2009: A (Chinese) Bass Odyssey...

[swingingoodtime]

Hi all,

More in my hunt for a reasonable bass at an affordable price (all things being relative)…

Like everyone, I’m looking at getting the best instrument that I can within my budget; however, I’m particularly interested in getting an instrument that I can expect to keep for quite a while, both from a quality and playability aspect. I play trumpet and found early on that a beginner horn very quickly imposes its inherent and many limitations on the player, necessitating an upgrade to a better & more expensive instrument after a relatively short period of time (not to mention making the learning process less enjoyable on an instrument that doesn't play as nicely as a better one).

Accordingly, I'm looking for a bass that I won't outgrow in a hurry (assuming diligence in practice!), with a budget of about AUD $2-2.5K (yeah, I know that's not much in terms of basses, but I'm also not trying for the $1K CCB's...).

I have a preference for as much solid material as possible in the body, as tone is extremely important to me (second only to playability). Looks are less important, although I do prefer violin corners to the gamba-style.

My 'net-digging has unearthed a number of what appear to be reasonably priced Chinese basses, varying from solid-tops to all-solids (I’m passing over laminates, in spite of their inherent stability and toughness). Unfortunately, the models I’ve found are mostly in other (Aust) States to where I live, so there's very limited opportunity to easily compare models.

I’m looking at playing jazz; lots of pizz and a little bit of arco, so the aim will be to identify a suitable short list and then maybe go for a trip (not sure if I’m comfortable buying unseen/unheard…!)

So, has anyone ever tried/owned any of the following brands of basses? I’d love to hear your feedback/thoughts/experiences:

- Joseph Viotti SDB (all solid, from Hayes Violins in Melbourne) - $1900
- Franz Josef solid top $1900
- Ernst Keller EK06VB3/4 (allegedly all-solid, but only $1400? Hmm… )
- Capriccio (solid top) $2300 or Amore (all solid) $3700 from Animato Strings, Queensland.
- Sandner SB-2, all solid $2500, Jouelline Strings, Victoria
- Stentor Student 2, all-solid $2700 (yeah, I know that’s there’s plenty on this one on TB).

I guess a question that underscores all of this is: Has the bar dropped as time passes? Is it getting easier to buy a ‘keeper’ for less than previously possible? I realise that I’m not going to get the ‘greatest bass ever’, but would be happy to secure a solid instrument without spending the dough that I could on a Gliga or Shen (if the latter were even in the country, that is…)

Thanks heaps!

[John Sprague]

Originally Posted by swingingoodtime

I guess a question that underscores all of this is: Has the bar dropped as time passes? Is it getting easier to buy a ‘keeper’ for less than previously possible? I realise that I’m not going to get the ‘greatest bass ever’, but would be happy to secure a solid instrument without spending the dough that I could on a Gliga or Shen (if the latter were even in the country, that is…)

Thanks heaps!

I can only speak with knowledge about the way things are on the top half of the world, but I would say yes, you get more bang for your buck now than 15 yrs ago. As one of my dealers put it, the market's realistic expectations for entry level carved dropped two grand recently. I think your price point puts you in with hybrid buyers for the most part.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by swingingoodtime

I guess a question that underscores all of this is: Has the bar dropped as time passes? Is it getting easier to buy a ‘keeper’ for less than previously possible? I realise that I’m not going to get the ‘greatest bass ever’, but would be happy to secure a solid instrument without spending the dough that I could on a Gliga or Shen (if the latter were even in the country, that is…)

Thanks heaps!

There is a "race to the bottom" going on in the string instrument business. An oversupply exists at the low end, causing prices to be artificially low. Many instruments in this range are selling retail for less than the value of the instruments' wood. To meet these commercial pressures, the manufacturers are having to cut corners, either by using green and/or questionably sourced wood, skimping on workmanship, or in some cases dumping product below their costs just to gain or maintain some market share. Buying one of these instruments is a gamble at best.

[brandonwong]

If you ever consider Singapore a place to shop, i have a couple of Shens in stock. Beautiful instruments and tone, their hybrids bows with good tone.
Christopher basses are also another brand in stock as well that most people are considering based on the same budget.

