In another thread (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=9055 in the technique forum) I went so far to say that I in general don't like arco playing on the DB in any kind of swing or bop oriented mainstream jazz.

I was anxious to include this "swing or bop" qualification because on the other hand there is some arco playing of jazz bass players that I like very much (I've solo work of Dave Holland and Miroslav Vitous in mind, though I wouldn't insist on calling that "jazz"). However, as soon as the bass player in a swing or bop standard reaches for the bow for soloing, I would rather skip that solo and go one with the closing melody.

Of course this opinion is open to revision. I think that the jazz setting most suited for the sound of a bowed bass that I like would be some kind of ballad. Unfortunately I know of no examples of bowed bass solos in jazz ballads.

Any suggestions for listening?

Stefan

How about Slam Stewart? His bowed solos are IMO Great music, not to mention his humming in unison, only an octave higher. His duo works with Slim Gaillard are by the way also hilarious! And if someone says it´s not "jazz", I have one old recording, where Slam is playing in Lionel Hampton´s band, the piece is Star Dust, and Slam´s hummed & bowed solo is one of the greatest I´ve ever heard. Listen to this guy...
Of course there are many players who do bow solos for Bop tunes and everything they want. I´m sorry that the only music including arco solos ( except for this Lionel LP ) I have myself, are some 50´s & 60´s recordings w P.C. or sometimes Ron playing stuff. I really can´t distinguish whether it´s great art or crap ( ´cause you know the sound...).
When I listen to those things, I always get a strange feeling of relief when they put the bow away and get back to the head out....

I mentioned about Christian McBride's latest solo album - "SciFi". Track 9 is "Butterfly Dreams" by Stanley Clarke, which is a very nice ballad in this context (I haven't heard the original) with some very nice bowed solos - wonderful tone!

Avishai Cohen also does some nice bowed solos, but he might be regarded as more "crossover" than Jazz.

I'm sure I've heard a lot of "bowing in Jazz records - it's just a question of remembering where this is. At my local Jazz club, the bassists very often do bowed solos. I remember Richard Davis playing with a bow on the Eric Dolphy classic : "Out to Lunch".

As far as straighahead jazz is concerned, you can hear some beautiful, melodic arco soloing from Christian McBride, Eddie Gomez and the very underrated George Mraz, to name a few. Vincent Charbonnier--Jacques Loussier's bassist--also has excellent arco technique, though the music has an obvious classical bent. Stanley Clarke is capable of drawing an almost voicelike tone from a bowed bass, but I've never hear him do it in a straight bop context.

Admittedly, compelling arco bass is very hard to do in traditional jazz. However, this seems to be the case for all bowed strings! (How many good jazz violinists can you name? Grappelli, Ponty, Carter, Nance, Lockwood, Feldman...that's it for me!)

Originally posted by Christopher
Admittedly, compelling arco bass is very hard to do in traditional jazz. However, this seems to be the case for all bowed strings! (How many good jazz violinists can you name? Grappelli, Ponty, Carter, Nance, Lockwood, Feldman...that's it for me!)

This may be because it's hard to swing with the bow, let alone play bop lines. With the triplet feel and accents
falling on the weak beat it takes some thought and practice.
To see what I mean try bowing swinging eighths on just one
note detache. If you're placing the accent on the second eighth and giving it a slightly longer duration you have to
compensate the length of the stroke. It's not to tough on one note. Next try playing a two or three octave scale detache in swing eighths, that's a little harder. Now try playing a Parker head. I was working on Ornithology this morning. That's not too tough, but you're able to think about the bowing and the fingering in advance. The bow knows what it has to do. Try improvsing, it's not so easy getting the bow around.

Much of PC's sound can be attributed to plain gut strings and black horsehair. Really it's amazing it sounds that good, because when improvising you not only have to get the
bow to the string with the note, you have to think about bow speed and pressure and measuring your stroke to be prepared for wherever you're going.

Check the Tyrone Brown String Sextet _Song for the Sun_. All strings, and they burn (the parts I've heard on the radio at least). I love the sound of all the strings too.

