I know this guy, I hear a lot of talk about him, I seen his picture, I now his signature Yamaha model, but I've just realized that I have never really heard him play.

Are there any fans out there that can tell me were I can hear him? maybe you can recomend me CD to buy or a place I can download a song or something... thanks

As you posted this in the Double Bass forum, I'm assuming that it's his Double Bass playing that you're interested in - in that case, get 'One More Angel' - it is, IMHO one of the finest acoustic jazz albums of the last 30 years - graet playing, great composing, and really moving.

For his electric playing, I'd suggest either his debut solo album (self titled), or 'Heart Of the Bass', which features a concerto for electric and upright bass - good stuff!

cheers

Steve
http://www.steve-lawson.co.uk

I also think, compared to some of his earlier solo albums, that "one more angel" shows immense growth and musicality. It was written after his wife's second miscarriage, hence the title, and it is a very introspective recording.I must also mention his work with Chick Corea's Acoustic Band is some of my favorite music as well.

I will second that about Chick Corea's Acoustic Band. Very fun, fluid music. Don't know if I have heard anything Patitucci has played on that I didn't like. He is very ...
smooth. (But not in that cheesy-crappy-kennyg-way).

John also plays on the Bass Day tapes, and has some very good instructional videos that address many different aspects of bass playing these are for bass guitar though.

Thanks for you replies, originaly I had intented this post to be in the Electric Bass section(I was wondering what DB was:-|, now I know)

Still it has been helpful, I heard about 15 seconds of african blue(pat. plays a double bass). I just wish there was someplace I could download something a little longer so that I can decide if I what to follow this guys school.. I mean, I find jaco stuff all over, solos etc...

I have 1 cd with him; "Scetchbook" and I like it. :) He´s a very good bassplayer... :)

anyway, buy his stuff! you won´t regret it. ;)

Yeah, I also have Scetchbook and I think he´s really cool, great bass player

Patitucci is best known for his electric playing rather than his acoustic, maybe because of the Chick Corea electric band, but I am sure that John recorded at least 4 times more albums on the upright than electric, and you should definetely check 'em out, he is a very progressive bassist and great composer, check out his album "Imprint", or maybe the Chick Corea "Time Warp" one of my favorites, there is a video available for that one, John's sound is really mature these days and his intonation is great, I think people tend to overlook his work a little bit as a Jazz Player, but he is absolutely one of the best.

He also puts in some stellar and extremely tasteful playing on Lynne Arriale's "A Long Road Home". The arrangements and production on that disc are also top notch.

John Patittucci is one the top jazz bassists in the world - his solos are clean, melodic, and to the point. He is a bassist who is truly a virtuoso on both the electric and double. Many bass players call themselves "jazz bassists" but in my opinion, most don't come close to John. He was one of my earliest influences, and I love this guy's music!

I play with John and I know he teaches at CUNY... you can probably look it up under their website.

Pick up John's record "Sketch Book." It contains alot of the different facets of his talent..... from electic to acoustic.

His acoustic bass solo song "Backwoods" on that album is truly beautilful.

He is a very gifted musician.

John Patittucci is one the top jazz bassists in the world - ..Many bass players call themselves "jazz bassists" but in my opinion, most don't come close to John.

Yeah, like those pikers Peter Washington, George Mraz, Michael Moore, Scott Colley, Drew Gress, Steve LaSpina, Anthony Cox, John Clayton, Christian McBride, Lindsey Horner, Jon Hebert, you know, guys like that.

Yeah, not to mention Nicki Parrot, Stanley Clarke, Ray Drummond, David Williams, and a host of others

Yeah, not to mention Nicki Parrot, Stanley Clarke, Ray Drummond, David Williams, and a host of others

Yeah, buncha poseurs.

ed, is bruce lindfield your mentor ? lol

Yeah, like those pikers Peter Washington, George Mraz, Michael Moore, Scott Colley, Drew Gress, Steve LaSpina, Anthony Cox, John Clayton, Christian McBride, Lindsey Horner, Jon Hebert, you know, guys like that.
Funny you should mention Scott Colley, Ed. I had a chance to see him play with Jim Hall and Lewis Nash at the Vanguard this past Sat. To say this was a quiet, low key gig would be an understatement. In many cases it seemed that Jim had has amp turned off, it was that quiet. Scott's playing was, in a word Supportive. Watching him watch and listen to Jim for every subtle nuance was perhaps the best lesson I could have in how a bassist should pay attention to what is going on around him/herself. Big ears, and yes, big eyes. Scott watched Jim's body language...to anticipate any "up the neck" moves Jim might be planning. That sorta thing. His level of intensity and microscopic focus is what impressed me the most.

Once more, I walked out of a club blown away by steller performance.

Oh, I dunno. I have just gotten so weary of hearing these pronouncements of sainthood for cats like JP or Brian (who are very good players) from folks whose entire range of exposure to the whole history of jazz bass is the record (or records) of the cat who they are canonizing.

"I've heard 3 jazz bass players and John Patitucci is the greatest bassist in the history of all time."

Yeah. Right.

Second on the kudos to Scott Colley. It seems like every other time I hear a record where the bassist isn't announced but sounds incredibly tasteful, it turns out to be Scott. I look forward to hearing him play live when I get the chance.

JP.... I can't believe that no one has mentioned
" Echoes of Jilly's "with Monty Alexander and Troy Davis.
It's a must for some serious DB Licks! :hyper:

In my humble opinion, I think some guys should be cautious about thinking guys like Pattitucci are the absolute top of the heap in bass players. You will end up missing a lot of important players, styles and concepts along the way. JP has facility on the DB most guys will never have, true, but 90% of the time you spend playing is spent swinging behind other players. Ask any GOOD, PROFESSIONAL non-bass playing musician what he/she digs in a bass player. The vast majority, if any, will NOT say they want blazing chops. Most will want good time, good feel, and good listening skills. JP is a great player, no question, but developing players would probably stand to learn more from guys like John Clayton and Christian Mcbride. In my opinion, they are more musical as well.

