Advice Needed: Playing jazz electric guitar AND acoustic bass

peterp · #1 06-21-2011, 07:14 AM

This is my first post on TalkBass and I'm hoping you can provide some much-needed advice. My son is moving into middle school and they have a great jazz band that practices daily. He has been playing jazz electric guitar (EG not BG) for a few years and is very talented. He auditioned for the jazz band and is good enough to join on jazz guitar, but they have 2 guitarists already so he has been asked to learn acoustic bass (they will not accept BG) until a guitar slot opens for him next year.

He currently plays EG, sings, and plays drums and is active with jazz and rock bands. Drums are a sideline, but he is very serious about guitar and vocals. Long-term he wants to be a jazz guitarist rather than a bassist. We were leery that adding bass might be too much for him to practice all these instruments, but also initially thought bass might be a compliment to the guitar, so he signed up for DB lessons.

He had is first DB lesson yesterday and learned that the fingerings are all different. It also seems to have very different physical requirements (light agility on guitar versus strength agility on DB). Now we are wondering whether trying to take on DB would be too much – he already has a heavy load and it doesn’t look like DB will be that complimentary to his long-term goal to be a jazz guitarist. He WANTS to do it all, but is struggling time-wise with his current load.

Given all this, we are thinking that maybe he should not try to take on the DB and just focus on jazz guitar this year and join the jazz band next year when a slot opens, but this means he misses daily jazz band (something he has been hungry for) for a year. I don't play bass or guitar, so I don't have any first-hand knowledge to help advise him, so I’m hoping somebody can provide guidance about the wisdom of trying to play both EG and DB given his situation. It would be especially great to hear from somebody who actively plays both EG and DB.

Thanks,
Peter

ThumpPlunkJunk · #2 06-21-2011, 09:00 AM

Welcome, firstly!

Secondly, the guitar and bass guitar are just that--they're guitars. On the musical family tree, they're across the branches and limbs from the Double Bass, which is a viol.

Now, in consequence to this--yes, they're played completely differently. You can apply what's learned on a double bass to the bass guitar with a little translation and a knowledge of the scales and whatnot, but the translation doesn't go from bass guitar to Double Bass. It's a huge commitment of time and practice to learn an instrument like the double-bass, and it's not necessarily something you can just wing until you get the hang of it, so I wouldn't advise playing in Jazz Band until he's confident on his abilities on the double bass. It's a great experience, playing the double bass, and I don't think he'll ever regret learning it if he does, but if his heart isn't into it and he doesn't want to play the double bass because he wants to, but rather has to, I would advise against it.

I don't play the guitar, but I play both electric bass and upright bass and the upright requires much more of my time than the electric. I have a guitarist friend who joined jazz band two years ago and he's made to play the acoustic bass and every time I talk to him, he really hates having to play an instrument he doesn't want to play.

peterp · #3 06-21-2011, 09:59 AM

Thanks, this feedback helps a lot. He has a great attitude and is very much up for learning the DB since it is his only option to join the band (he would vastly prefer to play electric guitar or even electric bass). But given the commitment required and difference in playing the DB, it doesn't sound like the right thing for him to take on.

Lack of time is somewhat limiting his ability to get the most from his guitar, vocal, and drum studies, so it sounds like adding something so different is going to detract from his primary instrument (guitar). I'm thinking maybe he should wait a year and focus on guitar during that time or make another request that he enter the jazz band with electric bass (which is more complimentary).

Thanks,
Peter

spoonido · #4 06-21-2011, 10:16 AM

I'm not clear on what HE says about all this. Are his friends in the band? Are his grades good in school? Does he say he's stressed? Is it possible he could form or join a band outside of school?

I was on my way to becoming quite the jazz guitarist at 11 years of age, but the stress I was under at the time caused me to rebel and play folk music instead! Having lost his protege, my guitar teacher was crushed.

