Advantages of three string bass?

[Badener]

Originally Posted by LouisF

As I understand it (and I make no guarantees about this), mid 19th century, the Italians and French were playing three stringers tuned in 4ths and 5ths. It was the Germans and Austrians, responding to writing of Beethoven etc that went to the four string bass. The advantage being a wider range, but, according to some, a loss of tonal quality.

I think it is not appropriate to say the 3 string bass is a forerunner of the 4 string bass.

E.g. have a look at Gary Karr's Amati bass built in 1611. This seems to be a 4 stringer by its origine like most other basses made since.

The 3 stringer is a "fashion" instrument in the "classic" time periode in southern Europe - Italy, Spain, maybe (?) France. In other European countries they never were very common.

Thomas

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

...It's amazing how much time people can waste with all these little particulars which actually could be put towards becoming better players. Experimentation is good but distraction can take it's toll. It's interesting to consider other eras but we must always live in our own time in order to be truly relevant.

Bravo, Jason, bravo!

[iiipopes]

Originally Posted by Badener

The 3 stringer is a "fashion" instrument in the "classic" time periode in southern Europe - Italy, Spain, maybe (?) France.

And England.

[drurb]

Okay, consider these from the 16th century. I took these pics in the Museum of Ancient Musical Instruments in Vienna. How many strings?

[robobass]

Drurb,
Fascinating, but 16th century? Can that be? I'd love to see that instrument myself. How big is it?

[Nathan Parker]

Originally Posted by drurb

Okay, consider these from the 16th century. I took these pics in the Museum of Ancient Musical Instruments in Vienna. How many strings?

I don't think those are basses.

As far as this conversation goes, I don't think there was a solid consistency in number of strings or tuning for this instrument until the 20th century. I have read in one of my methodology books that Bottesini was quite livid about the insistence of composers writing bass parts that required a low E. He was sure that was ruining the instrument. Given the level of virtuosity today, seems he was wrong.

Advantages? Probably none. I think if it were a better or even a reasonable alternative, you would see people doing it at a high level. Aside from specific ethnic music, I've only seen Edicson Ruiz using his bass as a 3 string for a few concerts in which he is the soloist. Given the number of classical musicians that spend there money and adding more low notes to their basses, not taking some away, I think 3 strings are mostly novelty at this point.

But, you should do what you want. Just be aware of the limits of your choices. As for being relevant, it's over-rated. I keep calling "Starships" on my gig, but these old irrelevant bastards say they don't know it, and insist I play "End of a Love Affair". I've never even heard that on the radio.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Nathan Parker

I don't think those are basses.

Yes, they are, indeed, basses, especially the first one.

[robobass]

Originally Posted by drurb

Yes, they are, indeed, basses, especially the first one.

Looks like a bass to me!

[Nathan Parker]

Aren't they viols? They got the big cello tuners.

Plus, I don't think they're basses until you slap at least one pickup on them and run them through an amp with at least 200 watts. It's not a bass if you can't hear it.

[Thumpie]

Originally Posted by Nathan Parker

Aren't they viols? They got the big cello tuners.

Look closely at the first one. It looks like it has geared machines. Those "big cello tuners" are actually just something like flattened hat pins.

This thread is fascinating!

[Thumpie]

I once read a book about the history of the double bass, but I can't remember the title right now.

I got the impression that the bass is directly descended from the viol, but its exact origin remains a mystery. Some people still call it the bass viol.

[Thumpie]

That first example is astonishing! It is thoroughly modern in appearance!

[Jason Sypher]

There is an exhausting book, I believe it's called "Looking at the Double Bass" which goes into very fine detail the history and origins of the instrument. I seem to remember that the earliest basses used for the role of doubling the continuo line at the bottom of the church score were in the 1600's but I could be wrong. That instrument looks like a viol de gamba or violone to me.

[drurb]

I may have the year wrong... I'll check it. Still, it's undeniably a very early form of what we'd call a bass and it has four strings.

[Badener]

Hi!