Honest question: have any of the folks (FOGHORN included) who keep trying to steer youngsters away from JP actually gotten out and heard JP play lately? I have, and can think of only good things to say about what I'm hearing, whether we're talking about soloing or simply the more traditional supporting role of the bassist. While I agree that no one player is the be-all-end-all of bassdom, my ears are telling me that there a damn good reason why folks like Wayne Shorter, Brian Blade, Chick Corea, etc. keep causing JP's phone to ring incessantly. :)

Honest question: have any of the folks (FOGHORN included) who keep trying to steer youngsters away from JP actually gotten out and heard JP play lately? I have, and can think of only good things to say about what I'm hearing, whether we're talking about soloing or simply the more traditional supporting role of the bassist. While I agree that no one player is the be-all-end-all of bassdom, my ears are telling me that there a damn good reason why folks like Wayne Shorter, Brian Blade, Chick Corea, etc. keep causing JP's phone to ring incessantly. :)

Point well taken Chris; No, I have not been listening to his latest stuff. But it is with the best of intentions that I said what I said. 10-15 years ago JP was all I would listen to. At the time, he was so far above my head there was very little I could gain from listening to him (you want me to transcribe that?!). Maybe a better way to make my point would have been to say make sure you listen to MANY players, and listen to players that make a good demonstration of the skills you need to aquire. If one can better understand the fundamental skills (see my last post) the other players on the bandstand (should) expect us to have by listening to JP, go for it. If one can transcribe his solos in a reasonable amount of time, and play along to his recordings, then he's probably the guy you should be listening to.

I gotta take exception to the "steering kids away from". All I been trying to do is open some ears to the breadth of what's actually out there. Like I said, 99.99999% of the time JP is the only upright player these cats have heard. I'm not saying don't listen, I'm not saying don't like all I am saying is-before you make the pronouncement that he is the best jazz bassist in the world, listen to a few more. period. Explore why Peter Washington is on 10 records to JP's 1, why Sonny Dallas has the baddest quarter note feel around, why so many singers call Neal Miner, why Wynton Marsalis is playing as a sideman with Ben Allison and on and on and on.

all I am saying is-before you make the pronouncement that he is the best jazz bassist in the world, listen to a few more. period. Explore why Peter Washington is on 10 records to JP's 1, why Sonny Dallas has the baddest quarter note feel around, why so many singers call Neal Miner... and on and on and on.


No argument there.


...why Wynton Marsalis is playing as a sideman with Ben Allison...



You just made my day. :D

I'm also not trying to steer anyone away from JP, just mentioning or agreeing with AQUA FU that there are other people to listen to. It's all in the spirit of keeping your ears open. It's cool if JP resonates with a person and the person expresses that, but to say he's the best of the best of the best...just indicates to me that the person hasn't really heard anyone.

when i was a whippersnapper ma pappy made me listen to Sam Jones, PC, Blanton...Jes so I could get me some edgejumacation about the bass players...It's nice to have those fellers as a point of reference when listening to a youngster like JP...

I think Tom Smothers was the first double bassist I'd ever heard. :hmm:

I think Tom Smothers was the first double bassist I'd ever heard. :hmm:

Dick is the bassist, Tommy plays guitar. I did some pit trios with the Brothers years ago; occasionally Dick likes to not play, so he can do schtick. They are very cool people. At the time, Tommy and I enjoyed a smoke or two out back ;)

Dick is the bassist, Tommy plays guitar. I did some pit trios with the Brothers years ago; occasionally Dick likes to not play, so he can do schtick. They are very cool people. At the time, Tommy and I enjoyed a smoke or two out back ;)
Thanks for correcting me on that. :o I was never sure if either were serious about their musicianship. They sure were funny though, and judging by the clips I see from those days, their comedy still holds up!

And Tommy swings one helluva yo-yo from what I understand.

Yup, it's part of the show. They are both adequate musicians, IMHO. Dick's from the folky, boomy bass camp. Tommy gets around the guitar pretty well. As arrangers, they're some of the best in the biz, and their timing is superb.

"I've heard 3 jazz bass players and John Patitucci is the greatest bassist in the history of all time."

Yeah. Right.

This is the reason why full-time pedal steel guitarists would complain that Jeff "Skunk" Baxter, of all people, won the Guitar Player Magazine annual vote for best pedal steel guitarist for years in a row in the seventies...

I've had the pleasure of last seeing and hearing John play with Wayne Shorter's group a couple of years back.
I've dug both his Upright and Electric playing equally.
The guy has grown as a solo musician, continually surrounding himself with top-notch talent on his recordings.
His growth as a leader in both his playing and writing is evident with every new recording.

This is the reason why full-time pedal steel guitarists would complain that Jeff "Skunk" Baxter, of all people, won the Guitar Player Magazine annual vote for best pedal steel guitarist for years in a row in the seventies...
Oh lord, that actually happened? Shades of the Playboy Jazz Poll...

I'm not going to say that JP is the best of the best or anything like that, but I attend City College where he teaches (I don't study with him though). The last year I have seen him in 2 facutly jazz concerts and 2 classical performances, it's amazing the respect he commands from his fellow musicians when performing. My point is this, it's easy to see why someone would be so impressed by his playing. He is a true musician always moving forward, chalenging himself he truly is one of todays masters.

Oh, I dunno. I have just gotten so weary of hearing these pronouncements of sainthood for cats like JP or Brian (who are very good players) from folks whose entire range of exposure to the whole history of jazz bass is the record (or records) of the cat who they are canonizing.

"I've heard 3 jazz bass players and John Patitucci is the greatest bassist in the history of all time."

Yeah. Right.


It's called an "opinion", which he's entitled too.

Sigh. Yes.
My opinion is that it is not a very well informed opinion.
Which I am entitled to.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with having an opinion…
















…it's just that some opinions are better than others!

;)

- Wil

…it's just that some opinions are better than others!

;)

- Wil

Which is a matter of opinion. ;)

My favorite work of Patitucci's is on the Lee Ritenauer album "Stolen Moments." Not only is it a great album of straight-ahead jazz, but everybody burns throughout, and Patitucci kicks ass on acoustic. His solos on this album should convince anyone of his credibility on acoustic.

John P is a damn good classical bassist as well... a new classsical bass CD by Jeremy McCoy (member of the met opera orchestra) has Jeremy and John playing bottesini bass duos... not an easy task I might add... I think the CD should be out soon.

"Footprints" from a GRP Allstar Bigband album was my first time hearing John Pattituci. I don't know if he played BG on that date? Then my wife bought me a copy of the Chick Corea Akoustic Band "Alive". Much DB goodness. JP's a favorite of mine too, but Sam Jones thumping Autumn Leaves is still does it for me as well.

I think John was one of or the first bass players I ever heard when I made the change from rock to jazz music.

