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  #1  
Old 01-29-2009, 01:58 PM
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2 Questions (size & vintage)

When is a double bass considered "vintage".

As I have noticed on a website about the sizing of a Bass. It says 99 percent of all basses in the world are 3/4 size. Now if you look at the specific dimensions of the 3/4 size and the 4/4 size the 3/4 size is really not 1/4 size smaller in size. It is really just slightly smaller. With that being the case, how did the term 3/4th size get adopted as the proper term to identify this instrument? When in reality it is really not 25 percent smaller than a full size 4/4 double bass.

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  #2  
Old 01-29-2009, 02:05 PM
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I'm not sure, but if it were a matter of percentages, a 1/2 size bass would be a lot smaller than a cello.
  #3  
Old 01-29-2009, 07:24 PM
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It makes about as much sense as most musical terms being in Italian. It's just the way it is..
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  #4  
Old 01-29-2009, 07:35 PM
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Okay, first of all stop doing math, it's not going to work out that way. Or to quote Bull Durham, "don't think, Meat, just pitch. Thinking only hurts the team." Math is not your friend in this case.

If you're interested for historical research purposes, I can't help much, but if you're shopping, here's what you need to know. Don't try to make sense out of it, just accept that:

3/4 = "normal"
4/4 - Unusual, but not unheard of. I've never personally known anyone who played one, but they are, by reputation, difficult to play in tune and who wants a BIGGER instrument to haul around. The chances of you even finding one is slim, so forget about them. They're bigfoot.
1/2 - For children or unusually small people. If you are a fairly normal sized person and want to be legit, don't look for them. Probably less uncommon than 4/4 basses, but because it can be good to learn on a smaller bass when you're young, they do exist. I've known some badass little chicks who played 3/4 sized basses like there was no tomorrow, though.

There are also 7/8ths and 5/8ths basses (it's okay to do a little bit of math right now), but don't get caught up worrying about what the signifagance of them is.

Now, here's the thing, there is no standard diminsions for these things, some are wider, some have sloped shoulders, some have deep ribs, whatever. They are as the person who made them planned for them to be. The sizes above are wildly inconsistent.

If you are a fairly normal sized person looking for a bass, consider the quality of the instrument and your budget. If you happen across 4/4 or 1/2 sized basses, WALK AWAY. Almost everything you see will be called a 3/4. If you happen to see something that someone calls a 5/8 or 7/8 or even if you're looking at a 3/4, consider how comfortable it is to you size wise. If you don't know how to hold it, get someone who does to help you. You want a comfortable instrument.

Second, if it is physically comfortable to your body, then what you really care about size wise is what we call "mensure", which means the length of the string from the nut to the bridge. If there is a standard and you are a stubborn American who refuses to recognize the metric system, like the rest of the world, it is about 42". Anything much shorter or much longer than that would give me pause. If it's 41" and I loved the bass and could afford it, I might not worry about it, but know that anytime you sit in on someone else's bass, you'll have to adjust or you'll likely play flat. It's always an adjustment to play someone else's bass anyway. My first teacher likened it to "driving someone else's car", you spend the whole time trying to figure out how to turn on the lights and turn off the windshield wipers. So, my thought has always been not to make that harder on myself by getting used to an odd mensure. If you plan on upgrading some day to a different bass, again, the closer to 42" that the bass you learn on is, the more likely that the next bass you pick up will be LESS unfamiliar to you.

Mensure sort of relates to the physical size of the instrument, kind of, but it's not exact. We've all seen anomolies.

If you read the recent thread we had with a kid who wants to get a bass some day and is worried about what wood the bridge should be made out of and stuff...this is not quite the same, but a reasonable question with a similar answer.

3/4 is "normal" - 41 1/2 - 42" of mensure is the 90th percentile. That's what you want unless you have some specific physical or musical needs to accomodate. There are much more important things to look for when shopping for a bass.

Vintage? I don't know. It's a term that people can substitute for "used" or it could mean something. Solid wood seems to "open up" sonically after 20 years or so. 200 year old basses can sound great, if they were well made to begin with and have been cared for or properly repaired.

If you're buying a 1998 Wilfer or something, I would consider it "used". Is it a nice instrument, can you afford it, does it meet your needs? I would expect the price to be something lower than a brand new Wilfer of the same model or general make. If it's from the 1940's and it's solid and playable, it likely apprecaited.

