Is a 5/8 right for me?

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

...despite all the warnings on here about how you just had to get a teacher or you'd wind up crippled for life from poor technique.

Nah, no one here ever argued that. Rather, we argue that the likelihood of injury is greater without proper technique. You may not be crippled for life, but you can hurt yourself. Even one or two lessons can set a new player on a safe path.

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

...Some of these guys on here, while well meaning, seem to think everyone is in training for the London Philharmonic. Some of us just want to pound out a few Bill Monroe and Hank Williams songs...and guess what? I seriously doubt their bass players had ever heard of the Simandl method.

Ah, the classic internet argument of "all or nothing" extremes. There's a great deal in between just plunking out a few notes and playing in the London Philharmonic. Most here aspire to somewhere in between. Many aspire to a level that requires all of the talent and skill required for the philharmonic, but in different genres. Those levels are reached via good teachers.

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

So I watched some vids and started playing and you know what? It ain't all that hard!

It depends what "it" is. If you want to play well, then it's not all that easy. Sure, if you set your sites very low, you can plunk out what's satisfactory to you at that low level. Not surprising at all.

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

If you have been playing EB and know the I/V and walking patterns in country music you will be rocking from almost the gitgo once you learn your way around the larger scale. It just ain't rocket science.

...and you'll likely sound like a converted EB player which most of us can spot visually and sonically from miles away. Again, if all you strive for is a rudimentary level, then fine.

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

...I been at it 6 months. I play almost every day and no injuries yet.

The operative word being, "yet." If you drive around without a seatbelt, you can probably go for a long time without injury as well, but when it happens...

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

Am I a great bass player?...Hell no. Am I even a good bass player?...Probably not by the standards of most on here. Am I good enough to play roots country?...Hell Yeah!

Hey, if you're happy, then great! It's worth pointing out, however, that your aspirations are lower than that of most folks around here. There's nothing wrong with that but I think it limits greatly the generality and usefulness of the advice you offer.

By the way, I'm not a pro player. I have a day job and I'm a nighttime/weekend warrior. I'm not a great player. I'm likely not even a good player by the standards of many here. Still, I've spent years with teachers, both classical and jazz. Maybe I just have a low level of talent. Maybe you're a "natural genius" of a player. I do know that my experience with regard to formal training seems to square quite well with the experience of most here.

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by drurb

Nah, no one here ever argued that. Rather, we argue that the likelihood of injury is greater without proper technique. You may not be crippled for life, but you can hurt yourself. Even one or two lessons can set a new player on a safe path.

That's good advice. I wouldn't argue I just think you put this injury paranoia out there a little strongly. I think you need to have a pretty hardy constitution to even want to tackle such a large instrument. I've had jobs as a raft/ flyfishing guide, snowmobile guide, landscaper, construction worker, furniture mover, etc. that not only involved some real life danger but also involved exposure to risk of carpal tunnel, etc. by nature of the mechanics of repetitve movements. I'm just not that scared of your wooden box with strings.

Ah, the classic internet argument of "all or nothing" extremes. There's a great deal in between just plunking out a few notes and playing in the London Philharmonic. Most here aspire to somewhere in between. Many aspire to a level that requires all of the talent and skill required for the philharmonic, but in different genres. Those levels are reached via good teachers.

I agree and didn't mean to speak in absolutes. I look forward to meeting other bass players in my travels and learning all I can. My only point is don't let not being able to afford a teacher hold you back from trying, particularly if you are just looking to start out playing doghouse stuff. There's plenty of good vids and instruction online to get you going.

It depends what "it" is. If you want to play well, then it's not all that easy. Sure, if you set your sites very low, you can plunk out what's satisfactory to you at that low level. Not surprising at all.

If by "well" you mean bowing with perfect intonation or sight reading some experimental jazz piece then I don't care a whit about playing well. As a doghouse player, I thinks it's more a rhythm instrument and at some level you either have it in you or you don't. I think the way it comes together with my mando player vamping is pure magic at times so I am continually striving to improve my timing, clarity, tone, intonation, muting, use of sustain, and general mechanics.

...and you'll likely sound like a converted EB player which most of us can spot visually and sonically from miles away. Again, if all you strive for is a rudimentary level, then fine.

Wave at me. I'll be the guy on stage.

The operative word being, "yet." If you drive around without a seatbelt, you can probably go for a long time without injury as well, but when it happens...

Such a nattering nabob of negativity you are. "Hey Doc! It hurts when I do THIS." Doc: "Then don't do THAT!"

