1939 Kay Bass Help Needed

luvdabass · #1 09-02-2010, 06:33 PM

Hello Fellow Bass Players,

I have a buddy who is looking to sell me his 1939 Kay Bass. The question I have is how much is this bass worth? I know that is a tricky question so I have gathered as much information in order to hopefully get a good idea on the existing value of this instrument.

First of all the good news. It is all there. There are no holes or major cracks (a few minor ones) in the bass. This bass has been kept in a high school, so I can only imagine that it was not exactly an optimal lifestyle for it.

Here is a page with all the photos I took to help convey the current state the bass is in:

Now I will start with the issues as I see them from the top down. The tuning pegs all work fine, but as you will see in this photo

one of the pegs is all taped up. The head of it seems to be intact with no major issues. There is a slight separation that is forming between the fingerboard and the neck. I was able to see some light coming through the top inch and a half in this area.
The fingerboard has a few dips in it, but overall seems to be in decent condition. I don't know if it could just be sanded down or if it needs a full replacement. The strings are dead and need to be replaced.

The neck is a bit of a concern. I can tell that it has been removed and re-glued at some point, and I believe I would need a luthier to get in there and re-set the neck. There were no noticeable cracks in the neck otherwise.

This is a poor photo, but it should illustrate the next problem point.

There is a gap between the back of the bass and the bottom of the neck connection. Otherwise the back looks good aside from a few scratches.

The sides of the belly and back are completely worn down where they sit on the ground on either side of the ribs. Hopefully this can be seen in this photo

The ribs seem to be quite worn as well between these areas. Could this be reinforced with some of those black rubber sidebar things I have seen on other double basses?

Now the belly. The belly of the bass seems to be in decent shape. It is sitting up off of the ribs at this point

but my hope is that with a good luthier re-setting the belly then the problem would be solved.

The bridge has been sitting at an obtuse angle for some time so it is a bit warped and I think would need to be replaced. Also, the action of the strings are much higher than I like to play. If I replace the bridge and fingerboard would this be something that I could have set up to a lower setting without buzz or dead notes?

The endpin is rusted shut and would need to be replaced.

Then there is this odd blemish where it seems to have had some treatment before. I am not sure what it is though.

The good aspect of the bass is that all the pieces are there, but I feel like it needs to be completely taken apart and then put back together by a professional.

So, for those of you in the know, with the condition the bass is in right now, what is it worth?

My guesstimate is that it needs about $2500 worth of new parts and labor to get it up to steam. Is that about right?

If I were to completely restore it and reinforce the sides where it is worn, what would you estimate the value to be then?

Thank you for your time in reviewing this bass and any input is welcome

-LuvDaBass

StyleOverShow · #2 09-02-2010, 06:50 PM

My guess is the bass by itself is worth somewhere around $2,500. I'm looking at a 50's model for about the money but it is in working shape.

Why don't you run it out to ye locale luthier and have them appraise it and estimate the repairs.

Phil Rowan · #3 09-02-2010, 07:56 PM

You sure that's not a King Mortone? (or am I seeing things?)

ASBass · #4 09-02-2010, 08:01 PM

That's no Kay.... that's a King (with a 50's style Kay tailpiece). Aside from the obvious flaws. it's a beauty and well worth restoring! I wouldn't bother at all with the cosmetic stuff. The wear and tear just adds character if you ask me. The structural stuff is another matter.

Tim Skaggs · #5 09-02-2010, 08:32 PM

Definitely not a Kay. The neck heel and slope of the back plate at the button indicates King, with the most obvious "King Mortone" engraved on the tuner plate. I'd guess it to be a 50's, but sure can't tell from here. King basses have the very small neck heel and a fairly small dovetail. They've been known to have issues with the neck block splitting/cracking. They can be wonderful; both playability and tone. I have a friend with a '54 that is fantastic, but it's had the neck and neck block replaced. I'd try to own it if I were in your shoes.

luvdabass · #6 09-02-2010, 11:57 PM

Well thank you all for the input so far. You will have to forgive my ignorance in previously calling this a Kay bass as I am still learning about this bass. I assumed it was a Kay by the tailpiece. I also read on Kaybass.com that each Kay bass had the serial number hand written on the inside as well as two other stamps with the company logo. So, when I saw the hand written 992 and then the stamps on the inside I assumed it was a Kay. I also assumed that the H N White company's relationship with Kay was such that the stamp on the inside made it a Kay.

Alright, well then now that we have determined that this is a King, what do we have here? After doing some quick research on the H N White web page it looks to me like this is a bass from 1937. I still am trying to figure out if his asking price is worth it considering the amount of work I would have to put into it. Since it is a King and not a Kay, would the value previously mentioned by StyleOverShow of $2500 still be valid? I am planning on actually getting this into good condition and using it. Honestly right now with the condition it is in, I am having a tough time deciding. I like the fact that it is well aged and the scratches and ding do give it character, but it is not set up to how I like to play. I mentioned this in the first post, that I would like a lower action. Are these issues able to be resolved by a new fingerboard and possibly an adjustable bridge? Or does it have to do with the initial construction of the instrument?

As well, now that I have determined this to be a King and not a Kay, lets go back to my original question. What is the value of this bass judging by the photos and the description I have provided? Additionally, if I put the restoration work into it, how much would you guess I would be spending to get it to a gig ready instrument? Then, what would the value be after I did all the restoration work?

I cannot thank you all enough for taking the time to review all of this for me, as a working musician this is going to be a large investment for me if I choose to go for it. I just want to make sure that the numbers work out in the long run.