From the beginning of bass history it is not very easy to make a differentation between violone, double bass or how ever the instrument is called an how many strings it has. Have a look at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violone. In the German article is a time table of the names of "the" instrument beween 1556 and 1666 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violone

Thomas

[LouisF]

I think it's very difficult to say if a particular bass started out as three or for stringer. For example (from Wikipedia(:

Bottesini's bass was said to be a unique instrument with a remarkable sound. It was built by Carlo Antonio Testore in 1716. The instrument was owned by several unknown bass players. It nearly met its end in the 1830s as it sat backstage in a marionette theater in Milan. Bottesini purchased the Testore in 1838 for 900 lire. The Testore bass was later converted back to a four-stringed instrument, and then to a three. Eventually, it was changed back to a four-string configuration and is now in the possession of a private collector in Japan. Bottesini was also one of the first performers to adopt the French-style bow grip for the double bass. This style was previously used solely by violinists and violists.

There is a direction on the last page of Verdi's AIDA (pppp passage) which I am in rehearsals for now: "i contrabbassi che hanno il Sol profondo sono pregati di abbassare ancora un mezzo tono".

Roughly translated, it means that basses possessing a low G, should tune down another half-step. This would mean (in 1871, with Bottesini himself conducting the premiere of AIDA - and often taking his bass in stage during intermission and playing operatic "fantasies", that as late as the 1870s there were 3-string basses in common use (G-D-A).

The only reason I can think for the direction (the last notes are all low Gs) is that Verdi/Bottesini did not want the powerful low open G string of the 3-string bass resonating longer than the written 8th note, and wanted the string tuned down to get a stopped note.

Pure conjecture on my part, but I don't know what else to make of the direction - unless he wanted an F# clashing with the low G???

Louis

[Nathan Parker]

Last night I was forced to perform on 3 string bass for the first set of my gig. I'm pretty sure it was karma for posting in this thread.

I believe I will stick with 4, 3 is real weird.

[Hector Wolff]

I think it was Paul Brunn who wrote a very well researched and highly regarded book called (I think) "A new history of the double bass". He documents that four strings were used in various tunings from quite early on, but that the lowest string was quite unsatifactory in the begining, though the situation became somewhat better with the develpment of metal wrapped lower strings. He also mantains that even though for practical reasons, many larger bass viols or violones were converted to be double basses - the double bass as we know it, did develop as the largest member of the "new" violin family.

[Thumpie]

Originally Posted by Hector Wolff

I think it was Paul Brunn who wrote a very well researched and highly regarded book called (I think) "A new history of the double bass". He documents that four strings were used in various tunings from quite early on, but that the lowest string was quite unsatifactory in the begining, though the situation became somewhat better with the develpment of metal wrapped lower strings. He also mantains that even though for practical reasons, many larger bass viols or violones were converted to be double basses - the double bass as we know it, did develop as the largest member of the "new" violin family.

Do you remember if it talked about there being DBs developed independently of each other? The early DBs having the gamba shape coming from the viols and the violin shaped basses coming from the more modern violin family?

What's the difference between a modern gamba shaped DB and a bass viol? The inclusion of frets? I understand that some viols where fret-less. Are there other defining structural features that differentiate the two instruments?

[eerbrev]

From what I've read over the years, basses have had anything from three to six strings, been tuned in thirds, fourths, fifths, and various combinations thereof (including, but not limited to, from low to high: EADG ADG, CGDA GDA, FADF#A, FADF#B, DGCEad, GFCAdg, GADG, DGDG[ popular in Holst's England] and others ad nauseum). stating that there has been any kind of "Progression" aside from one to the other aside from the improvement of string technology (and modifying of the instruments to cope with the tension of the aforementioned string tech) is probably not a good idea.

All the tunings, string lengths, body sizes and body shapes have their advantages and disadvantages. Some of these we favour now, others we have favoured in the past, others we will favour later.

Advantage to a three string? less top tension, which arguably helps volume and fundamental pitch.

disadvantages? the strings are farther away, you lose all notes below A unless you retune, and if your bass is already "boomy", it might become a woofy mess (but hey, some people like that sort of thing)

as for what you do, well, if you're not in school, I assume you're big enough, old enough and ugly enough (in the words of my father) to make your own decisions, and whatever you decide, you'll never get anywhere unless you practice your buns off. I play in 4ths (out of necessity) and 5ths (by choice and preference), so I practice double the amount.

eerbrev