I remember years ago I was trying to find some bass albums and I came across John's first album. The thing that caught my eye right away was his Ken Smith 6 string on the cover. I looked at it and wondered if that was a bass. I had never seen anything like that before.

I thought, "why not" and I bought the album and took it home.

I was totally blown away and still think of him as a very early influence of mine. He was the one I first heard use open strings to fill out the sound under a melody. That is something I still do quite and bit and have even written several tunes using that technique. He was also the first one I heard use chords and with those two techniques, really helped form the foundation of my playing style and composition.

I love the stuff he does with the Akoustic band on the album Alive. Some of the solos he does on there are just great! He also has some great time and feel. Very good and progressive.

Heart of the Bass is a truly great album. Though not a DB player, one of my favorite tunes is Mullagh. (sp?) Just solo DB at what I consider a remarkable pace and is a great composition.

The recordings are great, but one thing I truly appreciate about him is how into the music he gets. He closes his eyes, moves his whole body and smiles. He really feels what he plays. That's really cool and tells me he enjoys playing. That touches a chord with me.

I must admit I haven't kept up with him very much lately, but I'd like to change that.

I don't consider John a 'god' or 'saint' or anything like that. He just like all of us, human. He has taken time to learn and excel at what he loves to do. He is just one of many that we can lear from, assimilate and apply to our own styles.

.02
JB

Fans of JP note that his playing on the newer Wayne Shorter records and the Directions In Music CD seems more "restrained" or "refined" (depending on your viewpoint) than his older stuff e.g. Akoustic Band.

JP can still bring it! Check out half an hour of "old-style" Mr. Speedy playing in 2005 with Roy Haynes and Chick Corea. The stream, from Jazz at Lincoln Center, is Roy Haynes: Big Rhythm (http://www.jalc.org/radio/archive.asp).

The first half-hour is Roy's "Young Quartet." Marcus Strickland sound very nice on tenor and extremely sweet on soprano. It's an hour well-spent, even if part of it is spent with Ed Bradley.

I have to say, I'm not really a fan of JP's. The guy is a tremendous musician, but I have always found him a bit "polished", "mechanical" or, dare I say it, "soulless/sterile". The first time I heard/saw him on DB was the GRP all-star big-band video & he looked and sounded VERY uncomfortable. Since then, though, no-one can deny that he's quite seriously got it together on DB! I have to disagree with Chris about the Lynne Arriale stuff though. I find his walking lines/feel pretty insipid & his solos (though real nice!) feel kinda like "worked-out" etudes (interestingly enough, my wife said she found his vibrato quite irritating & contrived 'cos it reminded her of a classical bod who knew the piece inside out). I much prefer Jay Anderson in the trio. Guess it just depends on what you're looking for. Personally, I just like to hear more dynamic attack & expression/soul - but hey! That's just me.

I think he gets this type of press do the fact that he made his splash as a 5 stringer, who had solo chops, could do the funk slap bass thing and hold it down over different styles. And he was pretty young doing it, too. The Chick Corea akoustic, electric stuff was middle to late 80s, remember. You know like a guitar magazine God. If you throw in the fact they he can play excellent DB and keep up with most of the guys mentioned as prominent DB'ers, that's pretty damn impressive.

Obviously there are people that specialize in one particular style but to be able to be hired for any, well that impresses me. For example on the piano--guys like Larry Goldings, David Kikoski. They are capable of handling anything. How the f## they do it? I don't know. If someone were to say they were the best on that criteria (the ability to really cut in any setting and really make it cook). I'd say damn straight

In terms of evaluating his DB playing. I like his work on Joey Calderazzo' eponymous 2000 recording. I really dig his version of Bill's Time Remembered. JP's playing on the record is very loose, fluid and supportive. Tain Watts is playing drums

i think he has a great jazz conception on both instruments but i see him as a double bass player first and he's tried to use a similiar right hand pizz on the electric that doesn't work for me, he cant dig in, although his upright playing is fantastic. i think he does well to play a 6 string becuase he is more guitaristic on the electric bass, he's not some one i would study to learn how to groove or create a good touch, :hiding: having said that i'm sure thousands of great bass players have!

i think he has a great jazz conception on both instruments but i see him as a double bass player first and he's tried to use a similiar right hand pizz on the electric that doesn't work for me, he cant dig in, although his upright playing is fantastic. i think he does well to play a 6 string becuase he is more guitaristic on the electric bass, he's not some one i would study to learn how to groove or create a good touch, :hiding: having said that i'm sure thousands of great bass players have!

I'd have to disagree, JP knows groove and touch better than most. His grasp of time is frightening, I had the opportunity to take a rhythm section class with him, it was amazing the way he was able to coach a whole rhythm section (with both piano and guitar at times) to work together and create a groove.

I'd have to disagree, JP knows groove and touch better than most. His grasp of time is frightening, I had the opportunity to take a rhythm section class with him, it was amazing the way he was able to coach a whole rhythm section (with both piano and guitar at times) to work together and create a groove.
And I'm afraid I must disagree with the disagree! I really don't find JP much of a "groover" at all. As I've said before, I find his DB walking etc pretty insipid. He did some BG videos a while back (and the Bach Preludes - I think! - on 6-string BG will blow you away!) & there was a "groove dictionary" with Weckl at the end. IMHOP they all sounded pretty samey & "smoothed-out" to the point that there wasn't much groove left... But then that would make it a different kind of groove then, wouldn't it? Hmmm.

lets aggree to disagree, in fact i only need ask one question, is he going to be remembered in the same light as jaco, chambers, lafaro, mingus????? these guys didnt goto church thats for sure :D

Right, we can all agree to disagree. And this back-and-forth stuff can go on forever. I'm guessing that many years from now, Pattitucci will NOT be remembered in the same light as LaFaro, Jaco, Chambers, etc., though I'm a big fan of his.

For that matter, I know loads of bassists (the majority of whom are double bassists) who can't understand why Jaco is such a big deal. So, there you go.

Just listen (and learn) from those muscians who inspire you to move forward. Oftentimes, those musicians are not bassists at all.

It's all cool, I just stated my opinion. I don't want no flame war. You're the one who started back and forth and made the chruch comment. So I'll see you later!

there's nothing wrong with going to church or flying of in a big space ship with chick corea and tom cruise but i just think that patty is a bit of a square and that comes across in his playing, look at mingus, his character and then listen to him play upright, it's really important to listen to players that excite you (not sexually) , but for me i really don't get inspired by his music although i love his upright tecnique its fantastic!