Anyway, there's all kinds of arguments about bass rounding out the musical experience and enhancing theory learning, or spreading yourself too thin, but it's up you to listen to what he is saying. If he's pumped up by being a part of the band and learning new skills, all's well; but if his grades are slipping, or if he is stressing and is willing to say so, then you have your answer.

peterp · #5 06-21-2011, 10:46 AM

There was no formal music program at his elementary school that he's graduating from, but outside of school he is in two music-school-based rock bands and one jazz community program. He is also in the process of starting to write original rock music. The community jazz program is great, but they only practice once a week, and have only a few concerts throughout the year, so stepping up to daily jazz at his new middle school would allow him mature musically much faster.

His grades are very good and his attitude is great -- we are always concerned about him being overloaded but he doesn't feel that way, at least about music. All that being said, he can't practice as much as he should because he has so much going on, so he is biting off more than he can chew even if he has the appetite. DB sounds different enough that it seems like it might put over the edge of taking on too much and not excelling at his primary instrument. I don't really see him going into "rebel" mode, but I can easily see him not progressing as quickly as he has been due to distractions.

longfinger · #6 06-21-2011, 10:46 AM

It's pretty sad that a middle school jazz band doesn't allow electric bass in the band.

Eric Hochberg · #7 06-21-2011, 10:57 AM

^Agreed. Maybe have a talk with the teacher if your son would like to play Ebass in the band.

IMO, let your son do as he pleases with this, and find his own way. What you consider his primary instrument now will only continue as that as your son regards it that way. I went from classical piano training to guitar and Ebass, to trumpet (major at Indiana) to double bass, which has been my primary instrument since my early twenties. There are many great musicians who play more than one instrument well. Your son may become one of them.

spoonido · #8 06-21-2011, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longfinger

It's pretty sad that a middle school jazz band doesn't allow electric bass in the band.

Yeah - what's with that!?

hdiddy · #9 06-21-2011, 12:24 PM

Having attempted jazz guitar prior to DB, I dunno.

Sometimes people need to be forced into things they don't neccessarily want to do. There are plenty of stories out there of legendary musicians who made their name on some other instrument than they initially had their eyes on. Ron Carter and cello comes to mind.

Still, 4 instruments seem to be alot. Just one of those will take a lifetime to master. I'd say he's already spread too thin with just 3 instruments alone. Heck, jazz guitar is no easy mountain by itself. Comping, soloing, chord-melody soloing, composing, learning new voicings, that's a ton of work. Since we dont' really know unless we hear him... how deep is his knowledge about just jazz guitar? You can never go deep enough, and school sponsored jazz band cannot replace long hours of self-study and practice.

I guess the saying is apropo: When digging for water, it is better to dig one 10' hole than ten 1' holes.

peterp · #10 06-21-2011, 01:49 PM

I think part of the school's rationale for him learning DB is that he would be able to play in the orchestra as well. It sounds like they need basses in both jazz and orchestra. He doesn't currently play an instrument that is a match for the orchestra and really he doesn't have any interest in orchestra because he likes to be able to improvise and personalize anything he plays, so it probably wouldn't be a good match for him.

Regarding his skills/knowledge, he really knows a lot. He's great at comping and improvising, knows chord and scale structure, so he's very deep into it. His jazz execution isn't quite as polished as his jazz knowledge and ideas simply because he tends to focus most of his time on rock (even though he like jazz just as much, there are many more opportunities to play rock currently). That's where playing jazz daily would really take him to the next level. I agree on the 10' foot hole, especially since he likes that hole a lot and has already dug pretty deep.

hdiddy · #11 06-21-2011, 04:12 PM

Quick question: Does he have a private jazz guitar teacher?

Andrew McGregor · #12 06-21-2011, 04:14 PM

One thing about the DB is that it is VERY physical, and if you don't have time to do enough practice to get fit for it, you're going to get injured... and hand injuries really suck.

Also, and this may be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective, if you play DB, you're going to get so much work that your other instruments will fall by the wayside; that happened to me at school. There isn't enough competition, which means you get to do a lot of playing, which means you tend to get good fast.

hdiddy · #13 06-21-2011, 05:39 PM

Yup. There's so many guitarists out there, they're falling from the trees. Want work? Play drums or bass.

nicechuckh · #14 06-21-2011, 05:45 PM

IMHO, if he wants to, it could be a great thing. Even if jazz guitar stays his primary direction, to me a guitarist knowing what it's like to play upright may be a big help to him later in several areas. Tho not a professional musician, I play everything from guitar, EB, pedal steel, piano, mandolin, banjo, etc. My favorite is DB. If you can afford an instrument for him and hopefully a teacher at least to get started, and he wants to, seems like a great thing to me.