[swingingoodtime]

Hi John,

Thanks for that! And let me just say; if I had the $$, a Shen would be a serious consideration (although for freight to not be an issue, perhaps that should read: "... if I had the $$$$$$$$...")! Our market down here is frustratingly small compared to the US; you guys have it soooo good! Mind you, you guys also invented jazz, so I guess it's only fair that you get dibs on the cool stuff, too... ; )

Cheers,

Paul : )

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

There is a "race to the bottom" going on in the string instrument business. An oversupply exists at the low end, causing prices to be artificially low. Many instruments in this range are selling retail for less than the value of the instruments' wood. To meet these commercial pressures, the manufacturers are having to cut corners, either by using green and/or questionably sourced wood, skimping on workmanship, or in some cases dumping product below their costs just to gain or maintain some market share. Buying one of these instruments is a gamble at best.

Interesting POV, and not one I'd necessarily disagree with to some extent. However, prhaps that's a positive flip side to our small market down here; the baseline quantity of buyers may be too low to try to profit off 'sucker-buys', and a retailers reputation would quickly tarnish if they tried to consistently palm-off crap.

Heck, most generalist music instrument retailers who list DB's on their books down here tend to not even carry them in stock (ie, special orders only), which would suggest that they probably never make sales to begin with. The other sellers are the specialists that eschew bad instruments; I think as a result, our version of 'competitive prices at the bottom end' turns out to be at a surprisingly good standard of instrument (all things considered).

Some of the forum posts I've read seem to suggest that the US cops a lot more by way of really crap CCB's being brought into the country than others; I wonder if this is why?

Having said all of that, there are some CCB's floating around for about the $1K mark; we're not completely devoid of junk!

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by brandonwong

If you ever consider Singapore a place to shop, i have a couple of Shens in stock. Beautiful instruments and tone, their hybrids bows with good tone.
Christopher basses are also another brand in stock as well that most people are considering based on the same budget.

Hi Brandon,

Thanks for that, although that'll probably only happen if I move there (or strike it rich!); for the costs of freighting it back, I could sink that money into a better locally available bass. In the interim, I'll just have to keep diverting a little of the bass-fund into PowerBall each week...

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

There is a "race to the bottom" going on in the string instrument business. An oversupply exists at the low end, causing prices to be artificially low. Many instruments in this range are selling retail for less than the value of the instruments' wood. To meet these commercial pressures, the manufacturers are having to cut corners, either by using green and/or questionably sourced wood, skimping on workmanship, or in some cases dumping product below their costs just to gain or maintain some market share. Buying one of these instruments is a gamble at best.

Arnold,

I just saw the images of your Montagnana bass on the TalkBasses page and oh, my...!!!

Just beautiful; love your work! Utterly gorgeous. Having done a little woodwork in my past, I can appreciate your craftsmanship, but then looking at it, what fool wouldn't?

: )

[arnoldschnitzer]

Swing, thanks for the kind words. I should clarify that in my mini-rant above, I was not referring to established Chinese brands such as Shen, Christopher and Eastman. I was referring to the type of junk sold on Ebay and through the generalist music/guitar stores. I should also disclose that I sell Shen instruments in my shop, and believe they represent excellent value.

[Rastus_01]

How did you go Swing?
Did you get a Bass?

I am currently doing the same search (in AU) though at a slightly higher price level. I have only found two sellers that are dedicated UB shops and seem to have the appropriate skills and knowledge to set up a bass properly, one in Sydney and one in Adelaide. I live in Cairns with no Luthier for miles so initial setup is important to me. The Adelaide one seems to have a better range of low end ($$) instruments and at least you can guarantee you will walk out with a well set up instrument. I am planning of flying down from Cairns to one of them (depending on who has what at the time) and renting a car to drive my baby home. This all adds at least another $1000 to the expense though.

So how did you go, did you get a good instrument/setup from these other stores?

[Andrew McGregor]

Take a look at Pete McGregor in Auckland too.

[LouisF]

This any help?

http://www.thebassshop.com/new_basses.html

LF

[Rastus_01]

Yep, that’s one of the two dedicated UB shops in Australia with a good enough range of instruments , just a mere 2700 Kms, or 1677 miles (by road) from my location. (Long way to travel for luthier repairs). The only other shop I have found with a decent range of (low to mid priced) instruments is 3400 Kms (2112 Miles). I believe I will receive top service from either of these shops and they both seem to have a reasonable range of basses to choose from. So it will be worth the extra travel expense and time.

You guys in the US have it easy.

[LouisF]

Yeah, but we don't have kangaroos (sorry, couldn't resist)

LF

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by Rastus_01

I have only found two sellers that are dedicated UB shops and seem to have the appropriate skills and knowledge to set up a bass properly, one in Sydney and one in Adelaide.