I love that last post... as someone who grazed up against the L. Ron Hubbard experience back in college.

My great friend and master musician Shiro Mori said it just last night..."Music IS the religion". Amen, brother. I hope I never forget it.

I think nypiano's point about versatility is valid. But at this point... playing everything and covering all the bases is almost expected. So maybe JP isn't as unique as he was.

I think nypiano's point about versatility is valid. But at this point... playing everything and covering all the bases is almost expected. So maybe JP isn't as unique as he was.
How so? IMO, JP, along with Christian and very few others stands out as one of a very select few who double not only with proficiency, but with outstanding virtuosity.

There's no question that JP is not the be all and end all of bass in any way at all, but he has long since passed the point where anyone could spank him like a schoolgirl in terms of musicality or groove/supportive playing, n'est pas? The fact that he not only does this but also has such blazing chops on both DB and BG puts him in an entirely different class.

I'll pull out Ray Brown, Paul Chambers, Ron Carter, etc. records any day of the week before JP (just my tastes,) but JP very much is in an entirely different (not better or superior, just different) class. Actually, you know what TBeers, I think you're very much right. Nowadays it really is expected for professional bassists to cover EVERY base. Let's have a look --
John Pattituci
Christian McBride
Dave Holland
Brian Bromberg
Stanley Clarke
Mike Pope
Matt Garrison
That list is incomplete, yet still bigger than I imagined. There are plenty more (excellent) doublers around. I dunno, it just seems that every new (read: relatively young) bassist on the scene doubles. Hell, even Victor Wooten has a DB. Just kind of expected. Then again, if you can play DB with any degree of chops, I don't see how an electric's going to give you a run for your money...


EDIT: I say "new" relative to people that have been on the scene since the Beatles were kids in a garage.

I am not going to raise the thorny issue of serving two masters, so please don't misunderstand my point. I have noticed a rather disturbing tendency ( for the DB community)emerging over the past few years. Namely, it now seems possible to get work with only the barest grasp of the DB based solely on your caliber as a bass guitarist. :spit: I have observed this @ a local level in the UK & wondered if it was similarly prevalent in the US? It's ok to tell yourself that a leader who would hire "x" on shiny new DB & tolerate the god-awful racket they make is probably not worth working with anyway - but there is also the financial consideration of losing work due to the situation. :mad:
I'm not claiming this situation fits anyone in the list mentioned above. Although, having mentioned JP's uncomfortable look & sound on a GRP big band vid in previous posts, I often wonder why an established D/bassist didn't get the call. I know I tend to be harder in judgement on doublers of BG origin - what do you guys think? :confused:

Awe come on JD - Patti is a top doulbe bassist whichever way you cut it - certainly as far as technique. Whether he is a seminal figure - oh well, despite it all maybe not.

What it all points to is that IMHO, the biggest difference between DB focussed players and BG focuessed players is conception of how a bass line should be played and what the bass should sound like and at what volume - the level of support and intervention it makes in the ensemble and again IMHO is mainly responsible for a lot of BG players hopping onto DB, getting a real player-freindly DB set-up and flying all over the fingerboard and then wondering why we don't like them much and putting it down to sour grapes and jealousy on our part.

Yeah it does say al lot about the guys doing the hiring and begs the question would you work with these guys but in my limited and humble experience people just book the guys they know and like personally - when it comes to cash gigs (as oposed to gigs for arts sake) music is a often a secondary consideration? Perhpas we are more mercenary this side of the pond?

Before you all pile in in indignation I have many examples in mind - my experience may not be general YMMV etc etc.

Good points man - especially about the volume! I know what you mean about the "mates for cash gigs" thing but the worrying aspect of the trend is that it has spilled over onto other gigs as well. I have a theory. Whilst some BG'ers do exactly what you said, most in my experience are very weak & uncomfortable on DB. I think the latter players are well suited to leaders who just want a subservient noise in the background - either out of ignorance or to keep the spotlight on themselves. What you reckon?
The other side of this situation is that a "media-friendly" BG'er - eg played in a pop band or whatever - is often seen leaning on a DB in a jazz, folk, rock or whatever setting & therefore depriving a good deal many able, talented DB'rs of work (the situation isn't confined to the bass, either).
This may sound a bit like sour grapes, but I'm sure we've all tasted this particular variety @ one point. I'd rather call it pride in my instrument.

I'm not sure what you guys are quibbling about, but lemme just throw in my .02 - You don't get chosen to play with Roy Haynes, Wayne Shorter, Michael Brecker, Chick Corea, etc. because you came over from BG, with a "player-friendly" setup so you can flash your chops. I don't know or care which instrument he started on, but John Patitucci gets the call to play with those artists because he has a deep, deep deep understanding of music - all apects, great ears, the ability to play what's right at any given time, a strong concept of sound for his instrument, great solo and supportive abilities. I'll say that it's only my opinion, but the fact that my opinion is shared by the aforementioned bandleaders should give it some credibility.

I just learned of a trio record John did with Hank Jones and Jack DeJohnette that is said to be really swingin'. No doubt.

I'm not sure what you guys are quibbling about, but lemme just throw in my .02 - You don't get chosen to play with Roy Haynes, Wayne Shorter, Michael Brecker, Chick Corea, etc. because you came over from BG, with a "player-friendly" setup so you can flash your chops. I don't know or care which instrument he started on, but John Patitucci gets the call to play with those artists because he has a deep, deep deep understanding of music - all apects, great ears, the ability to play what's right at any given time, a strong concept of sound for his instrument, great solo and supportive abilities. I'll say that it's only my opinion, but the fact that my opinion is shared by the aforementioned bandleaders should give it some credibility.

I just learned of a trio record John did with Hank Jones and Jack DeJohnette that is said to be really swingin'. No doubt.

AMEN!

I agree with what Patrick said and would like to add something. There seem to be many comments made about players that are not based on fact. I said what I said about JP being an excellent teacher based on the fact that I've spent time studying with him and know several others who have. Also the comment about player friendly set-up, did you play JP's bass? Where does this comment come from? I just think it's irresponsible to make comments that can be mistaken as fact based on opinion.

Just so you know JP isn't the first DB player I had heard in my life, it was Charles Mingus who to this day is still my favorite bassist and a major influence to me.