There has been plenty of "old vs new" debate. They're snowflakes, man. Get the right instrument for you and don't get caught up in needing an old one or wanting a new one. If you're looking for something to learn on, buy a good student bass from a reputable dealer with a good set up or private party and take it to a good luthier for a set up.

If you are looking for "your" bass that "speaks" to you. It will take a while and you'll have to play a lot of them before you find it, we all do.

Hope that helps.

2 more things:

If you want a 400$bass, as your moniker suggests, don't waste your time here. We can't and won't help you get one, we will only lecture you and try to talk you out of it. I'll start the lecture by saying, you'll be wasting $400 on an instrument that will never be what you want it to be and will not get you closer to whatever your musical goal may be. It will only frustrate you and if you insist on talking about it here, will only frustrate us.

If you want more help from us than this, you need to fill out a profile. We're a very helpful group if we know who we're talking to. We can be initially polite or harsh with people who we don't know anything about. I hope I came off as polite to you, I'm sharing some useful info here and it took a bit of time to type. If I didn't, however, my apologies.

Last edited by TroyK : 01-29-2009 at 07:45 PM.
  #5  
Old 01-29-2009, 07:46 PM
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Great post Troy! Can we get a mod to add it to the stickies? (even though I LOVE my 43" mensure!) You definitely hit the nail right on the head!
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  #6  
Old 01-29-2009, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txstatebass View Post
Great post Troy! Can we get a mod to add it to the stickies? (even though I LOVE my 43" mensure!) You definitely hit the nail right on the head!
Well now, that's your bass, with your sound then. And I'll bet you can play the crap out of it!

My general advice to someone shopping for a first bass is the same, though. Stay within maybe 1/2" +/- to 42". Once you know what you are doing and are looking for more subtle qualities in an instrument to settle down with for decades, then you can bend or break that rule if you want to. Or if you have some special needs.

EDIT: By the way, you and DALLASSTRINGS are making me homesick. Need to come down this summer to visit my family and swim in some warm water.

Last edited by TroyK : 01-29-2009 at 08:00 PM.
  #7  
Old 01-29-2009, 08:02 PM
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I read the subject and thought - yes it is old and it is big - but then I realized you were talking Bass.

Sorry I know tasteless and immature - but that is what happens in old age you regress to your childhood - lose all your hair your teeth and your common sense.

Great post Troy!
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  #8  
Old 01-29-2009, 08:23 PM
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Man you're a good writer!

That essay needs to be a Sticky called "Size Matters"
  #9  
Old 01-29-2009, 09:06 PM
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Now that's an answer TroyK
  #10  
Old 01-29-2009, 09:55 PM
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[quote=TroyK;6899866]Okay, first of all stop doing math, it's not going to work out that way. Or to quote Bull Durham, "don't think, Meat, just pitch. Thinking only hurts the team." Math is not your friend in this case. **** Gotcha (Math is not my forte")*****

If you're interested for historical research purposes, *****Well I am, but not the only reason I'm interested.*****

I can't help much, but if you're shopping, here's what you need to know. ***** I'm not really shopping for a bass but knowledge about the Bass****

Don't try to make sense out of it, just accept that:

3/4 = "normal" ***** Tis ******

4/4 - Unusual, but not unheard of. I've never personally known anyone who played one, but they are, by reputation, difficult to play in tune and who wants a BIGGER instrument to haul around. The chances of you even finding one is slim, so forget about them. They're bigfoot. ****** I'd like to play ole bigfoot just the kicks*****

1/2 - For children or unusually small people. If you are a fairly normal sized person and want to be legit, don't look for them. Probably less uncommon than 4/4 basses, but because it can be good to learn on a smaller bass when you're young, they do exist. I've known some badass little chicks who played 3/4 sized basses like there was no tomorrow, though.