John Coltrane "Ole"
somewhere on this cd there is a smoking 2 bassplayer bow solo.
Art davis and Reggie Workman
Check it out

Forgot to mention Anders Jormin ( one of my great favorites ), who plays a two and half minutes intro for one tune in Charles Lloyd´s title "Notes From Big Sur". That´s worth listening too, even though it´s as far from Bop solos as it possibly could. Anyhow, things he does with the bow sound great in that context.
Well, when you come to think about it, there´s a lot of bowed jazz around.
DAVID K: You´re absolutely right about PC´s sound attributed to plain guts & black horsehair. Slam also had that kind of setup, not to mention his old Kay and a lowsy 15-dollar bow.
I once read a story somewhere ( don´t remember where ) that when Slam was playing in Philly with someone´s band, there were the whole Symphony Orchestra Bass section sitting in front of the stage tryin´to figure out how he got that incredible sound...

Other than soloing, I like that one line on Mingus' Nobody Knows where there is a arco line playing the root notes of the chord progression over the top of the other bass, which is walking. Makes for a cool sound. Not sure if Mingus is doing the walking, the arco, both or neither (maybe he's just wailing on the piano!)

Slam Stewart and Major Holley did a CD titled "Shut Yo Mouth" with piano and drums. Both of these guys are master bass players, have different Arco/Scat solo styles, and are funny as hell. This is one of my favorite "BASS in your face" CDs and a great blue day disc, when you hear it you can't help but smile. If you say these guys don't swing you better get your headgear checked, it may be empty.

[Edited by bassbrad on 12-12-2000 at 06:07 PM]

Slam, Major Holley, Mraz, and several others, of course, but I hear the most artistry from McBride and Lynn Seaton. Michael Moore can bow some wicked solos, too. Rufus Reid also. Man, I just don't how you can overlook all the great jazz arco going on.

[Edited by Don Higdon on 12-12-2000 at 07:54 PM]

Thanks for all the suggestions. For me, they have the more value the more specific they are. Often it's difficult to find a bowed bass solo if there's only a single one on a CD (say on one of the last tracks).

So I would appreciate very much if you could give me hints as to particular tracks on particular CDs.

Any suggestions for McBride recordings apart from "SciFi"? I'm also very much interested in hearing Lynn Seaton, Michael Moore or George Mraz bowing.

Do you have particular recordings in mind?

Stefan

Once again Bob Gollihur comes through--check this out:
a great link from his website
http://classes.berklee.edu/dhollender/ArcoJazzDiscography.html

Thanks, double dad, for that link to David Hollenders discography (also thanks to Bob for collecting it, and, of course, to David for compiling all that information). This actually seems to answer far more than my initial question.

Two minor questions remain:

(1) Lynn Seaton does not appear in that list (which isn't, as David writes, meant to be complete). Any hint about a bowed solo by him?

(2) As to Arni Egilsson (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=9226), see the thread in the "Bassists" forum.

Stefan

Lynn Seaton has an album of his playing. All that information is home. I named him on the basis of what I've seen him do in person. Electrifying.
On most recordings, only one or two of the bass solos will be arco. You have to take what you can get.
An excellent recording for hearing the bass (McBride) is "These Are Soulful Days" by Benny Green on Blue Note. The group is piano, guitar (Russell Malone), and bass. No drums, so you hear everyone clearly. You won't believe how tight this trio is.
There is good Mraz, both pizz and arco on Zoot Sims - Soprano Sax, recorded on Pablo. Zoot and Lucky Thompson are my 2 favorite soprano players. I know, who asked me?

[Edited by Don Higdon on 12-14-2000 at 10:55 AM]

Only one person mentioned Michael Moore and I'd like to add that he studied with the great virtuoso Ludwig Striecher and has purity of tone to rival anyone. He plays arco on all his duo recordings with Gene Bertoncini and is an essential part of the collection of any bassist interested in arco in jazz and it's history.

And some lucky stiffs have Michael Moore as their teacher.
:D :D :D :D

richard davis did an album with elvin jones entitled "heavy sounds" there is some great bass playing on the one, and a mostly arco version of summertime played by just davis and jones, some great stuff on that one. i can't take it out of my cd player this week, for some reason.
andy

Originally posted by bootsaco
richard davis did an album with elvin jones entitled "heavy sounds" there is some great bass playing on the one, and a mostly arco version of summertime played by just davis and jones, some great stuff on that one


On the other hand, Davis' arco on Pat Martino's "Footprints" record sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard. Very disappointing! Just goes to show (a) everyone has an off-day and (b) if that one is a recording engineer, yer gonna pay for a long time!

