'd like to explore the German bow, though. Maybe I should've been playing it all along.

I play German standing up. I read in one of your post one time you play setting if I remember right. I think setting French may be easier. I`m no expert but I think String crossing would be easier with a French setting down.

Dave

imo, people aren't by birth french or german. Any bass player can (and should) learn and play either grip. Which one you stick with is simply preference. If you're having trouble playing french bow, it's definately a problem with your technique and not the bow itself. Maybe try talking to some other players in your section/ school or whatever, or some pro players in your area. Sometimes it takes a different teacher to figure out whats wrong with your technique when something's not working for you.

Originally posted by toman
If you're having trouble playing french bow, it's definately a problem with your technique and not the bow itself.
In individual instances this can be true, but as a generalization, I consider it to be without foundation. I had two exceptional French bow teachers, both in the bass section of the Met, one a teaching assistant to Gary Karr. Both found my technique proper. The bow, made by Susan Lipkins, was excellent; I sold it to a teacher from Peabody Inst. I never was able to play French for more than a half hour before discomfort set in.
I switched to German and never looked back.
There's not a doubt in my mind that someone can be a "German grip type person by nature." I'm one of them.

Thanks for the replies everyone. Looks like I need to get my hands on a cheap German bow and do some A/B comparisons. It'll be a while before I have another lesson for logistical reasons, and I'm not having much luck getting at all comfortable with the French grip. I'll head over the the BOWS forum and do some reading now...

From Gary Karr's Web site:

Question:
I'm a bass student of only a few months now, but I am completely stricken with the instrument. I use a German bow instead of French, and was interested when I found out you do as well. I use it because my teacher does, though he teaches both. I have not really found one better than the other, as I have also played a little with a French bow. I would really appreciate some information from a professional on the subject, why you would choose German over French.
Thanks for listening -
Josh

Gary Karr’s Answer:
Your question is probably to most frequently asked question in the world of doublebass. Since we are blessed with two different kinds of bows, it's inevitable that every bassist will wonder about the merits of each. The best way to discover the answer is to try both bows and learn how to operate them correctly and efficiently. I recommend this because the answer is a very personal one. Most bassists find that one of the two bows works better, but the reasons for this have more to do with the fact that we're all different and the final choice is based on arm length and weight, height and build of the player, size of the hand, posture with the doublebass, sitting or standing, to mention only a few of the many variables. In general, I have found during my 40- plus years of teaching that the most common reason to choose one bow over the other has to do with arm length. The German bow because of the 90 degree angle in the hand shortens the arm considerably which affects the placement of the bow between the bridge and the fingerboard. On the other hand, the French bow, because of the straight line from the arm to the hand, adds some length to the arm. Therefore, players with short arms often find the French bow easier to handle. I chose the German bow because I have very long arms and my family goes back many generations of German bow players. Since I felt comfortable with the German bow from the beginning, I didn't find any reason to change my family's tradition. However, I did learn to play French bow, but because of my long arms, I still found the German bow easier to control.

That's pretty much what I was going to say...

Holding the bow with a short arm? This I gotta see.

As it turns out, a buddy of mine has a German fiberglass bow that he doesn't use much, and he's going to let me try it for awhile. I'll try both and see what comes of it. Thanks for the replies from all helpful parties - it's replies like these that remind me why I value this place so much.

BTW, I have very long arms.

I dunno, I have pretty short arms and I seem to do allright with german bow. I switched from french about five or six years ago, I think. Although, I did spend a lot of time working out issues with my bowing technique due to the fact (apparently) that I have short arms and a rather large bass. But it did come together eventually, though it still needs work... ;) and I still prefer german to french.

hmmm.. my teacher decided for me (german) + we only have german bows at the Musikschule (thats where i learn electric+double bass), but personally I prefer the feel of a french bow but that is mainly because I used to play cello



Hey, I think this is my first post in the TB DB section...

Originally posted by l0calh05t
Hey, I think this is my first post in the TB DB section...
Welcome; there's a first time for everything.
My first road tour included Frankfurt, where we played at Jazz Keller. Ever been there? We met fabulous musicians from Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden. That place swung HARD. (1957)

Haven't been at the Jazz Keller yet ,but I will hopefully be able to go there soon because I was told that it is really nice

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
As it turns out, a buddy of mine has a German fiberglass bow that he doesn't use much, and he's going to let me try it for awhile. I'll try both and see what comes of it. Thanks for the replies from all helpful parties - it's replies like these that remind me why I value this place so much.

BTW, I have very long arms.