Marcus Johnson · #15 06-21-2011, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdiddy

Yup. There's so many guitarists out there, they're falling from the trees. Want work? Play drums or bass.

That's a good point, but to me, if someone "dabbles" in an instrument...DB or any instrument.... it dilutes the intent. I've run into a lot of guitarists who became bass players because there were too many other guitar players. most of them sounded like guitar players dabbling on bass. I played guitar professionally for years along with bass, but eventually I had to accept that the bass is the voice that found me. I love the guitar and play it often, but I don't take the stage with one any more. I hear it when other people play it, I don't when I play it. With the bass, it's as natural as my speaking voice.

Besides, let's face it... if it's a financial consideration, and you want to be in the music biz, you don't play any instrument. You start a booking agency.

Sam Sherry · #16 06-21-2011, 06:41 PM

I started playing guitar and bass around the same time, when I was around 13. I loved the bass and made it a serious study. I had fun on guitar, screwing around with it for decades. Very recently I started to play jazz guitar in public, but only in "social music" settings -- the local pub, the basement big-band etc. It's a way to hang out and enjoy musical exploration on a much less involved level, since I suck on guitar and suck less on bass.

My two cents is this: It sounds like your kid really wants to play guitar and doesn't much want to play DB. If that's right, it's better to recognize that than to strategize around it. There is a lifetime to play around with both but there is never an extra moment to focus on what you truly love.

peterp · #17 06-21-2011, 08:21 PM

Thanks for all the feedback. He does have a private jazz teacher. His current jazz teacher is actually a pianist -- he studied with guitar teachers previously, but he knows the guitar mechanics well now and just really clicks with his current teacher who happens to play piano. He does have a guitar teacher (that plays guitar) for rock. He has a DB teacher as of yesterday who is quite good, but still trying to determine whether it's right to pursue DB.

I concur that there seems to be more work for bass players -- we even see this in rock where it seems harder to find a bass player than guitar. His concern is just following his passion which currently is guitar.

I didn't realize that playing DB was so physical, especially on the hands. It would be a disaster if he injured himself on DB and couldn't play guitar. He is pretty tiny -- probably average height for a soon-to-be 6th grader, but very thin, so something as physical as the DB might take a toll. He tried his teacher's 3/4 DB and it was too big for him, so we would need to go 1/2 or 5/8.

I think I'm going to approach the teacher again and request that he be allowed to play electric bass, it seems like the only reasonable answer. I'm pretty sure he won't agree because we've already asked, but if he does agree, then we will get him a BG teacher and focus on it over the summer. If he doesn't agree, then maybe he'll just focus on guitar and join the band next year.

MaxJohnson · #18 06-23-2011, 10:16 AM

As someone who plays both, it's definitely a possible thing to achieve, and all instruments inform your knowledge on other instruments. As long as he takes them seriously, it can be done. Also: JOE MORRIS | guitarist, bassist, improvisor, composer

shwashwa · #19 07-05-2011, 05:56 AM

just my opinion, but if guitar is his instrument then let him play guitar. why should he play bass just to be in a band? let him stay out of the band for this year and really focus on his guitar lessons and the community jazz thing. if they told you that there was no room for guitar but he could be in the band if he wanted to learn to play trumpet would you do it?

Recamier · #20 07-05-2011, 07:04 AM

Being forced to play double bass sounds like a pretty good reason to quit playing music all together.

You do realise that he's never going to play guitar in the school's jazz band if he starts playing double bass, right? They don't care about your son. They want a double bass player. If they actually cared about your son and his education, they would have offered electric bass instead.

Don't under-estimate how crappy a school's music teacher can be. My niece wants to play drums, but the school's music teacher requires percussionists to qualify as pianists before they can get a percussion spot. She hates piano and pick violin instead. She'll play violin for a year and drop out just like every other kid would.

What sucks is that it is always about what the adults(parents and teachers) want and not what the kids want.