Hey, if you're happy, then great! It's worth pointing out, however, that your aspirations are lower than that of most folks around here. There's nothing wrong with that but I think it limits greatly the generality and usefulness of the advice you offer.

I'm definitely not tring to be the intraweb DB guru, that job seems to be filled. I offer only observations not advice. I just think that sometimes the newbies on this forum are bombarded with a one size fits all type of advice that can sometimes be discouraging to those casual players who just wanna try banging on the bull fiddle.

By the way, I'm not a pro player. I have a day job and I'm a nighttime/weekend warrior. I'm not a great player. I'm likely not even a good player by the standards of many here. Still, I've spent years with teachers, both classical and jazz. Maybe I just have a low level of talent. Maybe you're a "natural genius" of a player. I do know that my experience with regard to formal training seems to square quite well with the experience of most here.

I don't know that I'm any kind of natural genius on anything but the the bass did feel right in my hands from day one. It just feels like a natural part of my body and an extension of my self, like it's always been there. I wish I had been playing my whole life but at 47 I have a few years left.

As a flyfishing instructor, I frequently had clients that would be much better at it if they didn't try to overthink it so much. They would book hours of casting lessons and agonize over minute details of their casting mechanics. Then they would spend thousands on the highest tech gear available trying to find just the right rod, reel, line, etc. The only thing they couldn't buy was a fish on the line. These guys were usually doctor/lawyer types who are used to being good at what they do and they would get so frustrated that they weren't turning into ace fishermen. So then they would come to me and say "What am I doing wrong". I would casually cut a willow banch, tie a leader and fly to it and flip it out and catch a fish. Then I would wink at them and say "Just relax, you are overthinking it" and hand them my stick and then teach them to really fish..

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

I'm just not that scared of your wooden box with strings.

If ignorance is bliss, then you must be very happy! There have been plenty of strong players who, even with training, have ended up with hand injuries. Without training, it's all the more likely. Really, I hope you never find out how wrong you are. Then again, if you restrict yourself to rudimentary playing, then you are likely to be fine.

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

If by "well" you mean bowing with perfect intonation or sight reading some experimental jazz piece then I don't care a whit about playing well.

No, that's not necessarily what I mean at all. Again, you seem to be missing much of the continua of playing this instrument. Playing well involves so much more. It's even about what you said here:

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

I think the way it comes together with my mando player vamping is pure magic at times so I am continually striving to improve my timing, clarity, tone, intonation, muting, use of sustain, and general mechanics.

I wonder how well you do all of that. If one wants to progress along those dimensions, then a teacher is the best way.

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

Wave at me. I'll be the guy on stage.

Well, if you're that guy on stage who plays like a converted EB player and can be spotted from miles away, then, sadly, you have yet to figure out what playing the DB is all about and you really haven't experienced the joy. If you're happy with that, then fine. Really. It, however, bolsters my point. You're aiming low compared to where most newbies are aiming.

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

Such a nattering nabob of negativity you are. "Hey Doc! It hurts when I do THIS." Doc: "Then don't do THAT!"

It's not negativity, it's realism. Furthermore, if it were as simple as "if it hurts, then don't do it," hardly anyone would sustain an injury. Look, I'm not suggesting that playing the DB is, overall, dangerous. The truth is that it's a physically demanding instrument and that to achieve even a modest level of sophisticated play brings some risk that's, at least, worth considering. That can be avoided with even one or two lessons. So, to extend your medical theme-- think risk/benefit ratio! Now, take a breath and realize that other players here with decades of experience typically concur with and echo my sentiments. That's experience talking.

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

As a flyfishing instructor, I frequently had clients that would be much better at it if they didn't try to overthink it so much. They would book hours of casting lessons and agonize over minute details of their casting mechanics. Then they would spend thousands on the highest tech gear available trying to find just the right rod, reel, line, etc. The only thing they couldn't buy was a fish on the line. These guys were usually doctor/lawyer types who are used to being good at what they do and they would get so frustrated that they weren't turning into ace fishermen. So then they would come to me and say "What am I doing wrong". I would casually cut a willow banch, tie a leader and fly to it and flip it out and catch a fish. Then I would wink at them and say "Just relax, you are overthinking it" and hand them my stick and then teach them to really fish.

That's a touching story but the misleading implication is that those who believe in formal instruction are those who tend to over-think playing the instrument. That's unfair. Sure, there are those who do and, yes, I agree that there are no "rules" to playing. Still, it's just plain foolish to underestimate the enormous benefits conferred by having a good teacher who uses a successful curriculum. The proof is that virtually every accomplished player from dedicated amateur to pro has gone that route while there are precious few in that group who didn't. Only on the internet could there be an "argument" about the value of a teacher!