There are also 7/8ths and 5/8ths basses (it's okay to do a little bit of math right now), but don't get caught up worrying about what the signifagance of them is. ***** was not aware of these latter two sizes, interesting.*****

Now, here's the thing, there is no standard diminsions for these things, some are wider, some have sloped shoulders, some have deep ribs, whatever. They are as the person who made them planned for them to be. The sizes above are wildly inconsistent. ***** I have seen the same thing with vintage emblematical fraternal jewelry also...*****

If you are a fairly normal sized person looking for a bass, consider the quality of the instrument and your budget. ***** I did hence I'm 6 foot 200 lbs and bought a slightly used Engelhardt C-1 Bass, gig bag and other amenities, that a lad had played in his High School Orchestra....but then lost interest.*****

If you happen across 4/4 or 1/2 sized basses, WALK AWAY. Almost everything you see will be called a 3/4. If you happen to see something that someone calls a 5/8 or 7/8 or even if you're looking at a 3/4, consider how comfortable it is to you size wise. If you don't know how to hold it, get someone who does to help you. You want a comfortable instrument. **** I now have just that.*****

Second, if it is physically comfortable to your body, then what you really care about size wise is what we call "mensure", which means the length of the string from the nut to the bridge. If there is a standard and you are a stubborn American who refuses to recognize the metric system, like the rest of the world, it is about 42". Anything much shorter or much longer than that would give me pause. If it's 41" and I loved the bass and could afford it, I might not worry about it, but know that anytime you sit in on someone else's bass, you'll have to adjust or you'll likely play flat. It's always an adjustment to play someone else's bass anyway. My first teacher likened it to "driving someone else's car", you spend the whole time trying to figure out how to turn on the lights and turn off the windshield wipers. So, my thought has always been not to make that harder on myself by getting used to an odd mensure. If you plan on upgrading some day to a different bass, again, the closer to 42" that the bass you learn on is, the more likely that the next bass you pick up will be LESS unfamiliar to you. **** gotta go to the barn tomorrow and find my measuring stick and check out my "mensure".....*****

Mensure sort of relates to the physical size of the instrument, kind of, but it's not exact. We've all seen anomolies. *****uh-huh****

If you read the recent thread we had with a kid who wants to get a bass some day and is worried about what wood the bridge should be made out of and stuff...this is not quite the same, but a reasonable question with a similar answer.

3/4 is "normal" - 41 1/2 - 42" of mensure is the 90th percentile. That's what you want unless you have some specific physical or musical needs to accomodate. There are much more important things to look for when shopping for a bass. ***** Sir, I have read all of your post reply with deep interest and am very Thankful for it.*****

Vintage? I don't know. It's a term that people can substitute for "used" or it could mean something. **** Well when I think of electric guitars & basses I think anything made prior to say 1970 as "vintage", that is why I ask....****

Solid wood seems to "open up" sonically after 20 years or so. 200 year old basses can sound great, if they were well made to begin with and have been cared for or properly repaired.

If you're buying a 1998 Wilfer or something, I would consider it "used". Is it a nice instrument, can you afford it, does it meet your needs? I would expect the price to be something lower than a brand new Wilfer of the same model or general make. If it's from the 1940's and it's solid and playable, it likely apprecaited.

There has been plenty of "old vs new" debate. They're snowflakes, man. Get the right instrument for you and don't get caught up in needing an old one or wanting a new one. If you're looking for something to learn on, buy a good student bass from a reputable dealer with a good set up or private party and take it to a good luthier for a set up.

If you are looking for "your" bass that "speaks" to you. It will take a while and you'll have to play a lot of them before you find it, we all do.

Hope that helps. *****very much thanks*****

2 more things:

If you want a 400$bass, as your moniker suggests, don't waste your time here. We can't and won't help you get one, we will only lecture you and try to talk you out of it. ***** I appreciate your opinion, but it is too late. I bought 6 year old Engelhardt (in excellent condition) for 400 bucks. I'm a student and a retired pensioner and think it will suffice for my scenario. *****

I'll start the lecture by saying, you'll be wasting $400 on an instrument that will never be what you want it to be and will not get you closer to whatever your musical goal may be. ***** I've already got my $400 dollars worth and have only been practicing just two weeks.****

It will only frustrate you and if you insist on talking about it here, will only frustrate us. ***** it is not my nature to be a "wet blanket, I know you gents are a serious sort and don't want to be bothered with someone cry babying about there "El Cheapo" Bass."****

If you want more help from us than this, you need to fill out a profile. ***** I just did that, thanks*****

We're a very helpful group if we know who we're talking to. **** I think I filled out most of the profile info...check it out if you like.****

We can be initially polite or harsh with people who we don't know anything about. ****whatever*****

I hope I came off as polite to you, I'm sharing some useful info here and it took a bit of time to type. If I didn't, however, my apologies.***** No, your reply was deeply appreciated, Thanks a Heap!!!!!
  #11  
Old 01-29-2009, 10:20 PM
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Englehart makes a good bass and $400 is a screaming deal on it if it's in one piece, which it must be. Congrats on your purchase and welcome to the world of doublebass.