While in Prague, I picked up local hero George Mraz's new solo album "Morava"... in additional to containing breathtakingly beautiful songs, Mraz's arco sound is really fat and pretty.

-a

george mraz is amazing. his sound and his melodies are beautiful.

I would like to ditto Charles Mingus.
Record: Town hall Concert

I lost a 14-year-old brother 7 years ago to a car accident. His name is Eric. Just last Friday I went to the ole record store looking for some Mingus. I picked up this album with no idea of it's existence and read the titles: So Long Eric $ Praying With Eric (only two) I just about fell to the floor.....it was my brothers birthday that day.
Great recording, really touched me...the acro is very nice...the intonation that doesn’t quite hit the mark is very hip when Mingus does it...

yeah man, mingus was way into it. the way i've heard him tell it, he played with miles a little and he took a solo with a bow. miles told him to quit that 'classical ****'...well, shortly after that miles hired paul chambers(someone who's known for taking bowed solos) miles was a little stubborn, but after some thought, i guess he figured out it could be cool.
andy

I agree on George Mraz and Harvie Swartz. The greatest for me is Paul Chambers. "Billy Boy" was the first arco thing I learned.

(How many good jazz violinists can you name? Grappelli, Ponty, Carter, Nance, Lockwood, Feldman...that's it for me!)

Mat Maneri, Billy Bang, Leroy Jenkins and Graham Clark are all great...

Wow, finally someone mentions Paul Chambers.. I would have listed him first. I have heard Slam and used to hang out with Major Holly. I also remember another bow/singer in NY but probably not recorder very much if at all, Dr. Lynn Christie. He was pretty good. Gave up medicine to play Bass. That was in the late 60s, early 70s. My son brought home a CD/book to learn for his Jazz Band Audition 2 years ago with Todd Coolman (spelling?) on Bass.... He was pretty good but was no PC.
There is one of Quincy Jones's Recordings with Major Holly, GillaMatari (spelling?)....This is Majors' first big showcase to the world from what I have seen. In the 70s, I used to watch Eddie Gomez with Bill Evans and he was doing alot of Bowed Solos then. Mainly his own style.. free, upper register mostly.. Very pretty sounding.. very inspiring....

Ofcourse when you mention Stanley, he is Bowing the Bowed parts, like Richard Davis on his early solo records. The hard thing to do is Bow the Pizz type solos.. That's REAL work......

Bowing while improvising solos in be-bop is harder IMO. Harder than playing classical and much harder than pizz solos.

Mat Maneri, Billy Bang, Leroy Jenkins and Graham Clark are all great...


Gotta add Florin Nicolescu to the great violinist list. Check out the s*** he does with Bireli Lagrene...yikes! He's the best right now, IMHO.

[QUOTE=KSB - Ken Smith]Wow, finally someone mentions Paul Chambers.. I would have listed him first. I have heard Slam and used to hang out with Major Holly. I also remember another bow/singer in NY but probably not recorder very much if at all, Dr. Lynn Christie. He was pretty good. Gave up medicine to play Bass. That was in the late 60s, early 70s. My son brought home a CD/book to learn for his Jazz Band Audition 2 years ago with Todd Coolman (spelling?) on Bass.... He was pretty good but was no PC.
QUOTE]

Check out Mr PC's stuff with Red Garland trio (Art Taylor on drums). Recordings like It's a Blue World, A Garland of Red, All Kinds of Weather (arco solo on Winter Wonderland!) etc. Also, Jim Stinnett has an excellent book on PC's bowings: Arcology Paul Chambers Solos Vol. 2-50 pages of arco bass solos!

Sorry... didn't realise the request for bass arcos recordings was so long ago. But I'll leave my post here for anybody looking for good jazz arco recordings.

Coincidentally I was listening to Red Garland with PC on the Album "Groovy" last night.

I haven't listened to it for a while and it was a pleasant reminder of what a great album it is.