Good points man - especially about the volume! I know what you mean about the "mates for cash gigs" thing but the worrying aspect of the trend is that it has spilled over onto other gigs as well. I have a theory. Whilst some BG'ers do exactly what you said, most in my experience are very weak & uncomfortable on DB. I think the latter players are well suited to leaders who just want a subservient noise in the background - either out of ignorance or to keep the spotlight on themselves. What you reckon?
The other side of this situation is that a "media-friendly" BG'er - eg played in a pop band or whatever - is often seen leaning on a DB in a jazz, folk, rock or whatever setting & therefore depriving a good deal many able, talented DB'rs of work (the situation isn't confined to the bass, either).
This may sound a bit like sour grapes, but I'm sure we've all tasted this particular variety @ one point. I'd rather call it pride in my instrument.

God forbid someone could start on BG and actually become a better DB'er than someone who's played it the whole time, let alone than the apparent jobless hordes you describe. That said, if you can't get the gig, then don't bitch, moan, and blame it on that "confounded new-fangled Fender bass those snot nosed kids are playin' these days." Not saying that's what you're doing, of course. Hell, then again, maybe if Patitucci wasn't around, you could join up with Shorter or Chick.

Guys, guys, guys! Will you at least read the goddamn posts properly before going off on one :spit: . The discussion had kind of shifted to doublers in general - AT NO POINT WERE SPECIFIC REFERENCES MADE TO JP IN TERMS OF HIS SETUP ET AL, NOR DISPARAGING REMARKS MADE ABOUT THE GUYS THAT HIRE HIM :rollno: . I mentioned a vid from around 15 yrs ago - and clearly stated the incredible difference in JP as a d/bassist since then. I have also stated that I think the guy is a tremendous musician, but have offered my own opinions as why he is not one of my favourite players. I'll check out the Hank Jones CD - maybe my opinion will change. Cool if it does, cos I'll have another cat to listen to. :)
Respect to all :D
Jay

Go to http://www.amazon.com and listen to sound samples from his CD's. I also like http://www.bn.com.

Joe

God forbid someone could start on BG and actually become a better DB'er than someone who's played it the whole time, let alone than the apparent jobless hordes you describe. That said, if you can't get the gig, then don't bitch, moan, and blame it on that "confounded new-fangled Fender bass those snot nosed kids are playin' these days." Not saying that's what you're doing, of course. Hell, then again, maybe if Patitucci wasn't around, you could join up with Shorter or Chick.
Just to set the record straight, Aaron: "God" doesn't forbid what you just stated. I started out on BG & have switched completely to DB. And yes, I do play a whole lot better than a lot of folk who played it the whole time - but there's always bigger fish. It's the natural order. Anyway, that wasn't the point I was making. As for "bitching & moaning" about DB dilletantes (spell-check anyone?) poaching work from established professionals? It probably isn't something you have come across or perhaps even noticed at your stage of development. If you carry on with the journey & you take pride in your instrument, you will. It might even p*ss you off a little - especially if you have a mortgage & kids etc & you know other guys in the same boat. Lastly, have I missed something? Last I knew it was Avishai Cohen who had the Chick Corea gig.

As for "bitching & moaning" about DB dilletantes (spell-check anyone?) poaching work from established professionals? It probably isn't something you have come across or perhaps even noticed at your stage of development.
Oh, sod off, will ya? Cut the condescension. Gigs go where they go. They go where they go even if you "deserve" the gig, even if you "merit" the gig, even if you have "deeper need' for the gig.

Originally posted by jaydbass:
Last I knew it was Avishai Cohen who had the Chick Corea gig.

I think it's John Benitez now, but JP became known as Chick Corea's bassist in both the Electric and Akoustic groups.

I think it's John Benitez now, but JP became known as Chick Corea's bassist in both the Electric and Akoustic groups.
John Benitez is an absolute mofo. He's like this humongous teddy bear, but he plays his ass off. One of the few players I've ever seen where the upright bass looks like a toy in his gargantuan hands. I spent a few days with his son Francis, too. A good drummer...

Sorry for off-topic, I just got excited. That's the first I've heard of Benitez in this neck of the woods.

As for "bitching & moaning" about DB dilletantes (spell-check anyone?) poaching work from established professionals? It probably isn't something you have come across or perhaps even noticed at your stage of development. If you carry on with the journey & you take pride in your instrument, you will. It might even p*ss you off a little - especially if you have a mortgage & kids etc & you know other guys in the same boat.

As one of these dilattantes coming from the piano, I have been subject to some of the bitching and moaning you speak of. In the beginning, I let it bother me a little, and I even felt a little guilty about it for a minute. Then one day my wife pointed out that I wasn't doing anything wrong by answering the phone, and anybody who said that I was was badly in need of some fresher grapes and some perspective. Best advice I ever got.

My feeling is that gigs may not always go to the best player, but they do tend to go to the person the bandleader feels will do the best job. In the end, as far as the bandleader is concerned, this second person is the "better player" after all, what?

Oh, sod off, will ya? Cut the condescension. Gigs go where they go. They go where they go even if you "deserve" the gig, even if you "merit" the gig, even if you have "deeper need' for the gig.
Calm it down Sam. Condescension? Yes,perhaps I should have been a bit more "touchy-feely" about the way I posted - I was simply responding to the tone of Aaron's post. You are of course 110 % right - gigs always have & always will go where they go. I accepted this a long time ago. We all have to. All I have done is chuck in 2p's worth to a discussion about alleged doublers - ie folks that get hold of a DB with no clear commitment to the instrument other than a quick buck or to improve their kudos with people who don't know any better. Don't make the mistake of thinking that a posts it takes approx 30secs to read are the be-all & end-all of an individuals makeup.

Chris, re above. "All I have done is chuck in 2p's worth to a discussion about alleged doublers - ie folks that get hold of a DB with no clear commitment to the instrument other than a quick buck or to improve their kudos with people who don't know any better..." From what I have heard, this certainly isn't a category you would fall into. If there were folks that thought that, surely you have proved them wrong & their opinions have changed? As far as the bandleader thing is concerned, I reckon you've summed up nicely what was discussed earlier in the thread. Ie if the leader is happy with what they've booked, leave them to it. They've got what they deserve! PM sent

Ya know, one thing that seems to be getting overlooked here is how John fits into the evolution of the bass...especially electric. In 1985 there was Jaco...and there others...but by and large Jaco was the "deal" in the bass world then. There were guys like Stu Hamm and Jeff Berlin around...Gary Willis was around, but it felt a lot to me like there was a Jaco "school" and a Stanley "school". When Patitucci arrived he made a concerted and conscious effort to be unique and he did it without sounding "Avante Garde". He didn't need any justification for his approach. It was clear when you heard him that this was some serious sh1t and anyone who argued with it outside the boundaries of personal taste was just "sour graping" it.