Hey Chris,
Just curious which Bow you went with and hows it going? You are still practicing right?

Dave

Originally posted by davegr8house


Hey Chris,
Just curious which Bow you went with and hows it going? You are still practicing right?

Dave


Practicing? What's that?

Seriously, I just started a new university teaching gig and have been pretty busy, so I haven't been doing much arco practice the first few weeks. But when I do, I still go back and forth between the French and German bow holds, for now both on the French bow, which is by far the better of the two. The bright side of the story is that my teacher is the "legit" bass instructor at the University, so I get to talk to him quite a bit. He says that I'm not hurting anything by doing what I'm doing, and that the most important thing right now is to learn how to get a sound out of the string that I can control. We'll talk about the virtues of both styles in our next lesson.

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
I tried holding the bow in the German fashion, and even though the grip is all wrong, I was able to get a good sound much more easily,

I play French but I've noticed the same thing if I flip it upside down and play "German" style. I've attributed it to the fact that the outward edge of hair isn't used as much but still gets rosin so as to make it seem to stick better. Maybe I'm a German guy and just don't know it yet haha. Will you be at the KMEA convention this year Chris? If I'm not mistaken I'll be playing with the EKU symph. orchestra.

FRIDAY THE 13th,

Glad to hear I'm not the only one. :) If I make it to any convention this year, it will probably be IAJE, but even that is doubtful at this point. Have fun at KMEA, and let me know how your grip ends up.

Didn't Paul Chambers use German bow?

How about most of the other the other earlier "famous" bowed solo-takers? Maybe they were on to something?

The first thing you want to do in either case is to stop thinking of it as a "GRIP".

Though French requires a lot more "gripping" action and causes a lot more hand problems, both bows should be "held" in a "cradle", not gripped!

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
FRIDAY THE 13th,

Glad to hear I'm not the only one. :) If I make it to any convention this year, it will probably be IAJE, but even that is doubtful at this point. Have fun at KMEA, and let me know how your grip ends up.


If you go, we have to get a beer together man!

Originally posted by Pacman
""I might only get to the IAJE convention...""

If you go, we have to get a beer together man!

Actually, for me, the convention *I'm* most likely to go to is the GREAT AMERICAN BEER FESTIVAL in Denver, Colorado, on September 25th, 2003!

Whichever bow you choose to "cradle", your hands will be well trained for "cradling" the appropriate glassware for your Real Beer of choice - the crafty kind which bass players eventually, typically gravitate towards....

Originally posted by Pacman



If you go, we have to get a beer together man!


I've been officially off the alchohol-type beverages for many a year now, but if I can go, you can bet we'll have a hang. How's about coffee/beer?

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald



I've been officially off the alchohol-type beverages for many a year now, but if I can go, you can bet we'll have a hang. How's about coffee/beer?

absolutely, but do you think we'll find a place to get a decent cup of coffee in New York? :D

HI all,

My vote goes with playing the bow your teacher uses. Not to be obedient and servile, but rather, if you learn their style you'll get the most out of them. I had a great French bow teacher back in high school (Ms. Monty Montjoy -Edmonton Symphony), and a great German bow teacher (Mr. Ken Friedman -Vancouver Symphony) at University. Now I know a bit about both styles, and have found German style to be a great advantage to me.

When I teach, I am careful to make sure the student knows that all musical choices are ultimately theirs to make. But I also tell them that my experience has it's strengths, and that they will benefit most by trying my suggestions, at least for a while.

I think it doesn't really matter in the long run which bow you play, the main thing is to get serious about the lessons you take with an excellent teacher as soon as possible.
Laurence

(Sorry for the long rant!):o

I think that earlier in this thread I went on about my bow history with the cello yada yada. At any rate I experiemnted with German and find it useful in certain situations but I have gone back to French for the most part.

I think there are a lot of factors that go into which bow will get you a better sound, including everything Mr. Karr stated, plus the quality of the bow and of the instrument. A cheap instrument with a cheap bow will sound thin and if that bow happens to be French a player can cook up some excellent tendonitis trying to get a good sound out of it. That's what happened to me and why I originally switched to German. (by the way, are we still mad at the French? If so, should we start calling it the "Liberty bow" or "Freedom bow" or something?) The way the leverage works with the German bow makes it easier to get deeper hair contact with the string, which is why a French bow held German will instantly sound louder. I eventually switched back because I couldn't get any sense of stability from the German.

I think though, that even if you have a predisposition to one bow, you should use whatever your teacher uses. If you have the option of studying with a specialist of either, then go with what seems to work best for you. But switching to a bow that your teacher can't help you use, based solely on principle or inclination, is something I'd advise strongly against.