Hi Rastus,
Unfortunately, my bass plans have been put on hold as I had to put my bass savings into unanticipated bills (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...ahem) but I've continued my research. Re the Sydney shop, I've started to hear more & more recommendations to not go to them, as the old management has since moved on and there appears to be some uncertainty re quality & direction under the new mgmt regime. I'm not able to substantiate these concerns personally so make no personal comment on the shop, but the general tide of opinion is getting hard to ignore. Which is a shame. For Sydney-siders, it appears that luthiers are now the way to go (which is not a shame for the luthiers, I guess!)

The Adelaide one seems to have a better range of low end ($$) instruments and at least you can guarantee you will walk out with a well set up instrument. I am planning of flying down from Cairns to one of them (depending on who has what at the time) and renting a car to drive my baby home. This all adds at least another $1000 to the expense though

Yeah, the Adelaide mob (BW, yes?) seem to have some nice stuff, but not being able to play them without the hassle & extra expense of a trip (not to mention getting the damn thing back) make it hard to say for sure. I've had a couple of conversations with them and them seem very knowledgeable & helpful (but then again I'm an ignorant newbie so, hey...). They reckon their Lachlan Parkers are the pick in terms of value for money on a relative budget.

Have you tried these guys in Qld?
www.animato.com.au
www.grawert.com.au

According to their sites, both are supposed to have good knowledge of stringed instruments. Can't tell you much more about #2 as I've only had a brief chat, but #1 has a 7 (or 14? can't remember) day money-back policy (not sure how that works with the freight costs, though). Couldn't say how good the basses are/are not, but at least they're closer to you.

Incidentally, I got to have a close look & play of a 'Class C' Beijing Forest Instruments bass on the weekend; will post pics & sound files shortly (search the name in TB for that thread). Matt Tucker will hopefully also chip in with some input, as his knowledge is considerably more trustworthy than mine in terms of experience/knowing what the heck I'm talking about...

[LouisF]

Just out of curiosity - and not to hijack the thread - do any of our colleagues down under know how the Puliese basses sound - especially the higher end models? Thanks.

Louis

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by Rastus_01

I live in Cairns

Check out eBay auction # 330354351145; located in Hervey Bay. It's a 4/4 bass, though; also no idea of brand, although the item description says imported from Germany...

[Rastus_01]

Hi,
That Animato link looks good.

I think travel costs are going to have to be incorporated as I really don’t want to buy unseen. And yes, Brisbane is a lot less to travel and would be happy if I find my “baby” there. A lot less Kangaroos to run over on the return trip too .

My plan is (once I finished raising money) to firstly get in contact with all the shops by phone, then decide which one, fly to the shop, and hire a car for return trip to bring bass home. I dont want to send it via post. I think its worth the cost. Its only an 8 hr drive for you (from Melb?) to Adelaide. Easy.

Have heard similar thoughts but no facts about Sydney, shame as I visited the shop many years ago and had a chat with the old gentleman there, he spent several hours with me even though he knew I wasn’t buying, just very interested. The fact that they don’t show prices on the internet indicates an issue. Would be very interested to chat with someone either happy or otherwise, with their range and service and setup.

That ebay bass is here
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....id=p2759.l1259
Bridge looks too far up the neck to me (uneducated but learning thanks to this forum). It’s a long way to travel for just one instrument as there is no way I would buy unseen. I have sent him a list of questions about the bass so there may be more info soon. Well spotted

Rastus

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by swingingoodtime

Re the Sydney shop, I've started to hear more & more recommendations to not go to them, as the old management has since moved on and there appears to be some uncertainty re quality & direction under the new mgmt regime.

Without naming any names Id like to know some specific criticisms on "the sydney shop". The same luthiers are still there, so I wouldnt be worrying over changes in workmanship, but by all means double check any new policies with warranty etc.

They will cater for your budget, although I do wish they had more choice in the high end stuff. But lets be fair, this is australia, and theyre not going to shift a lot of stock in the high price brackets.

Theres another luthier in sydney, but youll be dropping a house deposit if you want a bass there.

[Rastus_01]

Hi Jazzman,
So is this an endorsement? Have you had dealings with them?
As I say I am open minded and have to admit it will come down to who has the best range of instruments in my price range at the time. I would love to hear some factual endorsements or criticisms of any shops in AU so I can better choose.
The problem is lack of hard information. The most critical people usually base their opinions on hearsay or some weird prejudice and not actual experience.

I would actually be more comfortable buying in an UB shop, not a violin shop that has a few basses in the corner, so the two shops are still at the top of my list. Brisbane will be an option only if I don’t manage to raise as much money as I hope to.

Cheers