I don't have it here with me, but there's some nice arco on it - I have "All Kinds of Weather" at home too; I'll revisit that tonight.

Much of PC's sound can be attributed to plain gut strings and black horsehair. Really it's amazing it sounds that good, because when improvising you not only have to get the
bow to the string with the note, you have to think about bow speed and pressure and measuring your stroke to be prepared for wherever you're going.


A lot has to do with gut strings, especially the timbre of the instrument, but not all of it . I lot has to do, I think, with the whole approach or attitude of the player to bowed solos. I've been lucky enough to see Butch Warren playing around town in Washington DC (yes, he's still playing, and no one in DC has a deeper groove -- as you'd expect from PC's replacement at Blue Note). Butch likes to play bowed solos, using a French bow, but played German style, on a craptastic bass, strung with steel strings, miles high above the fingerboard, using a crappy pick up going through a crappy amp. But shut your eyes and listen, and you'd swear you were back in the 50's, listening to the kind of swinging solos PC used to take (not quite as virtuosic, it is true, but Butch can sure play the blues). Like all great players, Butch transcends the instrument he has to play -- strings, etc. it doesn't matter. It's all in his soul.

My new bow, as mentioned in the Bows 'n' Rosin forum, has got me all excited about jazz arco - it's so much more satisfying to play than my old cheapo stick.

Anyway, I put together a little compilation CD with jazz arco tracks from my collection today - featured are:

Jimmy Blanton duets with Duke Ellington - Sophisticated Lady, Body and Soul, Mr. J.B. Blues. :)
Ray Brown - You Look Good To Me.
Paul Chambers - 2 tracks from "Groovy"
Aladar Pege - Manha de Carnival and Oleo (with Al DiMeola and Birelli Lagrene) :) :)

Thats all I had on hand at work to pick from, but the CD's almost full anyway. I'll be starting on "Jazz-Arco Vol. II" shortly :D

Slam's my all time favorite pound-for-pound bow player. His groove, his command and his musicality were incredible.....That live duet between him and Don Byas has to be one of the greatest things ever....

But I have an incredible bowed duet between Richard Davis and Freddie Hubbard called "Muses for Richard Davis." Big fat luscious tone.....tone for days.....

And anything with PC.

yeah man, mingus was way into it. the way i've heard him tell it, he played with miles a little and he took a solo with a bow. miles told him to quit that 'classical ****
Andy, Miles Davis was one of the worlds great PUT-ONS

...except I've read that Monk did exactly the same thing -- can't remember which bass player it was (the info's at home and I'm not.) The way the story's told in the Monk bio by Gourse, Monk was polite, even a little reluctant to ask, but told the bassist to "leave the bow alone." Monk objected to the classical sound and look. Funny, 'cause he certainly did listen to all kindsa stuff, lotsa classical, opera, etc.

You were part of that world, Paul, and I wasn't, but isn't it true that this type of musical prejudgement wasn't exactly uncommon on either side of the jazz/classical fence?

These days, it seems to me, minds seem a little more open.

...
You were part of that world, Paul, and I wasn't, but isn't it true that this type of musical prejudgement wasn't exactly uncommon on either side of the jazz/classical fence?
These days, it seems to me, minds seem a little more open.

You're a little late on that one I think Damon...during the be-bop era there was quite a bit of respect from one genre to the other......Now, of course i'm not quite that old, there was sometimes no love lost between some of those old moldy fig characters of the swing era and the classical cats. Guys like Eddie Condon. But, even then, all the classical pianists were goin' down to hear Art Tatum!
But yeah Damon, nothing like today!

But, even then, all the classical pianists were goin' down to hear Art Tatum!


My two favorite Horowitz/Tatum stories

1. Horowitz, on hearing a recording of Tatum playing, "That's impossible!"

2. Tatum, on hearing that Horowitz had played a transcription of a difficult solo of his, " He may know WHAT I played, but he doesn't know WHY I played it."

Taking the point in a slightly different direction, I've spent some time listening to Art Tatum. I can see why he scared piano players, no doubt. Personally, I'd rather listen to Monk -- or a good stride player -- any day.

Maybe Miles and Monk asked these cats to quiver the bow 'cause the bow just didn't make it...