I think it doesn't really matter in the long run which bow you play, the main thing is to get serious about the lessons you take with an excellent teacher as soon as possible.

I couldn't have said it better, and I can relate to those words from experience!

This might be totally of to helping your situation. Having studied with two french bow teachers myself, I was playing german before hand but enjoyed french more. However, the jump from german to french made me question my motives.

What I did for a week to get the grip down and relaxed was carry a bow around the house for 2-3 hours holding the grip properly. Watching TV/reading and whatever if you have spare time hold it. After this I felt the control over the french bow left much more relaxed espcically was able to play for a long time.

PS; I'm in need a of a better french bow, there is a guy in my area Winnipeg,MB who makes them but I don't have 1800+ to dish out, because of univeristy payments.

My first bow was French (a Glasser) and when I showed up to my first lesson my teacher wnated me to try German as that was what he had learned on. I said no, so he borrowed a French bow from his repair guy and we went along for a few weeks until he suggested I try HIS German bow, which was indeed more comfortable so I switched then we were both happy :D

Maybe it was just poor technique, but playing French then and now makes my wrist sore pretty quickly.

My daughter started out on cello, so when she switched to bass the French bow made sense for her.

I'm a bit red faced with this, but yesterday I spent some time with a German hold on my French bow. I think I'd like to try a german bow... I immediately felt that I could relax my hand more, and the weight of my arm more naturally dropped the bow into the string (rather than having to 'push' it into the string). I also was able to play with more articulation than I normally can with french grip.


That sound you hear is my preconcieved notions shattering :o

Pac, I did a little French bow exploring and ended up playing around with trying to balance the stick with washers held by the screw, as the tip was too heavy for me to use the bow without having tension problems fast. It ended up working like a champ, and I started enjoying using the French bow for a change (but not enough to abandon my German bow, which is still the bow for me).

If you're not personally opposed to experimenting with weights on your French bow this way, you may have some luck here as I did. Or consider trying other French bows as you try German bows and see if you can find a French bow that lets you play as long as you want, rather than as long as you can.

Well, I'll definitely look into that - I'm always experimenting with something - but I'd think that a bow that was nearly a thousand dollars would be pretty well balanced. Who knows though? Maybe what works for someone else's hand won't work for mine....

Originally posted by Johnny L
If you're not personally opposed to experimenting with weights on your French bow this way, you may have some luck here as I did.

One way to add balance weights is to put pennies, etc., between the hair and the mortis wedge at the tip! try it!

That's a really great idea to weigh down the tip, KPO...and much cleaner than what I would have tried to do.

Hi folks-
I'm a German bow player who is trying hard to learn the French bow because my new teacher (who is considered the best in the area) only teaches French bow. He said he could teach German, but I'd learn more from him if I did French. Its been about a month now and I'm doing OK, however I still use the German bow for performances. I have a lesson comming up, but I just thought I'd ask a few questions first:

1) How is the arm weight best transfered to the strings with the French. Is it the index finger? I especially have trouble at the tip when starting the upbow.

2) My teacher told me that my hold "looks" right. I'm trying for a relaxed flexable hold, but when I play it seems that my thumb is pushing too hard and it always ends up with an painful indentation after I finish playing for while. I also have trouble with the bow sliding out of my (sweaty) hand. Any ideas from all the French bow players out there?? I'd appreciate it because I'm starting to think the French is not for me.

Tom Martin, on the 2xbasslist, recommends the index finger be a little separate from the other 3 fingers, but the other three should be close together.
He describes a "power triangle" between pinkie, index finger and thumb, with the other fingers filling in the middle.

The weight should come through all the fingers, and that happens best when they're close to each other; supported by each other.

The thumb should be "weight-neutral", simply holding onto the stick.

I think German is much better for learning, and for weight transfer in general - German thumb doesn't have to be "neutral" like in French.

I'm not sure I'd say the thumb is "neutral". It's very much a part of a proper French hold. Seems to me that it's just a personal preference more than anything. Some people just seem to really take to one bow hold or the other.

I have been reading the opinions on French vs. German in this thread and thought I'd chime up.

I am sure I probably missed this somewhere so if this a repeat please excuse me.

The fact is there are very inherent differences in both bows. For example I find it is easier to get a strong sound using German but fast passages and ricochet techniques were easier on French.

So to end this without being to lengthy, I think it is important to learn both. The more tools you have the more complete a player you will be.

Just my 2 cents.:D