I know John well. We've been friends for nearly 20 years now. In fact, it was mostly his recommendation that got me the Chick elektric band tour I did. I can tell you without any fear of being wrong that he undeniably deserves every accolade and gig ever given him. He is a musician of the HIGHEST level, transcending the bass entirely. If you ever find yourself in his shoes (I have) you'll realize that what he does and did is nothing short of brilliant. When you take into consideration that when he STARTED doing it, he didn't have a role model, it's staggaring. He is a true innovator. He really broke new ground on the electric bass, and he is as committed to the acoustic as any "legit" player. He spends hours a day working on the bow...reigning in his intonation...developing his sound which is HUGE. He uses orchestral guage strings and the are plenty high. Way higher than most. He's not one of these guys who sets his acoustic up like a glorified fretless electric. I don't know anyone who really has any business saying anything negative about him as a musician or bassist. The few people who HAVE earned the right to dis him are the few who know best that he doesn't deserve it. My $0.02.
-Mike Pope

That's gotta be the perfect post to end this thread on! JP has always been a terrifying & unique electric bassist - and his commitment to & abilities on double bass never in doubt. David Gage often speaks about JP's setup & erudite, practical knowledge of the entire bass tradition. Thomas Martin has also waxed lyrical about his "sometime student". I mean, let's be honest, I've lost count of the occaisions I've heard him sitting comfortably in the midst of music probably beyond most of us. Nevertheless, there are still the "boundaries of personal taste" to consider, and he has never been one of my faves on either bass (a deeply held opinion). That may change or it may not, but it's no reflection on the abilies of one of the finest musicians in contemporary music. :)

I recently found my password for the All Music Guide and finally got off my arse to go check out some Patitucci solo samples. GREAT playing, and while it's not what I look for in my own tone, I do really like his sound. Also, the composition on his latest album called "Love Eternal" -- beautiful. I think this, more than anything, illustrates what it means to be a musician, not a bassist. His wife's quite a cellist, too -- what a sound!

*sigh* I might have to forgoe ordering that Carter/Hall duet for another few weeks while I order Songs, Stories, an Spirituals.

I bought a few tracks on iTunes from Eldar Djangirov's album, and Patitucci plays on that.

His sound is wonderful. He doesn't sound like an electric player at all.

We all have our heroes, and that's a good thing. If you're passionate about any great player and take time to study what he is doing, then you are learning something from his music. We all go through phases. I used to listen constantly to Ray Brown because he is so wonderful, but I discovered through listening to other players, Charlie Hayden, in particular that beautiful lines and melodies are what I enjoy playing so I tend to listen to
those players a little more lately. Peter Washington's playing on Andy Bey's
Tuesdays in China Town blew me away so I listen to him every chance I get
because it inspires me to at least try and play more musically.
John Patittuci is among that elite group of players as well, in my particular case I could practice the rest of my life 12 hours a day and never
be able to approach what he can do. I gravitate toward players where I can
emulate their styles a little, and learn something in the process. We, as a community of players are fortunate to have such a wide variety of master
bassists to get our inspiration from. I kind of look at it from the dining out perspective. Since I only get to go out to dinner a couple times a month
we usually end up at one of our favorite hangs, but if someone who's opinion I value recommends a new place then I'll go and check it out because variety is "the spice of life" and their can be such a thing as
"to much of a good thing"

Ric

I know John well. We've been friends for nearly 20 years now. In fact, it was mostly his recommendation that got me the Chick elektric band tour I did. I can tell you without any fear of being wrong that he undeniably deserves every accolade and gig ever given him. He is a musician of the HIGHEST level, transcending the bass entirely. If you ever find yourself in his shoes (I have) you'll realize that what he does and did is nothing short of brilliant. When you take into consideration that when he STARTED doing it, he didn't have a role model, it's staggaring. He is a true innovator. He really broke new ground on the electric bass, and he is as committed to the acoustic as any "legit" player. He spends hours a day working on the bow...reigning in his intonation...developing his sound which is HUGE. He uses orchestral guage strings and the are plenty high. Way higher than most. He's not one of these guys who sets his acoustic up like a glorified fretless electric. I don't know anyone who really has any business saying anything negative about him as a musician or bassist. The few people who HAVE earned the right to dis him are the few who know best that he doesn't deserve it. My $0.02.
-Mike Pope

Mike, people like who they like and don't like who they don't like. The issue is whether or not the artist is communicating something to you and no artist is going to communicate something to everyone. I don't think anyone is saying that John isn't good, obviously he is, they're just saying they're not really all that into him, which to me is okay, because you don't even have to be a musician to like or dislike something, you just do or don't.

I don't know what you mean by John not having a role model when he "STARTED" doing it. What is the it? To me the Chick Corea Electric Band, sort of continues in the same territory as RTF.