No one here cares if you have an Englehardt or a 200 y/o French masterpiece. Only that you have a playable bass and that you are sincere about whatever it is you chose to do with it.

We get a lot of people here who see some really awful cardboard basses on eBay and want us to tell them that it's okay to buy them. Now that we know you, we won't make wrong assumptions about you.

Your Englehardt is a 3/4 and I'll bet your mensure is within 1/4" of 42" one way or another. But it doesn't really matter now that you've got your girl and you're enjoying her.

Congrats again,

Troy
  #12  
Old 01-29-2009, 10:28 PM
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400$Bass,

Learn how to use quotes - I needed a roadmap to read your last post. gave . I'll teach you - put in a [quote] before the quote you want to use, and a [*/QUOTE] after. For the [*/QUOTE], simply get rid of the asterisk - I added it because without it, the sentence would have been 'quoted'.
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Last edited by dchan : 01-29-2009 at 10:32 PM.
  #13  
Old 01-29-2009, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyK View Post
Englehart makes a good bass and $400 is a screaming deal on it if it's in one piece, which it must be. Congrats on your purchase and welcome to the world of doublebass.

No one here cares if you have an Englehardt or a 200 y/o French masterpiece. Only that you have a playable bass and that you are sincere about whatever it is you chose to do with it.

We get a lot of people here who see some really awful cardboard basses on eBay and want us to tell them that it's okay to buy them. Now that we know you, we won't make wrong assumptions about you.

Your Englehardt is a 3/4 and I'll bet your mensure is within 1/4" of 42" one way or another. But it doesn't really matter now that you've got your girl and you're enjoying her.

Congrats again,

Troy
Honestly, my little Hen bought my Bass for me. Which is even better. We have been married 36 years and she watches my back and supports me in any interest I pursue. And she's little enough to fit inside a 3/4 size....haw.
  #14  
Old 01-29-2009, 10:55 PM
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[quote=dchan;6900642]400$Bass,

Learn how to use quotes - I needed a roadmap to read your last post. gave . I'll teach you - put in a
Quote:
before the quote you want to use, and a [*/QUOTE] after. For the [*/QUOTE], simply get rid of the asterisk - I added it because without it, the sentence would have been 'quoted'.
Sorry about the *****, I'm barely housebroke.
  #15  
Old 01-30-2009, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 400$Bass View Post
Sorry about the *****, I'm barely housebroke.
Nice one Indiana - you'll fit in!
  #16  
Old 01-30-2009, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 400$Bass View Post
Honestly, my little Hen bought my Bass for me. Which is even better. We have been married 36 years and she watches my back and supports me in any interest I pursue. And she's little enough to fit inside a 3/4 size....haw.
What a great gift. She sounds like a peach and she got a great buy.

My friend has had his Englehardt for 15 years. They are very stable. He ended up with a mixture of gut and steel strings on his and it opened up the sound nicely. I'm trying to remember, but I think my first rental bass was an Englehardt. They're workhorses.

They're about $1,800 - 2,000 new and used they are usually maybe $900 - 1,400 depending on condition and the market and how badly someone needs to sell.
  #17  
Old 01-30-2009, 09:52 AM
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Hi 400$bass,

I just read your profile, your GAS list in particular. Sorry to disappoint you, but Antonio Stradivari never made a double bass. Welcome to TalkBass.
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  #18  
Old 01-30-2009, 09:54 AM
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I thought he was Joking! You were, right, 400?
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  #19  
Old 01-30-2009, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtlownds View Post
Hi 400$bass,

I just read your profile, your GAS list in particular. Sorry to disappoint you, but Antonio Stradivari never made a double bass. Welcome to TalkBass.
Now can that be positively, concretely proven, that A.S. the great master, did NOT make a Double Bass. Or is it just conjecuture on part of Violin History Scholars that his workbench would not accomodate a Bass? Interesting.

I have read about 3 books on A.S. And as I recall he did not make a Double Bass...however in the profile it said "wish list", so why not Wish BIG....

Whoever put this site together...it is a good deed! Thanks.
  #20  
Old 01-30-2009, 10:45 AM
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There is a girl in my orchestra (she is first chair :P)
She has to play a 1/2 size. She is small.

The first chair cellist is her BF and he was playing it like a cello! that bass is small!
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