Addendum
I started on the DB over 40 years ago. I was fortunate to be guided by fine teachers. During the time I've been a member here, I've been in agreement with others who've stressed the importance of having a teacher. One of the reasons offered has been the avoidance of injury-- something that is more probable than people usually think is the case.

Still, I had never once suffered a bass-related injury. I figured that I likely never would, especially given that I had/have large, powerful hands. Then it happened. You can read about it here, if you care to. The thread also contains reports and anecdotes from other players who suffered injuries.

I believe that I injured myself because of a habit I developed when playing with a two-finger technique with the right hand. With medium to high string heights and with EP weich strings, I would often catch the E string with my second finger. I was able to that just fine and without pain all the time. It never seemed unsafe-- until I did it over a period of hours and it ripped open my sagittal band! There really wasn't much warning. I'm playing again as a result of a talented surgeon who did a special repair geared to allow me to play again. Don't worry though, nothing like this would happen to you. You have no reason to fear the "wooden box with strings." (insert sarcasm emoticon)

[mgcasella]

I've got good news: I called KC Strings and will be going there this week. I explained the issue and they said I could easily trade in the bass and get credit toward another one with a shorter scale

I was told they have uprights in stock with a scale shorter than 43" and - if I bring in my present bass - I could get the new one set up that day. I have a set of Psycho Slaps on my current bass so it would be nice to switch them on to the new one.

KC Strings is such a great store I'll make sure to update everyone as this progresses.

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by mgcasella

I've got good news: I called KC Strings and will be going there this week. I explained the issue and they said I could easily trade in the bass and get credit toward another one with a shorter scale

I was told they have uprights in stock with a scale shorter than 43" and - if I bring in my present bass - I could get the new one set up that day. I have a set of Psycho Slaps on my current bass so it would be nice to switch them on to the new one.

KC Strings is such a great store I'll make sure to update everyone as this progresses.

Good deal. I have Silverslaps on right now and I'm liking them. Like to try the Psychos. Enjoy it! Take that girl home and slap her like a red headed stepchild!

[mgcasella]

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

Good deal. I have Silverslaps on right now and I'm liking them. Like to try the Psychos. Enjoy it! Take that girl home and slap her like a red headed stepchild!

Haha From what I've heard Silverslaps are supposedly even better for Psychobilly than the Psychoslaps because there is less tension. I love how the E just growls when I slap it though - hopefully it will be even more kickass on a shorter scale.

At any rate, they'll be posted for sale soon because I've got a set of Tiplop guts coming in the mail - I can't wait!

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by drurb

Well, if you're that guy on stage who plays like a converted EB player and can be spotted from miles away, then, sadly, you have yet to figure out what playing the DB is all about and you really haven't experienced the joy. If you're happy with that, then fine. Really. It, however, bolsters my point. You're aiming low compared to where most newbies are aiming.

Y'know Drurb I think that's a pretty unfair judgement to make. Here's just a few of the joys my bass has brought me so far:

1. The Hunt- after seveal months of research )and thanks for all the help in the sitckies and other forums), I got serious about searching for a bass and then spent several months looking and trying any I could. This was a joy just learning about the DB but finally bringing mine home is a day I'll never forget.

2. DAY ONE I'd read plenty of intruction tips and watched vids but actually exploring the bass and figuring out how to utilize the tips to get sounds out of the bass was really fun. I don't get this whole EB player stigma thing. Sure I had some habits to break and techniques to abandon but I quickly figured some things out. It only took a day to realize that my shredded fingertips were due to trying to pluck across the strings with my fingertips like an electric player. I concentrated on the fingers down pizz style and plucking with the meaty side of my fingers. Wow revelation! Then I noticed that to get good sound and any volume it took more. I realized I was trying to get all the power from my fingers alone. Aha! Add a little body english moving the whole arm in the right way and Bingo! Big Bold Sound! WOW! Hear that note ring out and just grin listening to it decay. Joy for me.

3. DAY TWO Okay feeling better about pizz. Let's try some slapping. Rewatched some vids while trying to get the hang of it. Best tip was it's like dribbling a basketball. CLICK! Then I felt it. The timing and mechanics came together and I practiced just on open strings and soon I was keeping good time and even alternating single and double slaps. Pretty joyous feeling there.