Hey Phil,
I'm not trying to say that John should be liked by everyone. I don't feel that way about anyone. However, I do strongly feel like he deserves more respect than he gets. I agree with you that the CCEB was a logical continuation of RTF. But to say that Frank Gambale is an extension of Al DiMeola or Dave Weckl is an extension of Lenny White is ludicrous. I think the same is true of the comparison of Patitucci to Stanley Clarke. Stanley had amazing facility and a lot of heart. But the content of what John plays is in another league. If John doesn't make you feel the way Stanley did I can respect that. But if you really understand jazz, it's clear that John is on a much higher level...and he approached the electric bass with a lyrical, guitaristic elegance that had never been attained before him, except by Jaco. Stanley may have inspired John to play the way he does...the way he did for every one. He was one of the first to prove that the electric bass could play a soloistic role. But the meat of what John plays comes directly from Michael Brecker and John Coltrane...no middle men involved there. And I can tell you for fact that Jaco was a totally seat of his pants soloist. He was really more about inspiration and interaction than anything else, and the people who played with him told me that. John played out of a Jaco sensibility in that he was an inspired player who musically follows his heart. But he sounds NOTHING like Jaco and he never did. That's why I say he had no role model. His sound was unique...and still is, actually...his style was also totally unique. This does NOT mean that ANYONE should like him. It only means that he should be RECOGNIZED as one of the significant contributors to the development of the electric bass as a modern viruostic instrument. Ask any acoustic jazz bassist about Jimmy Blanton and they'll start off by saying that he was one of the originals. One of the first GREAT acoustic bass solosits. Then they might say that they much prefer listening to NHOP. Fine with me...and probably everybody. If you look at Stanley's content it's all chromatic and pentatonic or a combinatiton of the two. John's lines are as melodic as any soloist on any instrument and his sound...especially on the first 3 CCEB records and his first 2 records...is unlike ANYONE'S. If you don't like it, that's TOTALLY cool, and I can't imagine why anyone would disagree with you. I just don't think people realize that players like him, or Victor Wooten, or Marcus Miller, or Chris McBride are just people who play what they feel. It's easy, in forums like this, to get carried away dis-ing guys you don't like. But the VAST majority of the people doing the dising don't really have a clue what someone like Patitucci has been through to be as good as he is. To say that you HATE him and find him contrived and uninspired is fine. But to say that he is insignificant, or mearly an extension of someone before him is naive and ignorant. Another $0.02.

Bravo, Mike! A passionate statement from one who knows.

Stanley had amazing facility and a lot of heart. . . . If you look at Stanley's content it's all chromatic and pentatonic or a combinatiton of the two.
I suspect I'm just a couple of years older than you. I began to play jazz bass around 1974, when Light as a Feather was a new record and and before Jaco showed up.

At that time -- before electric RTF -- there were two aspects of Stan's work on DB which totally spun peoples' heads. The first, obviously, was his tremendous facility as a DB soloist -- and yes, yes, yes, he certainly showed more "fire" than "intention" but that fire was so much brighter than just about anything seen to date. Equally important, though, was the revolutionary way Stan toyed with the beat playing double-time latin backup. At 19, Stan brewed a dose of Scott LaFaro and Elvin Jones and brought it single-handedly into the world of Joe Byrd and Keter Betts.

My point, to the modest extent that I have one, is this: Yes indeed, there are people who took what Stan did as a DB soloist and have run with it to places that he was not able to at the time. (The same is clearly true of his groundbreaking electric work.) JP is at the top of that list. But to this day, it is impossible to play a fast latin beat on plank OR on tub without either integrating or responding to what Stan layed down in 1973. THAT'S a legacy!

Oh well. Back on topic . . .

On like of love of JP: I originally dug his CCEB work because he was playing the eb like a jass guitarist in his solos; for some reason i found that stimulating- it seemed to me a logical extension of Jaco's work- with much refinement on John's part. I repsect his DB playing and find it to be not so over the top as his eb playing. Having said that he is not on the top of my list- because i have no list !

I think he is a great player and db neophytes should at least listen to him just to get a sense of his more understated playing- his supportive playing is wonderful and would teach many noobs how not to interfere with the rest of the band.

I think what keeps me from john is not his playing but the scenarios in which he has played. They are just not my cup of darjeeling...

Incredible post, Mike. That sums up John perfectly. A true visionary that paved the way for alot of bassists. Some think only Jaco but it's taken more than his contribution to make bass what it is today.

You might want to check out his work with Steve Khan - Got My Mental - where he also appears with Jack DeJohnette, Don Alias and others. Steve was back in the studio a few months ago with John P., Jack D., Manolo Badrena and others; so there'll be a new album out pretty soon.

You might find that brew to your taste.

Jim

... I think what keeps me from john is not his playing but the scenarios in which he has played. They are just not my cup of darjeeling...

JP is found streaming online from a recent Jazz at Lincoln Center (http://www.jalc.org/radio/archive.asp) show listed as "Terri Lyne Carrington Quartet." The band is TLC on drums, JP on double-bass (including some very sweet-sounding bowed work), Mulgrew Miller on piano, Gary Thomas on tenor (ALWAYS a treat) and guest Gregoire Maret on harmonica.

This is exactly the kind of current, adventurous, densely-composed melodic modern jazz music which some people criticize JALC for not paying any mind to. Mind, y'all, and enjoy!

I'm coming into this discussion kind of late, and haven't read every word in the thread, but I have to say, if someone hasn't already, that I love JP's playing on Danilo Perez' album Central Avenue, from 2003. Particularly on the track Blues for the Saints, I think he's brilliant. You could call the music on the album Latin Jazz, or Latin with a Middle Eastern flavor, but whatever you call it, it's beautiful.

You all have probably resolved the issue already, but I have trouble even calling one bassist "better" than another when you get to a certain level. Okay, there are many bassists that are better than I am; I can say that on an objective level because I'm really just a novice. But if you're going to compare, say, Peter Washington to Christian McBride, they both have important things to say and to contribute. They're just different. Maybe Peter doesn't play Jaco on upright. But I'd rather listen to and enjoy both than place one above the other.

Thanks to this post I picked "Mistura Fina" from my local public library... and returned it rapidly after listening to a couple of tracks. That type of production is very formated - a sorry tribute to Brasilian musicians IMHO. Guess I did not appraoch JP's broad versatility from the right angle... :hmm:

John appears on Steve Khan's new release "The Green Field", along with Steve, Jack DeJohnette, Manolo Badrena, and on several "latin" pieces percussionists Roberto Quintero and Ralph Irizarry. It is available through Amazon.com and elsewhere.

The CD has pieces by Ornette Coleman (Congeniality), Herbie Hancock (Riot), Thelonious Monk (Eronel), Gus Kahn - Nacio Herb Brown (You Stepped Out of a Dream), and Wayne Shorter (Sanctuary/Nefertiti), as well as four original compositions.

John's playing is great, and he gets lots of solo opportunities since there is no piano or horns. I always enjoy Steve Khan's music, and I think this is one of his best CDs, certainly the best with double bass, IMO. [Of course, I should have mentioned John exclusively plays double bass on this CD.]