Andrew McGregor · #7 09-03-2010, 01:02 AM

If it can be made structurally sound, then there's no problem getting whatever string height you want, within reason, since that is just about nut, bridge and fingerboard. It may shift a bit for a year or two after a major restoration, but sorting that out is just routine maintenance. Of course, string heights have to be suitable for the strings you put on there as well, since some strings need a bit more room to allow wider vibrations.

I can't comment on values.

Jake deVilliers · #8 09-03-2010, 01:04 AM

What is the asking price on the bass?

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #9 09-03-2010, 05:54 AM

I have embedded the pics in the post to avoid the appearance of free advertising for the store. Carry on!

luvdabass · #10 09-03-2010, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I have embedded the pics in the post to avoid the appearance of free advertising for the store. Carry on!

Okay, well there are still quite a few important photos that people may need to review in order to determine the overall shape and value. Since this link is not allowed to be posted in the forum, if you would like to view the entire set of photos, please send me a private message and I will reply with the link. I know this sounds like a pain to click the few extra buttons, but I want to play by the rules. Is this offer okay Chris?

For those of you who do private message me about it I will get back to you quickly, so don't hesitate to ask.

luvdabass · #11 09-03-2010, 09:16 AM

I did not want to mention the asking price on the bass because I did not want to influence anyone's perception of the value. But, since there are not that many replies on the value like I would like to know I guess I will let it out. He currently has offered this bass to me for $2000 in the condition it is in. I think that I can talk him down a bit due to all the restoration work that is needed. My guess is that he would settle for $1500. At $1500 would I be getting a good deal or is that the going rate for what it is worth? What price is too high, and what price is an offer I cannot refuse?

ninepoundjammer · #12 09-03-2010, 09:30 AM

Um, I would factor in a replacement tuning gear. I would be concerned about the neck and any structural issues in the body and have a luthier check it out if I was unsure. But, I wouldn't worry a bit about the wear and blemishes on the sides. That's part of the character of a bass this age, and, heck, it looks to be structurally in better shape than my mid-90's Englehardt. I think the binding is really helping in that regard.

Maybe you don't really want a bass with so much character? If that's the case, move on. I wouldn't sink $2500 into it, if that's what it would really cost to make you happy.

E.P. Miller · #13 09-03-2010, 09:38 AM

That bass looks a lot like an old Mortone I used to own. String length issues aside, mine was a real cannon. A sophisticated set up tamed some of its unruly tone issues.

$2500 + $1500 brings you to $4000 invested which is at the very top end of the market for a Mortone in near perfect shape. The question is, would the bass be restored to that condition? Personally, my limit would be $500 for this bass and even then, it would be a labor of love.

"In matters of the heart, all advice notwithstanding."

luvdabass · #14 09-03-2010, 10:33 AM

Well, I think the main reason he is asking this price is because he thought it was a Kay. Once he hears that he does not have a Kay it may be that he will bring the price down. After hearing from you all here I think I have decided to let him sit on it for a while. He's not going to sell it at that asking price and in 6 months or so he may be willing to let it go for the $500 price just to get it out of his house. Thanks everyone.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #15 09-03-2010, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvdabass

Okay, well there are still quite a few important photos that people may need to review in order to determine the overall shape and value. Since this link is not allowed to be posted in the forum, if you would like to view the entire set of photos, please send me a private message and I will reply with the link. I know this sounds like a pain to click the few extra buttons, but I want to play by the rules. Is this offer okay Chris?

Yes, that's fine. When it comes to commercial issues, folks can be a little touchy. I think this solution is fine.

PaulKing · #16 09-04-2010, 02:28 PM

Sure he may revise his opinion of the value when he hears it's not a Kay. Possibly upwards.
Kings are not as well known, or popular as Kays. But to those in the know they are widely considered to have a more powerful tone, and consequently more desirable than a Kay of similar condition.

That said...
From the few pictures here this looks 1950s, not 1937.
Does it have purfling? Pre-war ones didn't, post war did.
Is there a loop in the purfling and a logo or transfer on the back, below the buton?
The finish looks more 1950s to me.

Value:
Good condition King Mortones, whatever the year can go for between $2-4,000 dollars. To me, early is better.
With the previous neck damage and general condition of this one I'd be aiming much closer to $1000. Looks like the neck may want re-setting... angle is a bit shallow.
It would be a complete bargain at $500. Depending on current playability, fair price at around £1000. Pricey at $1500. Too much at $2000.

Even respectfully resored (please don't refinish it...) and in perfect playing condition, I'd rate it around $2500-3000.

There you go, stuck my neck out. I've been watching the asking price of these (US and Europe) for a year or so now.

Jake deVilliers · #17 09-06-2010, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulKing

Sure he may revise his opinion of the value when he hears it's not a Kay. Possibly upwards.
Kings are not as well known, or popular as Kays. But to those in the know they are widely considered to have a more powerful tone, and consequently more desirable than a Kay of similar condition.

That said...
From the few pictures here this looks 1950s, not 1937.
Does it have purfling? Pre-war ones didn't, post war did.
Is there a loop in the purfling and a logo or transfer on the back, below the buton?
The finish looks more 1950s to me.

Value:
Good condition King Mortones, whatever the year can go for between $2-4,000 dollars. To me, early is better.
With the previous neck damage and general condition of this one I'd be aiming much closer to $1000. Looks like the neck may want re-setting... angle is a bit shallow.
It would be a complete bargain at $500. Depending on current playability, fair price at around £1000. Pricey at $1500. Too much at $2000.

Even respectfully resored (please don't refinish it...) and in perfect playing condition, I'd rate it around $2500-3000.

There you go, stuck my neck out. I've been watching the asking price of these (US and Europe) for a year or so now.

+1

I think this is a very accurate assessment of the situation.