4. DAY THREE Time to work on left hand. Stacking first and second fingers and pinky stacking were already techniques I used on EB and it seemed to work well for DB. Getting some cramping and realizing I was gripping up too hard I concentratated on fretting with less pressure and getting the correct hand position to take advantage of the gravity/opposing forces of the clawhand or whatever you call it. Came naturally quickly. Now let's work on finding all the notes on the fingerboard. No cheater marks on the bass when I bought it except a tiny pencil line at 5th and 12th. Should I put some on? No. I don't want to end up relying on a crutch, but look, there are some lines in the flame on the neck that I can use for some gauging if need be.

What's the best way to figure out the fingerboard and learn good intonation? Well for me it was playing daily with my brother on guitar. We started playing all of tunes we have been playing together for years. I found ways to alter basslines I played on EB to make them work better on DB.
So much joy on day 3 playing I/V's like Folsom Prison and walks like Georgia on a Fast Train and man they don't sound half bad!

5. THREE WEEKS I'd left the Spiro Mittels that came on my bass on for a while for two reasons. One was I had read that a lot of the oldschool bluegrass guys used metal strings so I wanted to give them a shot and not be a wuss and build up some finger strength. The other reason was I was a little afraid to put on the Silverslaps I bought because it might require a little sanding of the nut slots. Local band shop guy says he'll put 'em on for $75 but I have to leave the bass and I can't be there to watch him to learn like I wanted too. Forget that, I reread the tips on string changing and nut filing and do it myself. I also install a K and K pickup which took some filing and sanding of the bridge slot. Then I find the sweet spot and try the bass through a few different amp/cab combos. Sounds decent but I think I should get a preamp. Great day and a huge joy to get over the fear of doing minor work on my bass.


6. THREE MONTHS After much practice with my bro we start playing gigs as an acoustic variety duo or what I call us a fools without stools act. Getting paid to play is no big deal to me. I've been doing it small time since highschool on guitar and bass but it was a really special feeling to be doing it on upright. I also discovered that chicks dig the big bass! Much more so than EB gigs I would notice a few girls in the audience literally fixated on it, especially if I ham it up with some rockabilly moves. OH JOY!

7. SIX MONTHS Hooked up with a new original roots country band with CD almost ready for release and tour dates on the books. Played a few out of town gigs with them already to very receptive crowds. Had several people ask for my autograph! If they only knew I was just a newbie EB convert. I had to laugh. I'm also backing another oldschool country crooner at some of the shows. He's been around the block and the world a few times and he told me I was one of the top 4 or 5 bass players he ever played with. My first response was "HAHA you must have only played with 5 then." He assured me he had played with way more than five and that felt pretty good. It also feels good when I get compliments on my playing and the tone of my bass from other bass players at the shows.

8. THE FUTURE In March we start touring in the Midwest and South and release the new CD. May and June we will be going West with gigs all the way out to Seattle and down the Cali coast and then Vegas, AZ, TX, TN and home. I don't expect to get rich and famous and I don't care. What boy from Ky doesn't dream of hitting the honkytonk trail playing original music that stays thats stays true to the rich musical traditions of his home? Pinch me Drurb I think I'm dreaming!


I think I have had more joy than any man deserves after getting my DB and I need not your validation in any way.

[Eric Hochberg]

Spiro Mittels are metal strings.

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

Spiro Mittels are metal strings.

I know. Read more carefully. I left them on to experience them because some old guys use them and it helped build up finger strength. To elaborate I knew from right off that fighting those bridge cables was not going to be ideal but I really did like the sustain and the growl factor. I figured I'd go the route of most roots players and get gut or synthetic eventually and I did.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

I know. Read more carefully.

Write more clearly.

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

I'd left the Spiro Mittels that came on my bass on for a while for two reasons. One was I had read that a lot of the oldschool bluegrass guys used metal strings so I wanted to give them a shot and not be a wuss and build up some finger strength.

I fail to see how this is unclear in any way.

[gottliver]

So, is 5/8 right for me?

[zon6c-f]

ALL..No worries; my T B skin is thick and flame proofed now.
I enjoyed the banter.

I wish you all much joy and happiness with D B/ string bass.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

...I think I have had more joy than any man deserves after getting my DB and I need not your validation in any way.

No, you surely don't. No one here does. Go and be happy. I mean that sincerely. We clearly have very different goals. Mine are much closer to what is typical here. Still, that doesn't make mine better in any absolute sense. You seem to be doing what you want and enjoying it and I didn't mean to rain on your parade. I did, however, want to make it clear to others that, in general, your advice is way out of the norm and why.