Jim

I gotta take exception to the "steering kids away from". All I been trying to do is open some ears to the breadth of what's actually out there. Like I said, 99.99999% of the time JP is the only upright player these cats have heard. I'm not saying don't listen, I'm not saying don't like all I am saying is-before you make the pronouncement that he is the best jazz bassist in the world, listen to a few more. period. Explore why Peter Washington is on 10 records to JP's 1, why Sonny Dallas has the baddest quarter note feel around, why so many singers call Neal Miner, why Wynton Marsalis is playing as a sideman with Ben Allison and on and on and on.

why why whyner.... :p

Patitucci is really great. A big source of inspiration to me (Both double- and electric bass). I really love his album "Heart of the bass". But also ,as someone mentioned earlier, "One more angel". If you're a fan of bebop then you may want to listen to his album "Now".

JP just finished up at the Jazz Standard with both the 8 piece Latin band and Ed Simon's trio. Considering the horns, 6 string guitar, quatro, percussion, etc., JP got a lot of solo time in every tune with the big band. No matter if the sound called for arco, pizz, upper (upper!) register, JP was THERE with chops to spare. It's always great to see a hot set, where every musician is obviously paying close attention to what's going on around them, and John is usually quite demonstrative no matter if he misses some notes or nails each one. He really, NEVER stops playing, and I mean that in the best way. No overplaying, just loads of ideas about where notes can fit in the most tastefull way. In the Latin genre, I believe he gets my vote for one of the top jazzers to get into this. Edward Simon, to me, sounds like what Bill Evans might have sounded like if he grew up in Venezuela. You can't miss with that combination! :smug:

Man, John is a fantastic player. He knows the bass inside and out, technique, time, harmony, melody, the bass' role in the music. He is a fantastic teacher and great person too. I saw him with Ed's trio on the last night I will also see him playing classically (which I have seen four times already) at the end of this month, he is a true artist and musician.

Just my opinion.

I just saw John with Wayne Shorters group. Wow that was interesting, it wasn't what I was expecting at all. He was amazing (as usual), but they played super avant-gaurd music. I mean, I listen to some pretty out there stuff, but then there was this stuff! Great playing, great musicians, and great orginal music, I'm still processing it. I'm not sure I will ever comprehend what actually happened... heh

John did a great example of double bass in a pop context.... on an album by the band Jellyfish, a few years ago. The tune is called "Bedspring Kiss". Check it out, it's pretty damn cool.

I just saw John with Wayne Shorters group. Wow that was interesting, it wasn't what I was expecting at all. He was amazing (as usual), but they played super avant-gaurd music. I mean, I listen to some pretty out there stuff, but then there was this stuff! Great playing, great musicians, and great orginal music, I'm still processing it. I'm not sure I will ever comprehend what actually happened... heh

I saw them play live and have the albums - it's not that far out - it's acoustic Jazz - people have been doing this kind of thing for about 30 years and Wayne was playing similar stuff with the Miles "2nd Great Quintet" - listen to "Live at the Plugged Nickel" from 1965...

In fact some of that stuff sounds far more dissonant and "wild" than anything I heard Wayne do with his latest quartet!! :hmm:

Not that that makes it better or worse - I think the interplay between Wayne and John Patitucci in this latest group is stunning and I really like the restraint they show - even though they are improvising freely. :)

I think it's great that not all "Free" (ish) Jazz is squawking and overblowing! ;)

It can be Free and Beautiful! :)

I saw them play live and have the albums - it's not that far out - it's acoustic Jazz - people have been doing this kind of thing for about 30 years and Wayne was playing similar stuff with the Miles "2nd Great Quintet" - listen to "Live at the Plugged Nickel" from 1965...

In fact some of that stuff sounds far more dissonant and "wild" than anything I heard Wayne do with his latest quartet!! :hmm:

Not that that makes it better or worse - I think the interplay between Wayne and John Patitucci in this latest group is stunning and I really like the restraint they show - even though they are improvising freely. :)

I think it's great that not all "Free" (ish) Jazz is squawking and overblowing! ;)

It can be Free and Beautiful! :)
I dunno, I saw 'em last night and it definitely seemed more "out" than the 60's Miles Quintet stuff I've heard. I loved it, but I'm STILL coming to my senses now -- I've been busy since I woke up this morning (2.5 hour train home, work a full shift, etc.) so for the past couple hours I've been vegging and trying to sort out what the hell happened last night.

Free and beautiful indeed :D.

I dunno, I saw 'em last night and it definitely seemed more "out" than the 60's Miles Quintet stuff I've heard... .

But have you heard that quintet live - they were much more 'tame' in their studio abums!!

"Plugged Nickel" is really wild and there are points where I have no idea how they got back together - whereas with Wayne's current quartet it's a more organic progression and I always feel they know exactly what they're doing and are listening carefully.

I've only heard a track or two from the Plugged Nickel album. It didn't get too crazy, but knowing how they played together, I can imagine they very much do get pretty whacked.

I always feel they know exactly what they're doing and are listening carefully.I definitely got that too. They're all very intensely *aware* of what's happening.

I saw that Detroit gig last night, too, and it was amazing, though the sound quality in the balcony was abysmal. I"m listening to their live album Beyond the Sound Barrier now, and it's very close to what they played in concert.

I don't recall any Plugged Nickel sounding anything like this free. That said, this isn't "a brand new sound" or anything, but it is unusual to see in concert nowadays. The virtuosity and telepathy of the entire rhythm section was unbelievable.

Detroiters, you know anything the busetto-style bass Patitucci was playing?

I bought Beyond the... during the intermission of the concert. I agree that it's pretty close to what they played in concert (probably because it's a live album) but nothing on the CD even comes close to how they played Joy Ryder in Toronto. They only ended up doing about 4 tunes in the entire set, I guess, and Joy Ryder was the last. They absolutely killed on this tune. I thought Patitucci's head was going to split in two the way he was grinning.

has anyone published any transcriptions of his upright stuff? i kind of dig the chromatic stuff and the 4th stuff he does.... ( i know i know, transcribe it myself... i just dont want to put that much effort into learning his stuff, but if someone were to set it in front of me, well then i'd just have to read it......)

I just want to say that John is amazing in the studio... he works harder than almost anyone. So inspirational. He always has good positive comments to make to any instrumentalist. I know of no one else that can play equally well in both the jazz and classical worlds. just did a new album by Carlos Cuevas called Uninhibited Realm. John and Jimmy Branly are playing. Cool thing using a chamber orchestra.

They only ended up doing about 4 tunes in the entire set, I guess, and Joy Ryder was the last. They absolutely killed on this tune. I thought Patitucci's head was going to split in two the way he was grinning.

I like that tune, the head's just like a sketch for unexplored territories. Especially when these guys do it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=je0qtdZNuSc