You've eschewed even one or two lessons with a teacher and I hope that doesn't come back to bite you. In all probability, you won't suffer injury. That's also true about riding around without a seatbelt. As I said, "risk/benefit." I guess we evaluate that differently as well.

Different strokes...

[homersbassfarm]

mando means bluegrass- i suppose

nothing more irratating than a member of a group who is not meek(teachable) I think back to a guitar player who wouldn't use a tuner like the rest of us- he would tune up back in a corner and he never was in tune. His meter was always off- problem- never had a teacher- a good teacher will insist on counting and keeping the beat- you are kidding yourself if you think you can do this alone-that is to become a good bass player that you seem to have the potential to become, listen to what is being said to you and you will greatly increase your chances of becoming a good bassist- we all want that for you!

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by homersbassfarm

mando means bluegrass- i suppose

nothing more irratating than a member of a group who is not meek(teachable) I think back to a guitar player who wouldn't use a tuner like the rest of us- he would tune up back in a corner and he never was in tune. His meter was always off- problem- never had a teacher- a good teacher will insist on counting and keeping the beat- you are kidding yourself if you think you can do this alone-that is to become a good bass player that you seem to have the potential to become, listen to what is being said to you and you will greatly increase your chances of becoming a good bassist- we all want that for you!

Mando=Mandolin

Interesting you use the word meek for teachable. I've played in a lot of bands over the years and while the meek might inherit the world eventually, they rarely inherit the larger stages.

You think a good teacher will insist on keeping the beat? You should see me crack the whip on my drummers!

Look I never intended to imply that the best way to learn DB was sans teacher, I just offered observations as someone who found themselves in that situation. I firmly believe in the benefits of good instruction and have had quite a bit over the years including piano from toddler to 4th grade, then two years of trumpet, then guitar throughout Jr and High Scool. I've played with all kinds of musicians in all kinds of bands from bluegrass to punk rock. I've played with incredible classically trained musicians and I've also played with guys like the head of the String Dept. of a state college that could play anything with strings and played all the notes and the classic licks flawlessly yet on stage it just came off as lifeless and without any soul. Instruction is not an end-all be-all in itself.

Thanks for the encouragement and I don't want to be too unmeek but I doubt there is a teacher around here that has a much better internal metronome than me. I am positive, however, that there are plenty who can teach me other things and I will seek out these options when available.

[zon6c-f]

BERT..CHECK YOUR P M'S , MY FLY FISHING BROTHER...
Z..

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by gottliver

So, is 5/8 right for me?

No! We're not gonna %$#@ing do Stonehenge tomorrow! Try and keep up!

[Jsn]

Hey Bert,

I know your signature line reads "Boom boom swagger swagger boom boom", but I'm betting you're a decent enough guy to ease up on the swagger in this thread. Gottliver was trying to get us back on topic. I checked, and the heading was still Is a 5/8ths right for me?, not How I am a naturally-gifted bassist who needs no teachers, or even luthiers.

Here's the thing: this thread was started by someone who's thinking about driving eight hours, round trip to spend thousands of dollars on what may be a once-in-a-lifetime purchase--someone who wants real advice from us. Maybe we can give the OP some genuine attention and honest thought. And then we can all get back to being awesome.

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by Jsn

Hey Bert,

I know your signature line reads "Boom boom swagger swagger boom boom", but I'm betting you're a decent enough guy to ease up on the swagger in this thread. Gottliver was trying to get us back on topic. I checked, and the heading was still Is a 5/8ths right for me?, not How I am a naturally-gifted bassist who needs no teachers, or even luthiers.

Here's the thing: this thread was started by someone who's thinking about driving eight hours, round trip to spend thousands of dollars on what may be a once-in-a-lifetime purchase--someone who wants real advice from us. Maybe we can give the OP some genuine attention and honest thought. And then we can all get back to being awesome.

Hey Jason

Gottliver is not the OP, that is Chuckbass and his issue is being resolved or at least we are awaiting his update. Gottliver has been on this forum since 2004 and would know if it was right or not by now so I presumed his response of "so is 5/8 right for me?" to be sarcasm directed at the derailing the thread took so I jokingly responded in kind.

Glad you like my sig. It's a line from a Murder City Devils song. I'm the bass player and my job is to bring the bottom end and I'm not shy about it. I believe energy and attitude is as important an ingredient for success as good chops.

Anyway I'm out. PEACE.