All Metal DB?

[PatchDaBass]

Hi my fellow TalkBass Forum users and fellow Bass players. I'm new here so please be patient with me.

I'm posting this thread because I am in need of some help. I play for my college's Jazz Band and today I talked to my professor if I could use and loan one of the upright basses we have at the campus. He agreed and let me go check things out. When I went to the instrument closet I noticed that there were four DBs but one of them stood out from the rest for me. The DB in question is, from what I could tell, an all aluminum body with rosewood fretboard DB with a paint job to 'mimic' wood. Now I would like to use this DB but I have a few concerns about it. One it's missing a bridge, tail piece, end pin, and a set strings. It also looks like it needs some new tuners or at least some new screws for the tuners. Also I'm concerned about the tone that will be produced from it. I've never seen a DB like this before so I have no clue on the tone.

So my question is what would be a good bridge, tail piece, end pin, set of strings, and also a pickup for this DB. And would the overall tone of it be good for a Jazz/solo group?

Please and thank you!

[Rebop]

Most likely an old Alcoa aluminum bass. They sound fair for bluegrass and have seen it used for all kinds of "Americana" type music. The tone is really, um, neat. Not really a jazz bass. You're looking at a possible expensive bill for a set up too (it doesn't retain any hardware other than the tuning machines, bummer). Sounds like it's been derelict for a while; best to leave it.

[Jason Sypher]

That's not the bass for you. Nobody is going to benefit by choosing an aluminum bass for your ensemble. It's cool looking, true, but to develop as a bassist you need a wooden instrument. As bassist we generally try to get as woody a sound as we can produce...just like the masters before us. Learning to create a good bass sound is challenging enough without the extra, impossible goal of making aluminum sound like wood. Go back to the closet and pick the best sounding/playing wood bass you can find.

[Stev187]

There's been some good discussion on the aluminum basses here on this thread before (this thread, among others). I think you'd be better off looking at the best of the other three wooden basses; even if they are plywood basses (as the most likely are), they will be better instruments for you to get started with.

--Steve

P.S. The people on this list are so helpful; if you can take a couple of shots with your phone or a camera and post them here, I'm sure people could help you make your choice and point you in the right direction.

[Feral Feline]

PatchDaBass, Blaze a new trail, I say, damned be the naysayers. if you don't take it – send the alloy bass to me!
If we bassists didn't ignore some well-intended advice, there wouldn't be any basses in the orchestras, bands, ensembles etc. as basses were at one time shunned altogether.

Originally Posted by Rebop

... Not really a jazz bass ... best to leave it.

No, not really a jazz bass at all. Nope. No sireee...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/28/ny...rnal.html?_r=3
I guess nobody told Vince Giordano.
A Trip to the Jazz Age, in Times Square - Video Library - The New York Times

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

That's not the bass for you. Nobody is going to benefit by choosing an aluminum bass for your ensemble. It's cool looking, true, but to develop as a bassist you need a wooden instrument. As bassist we generally try to get as woody a sound as we can produce...just like the masters before us. Learning to create a good bass sound is challenging enough without the extra, impossible goal of making aluminum sound like wood. Go back to the closet and pick the best sounding/playing wood bass you can find.

Monsieur Sypher, I've watched your vids, listened to your playing and enjoy your music. I cannot agree with your comments here. Where does it say you need to make aluminum sound like wood? Certainly you could recommend a wood bass without a blanket statement that says aluminum is not the bass for someone or their ensemble. You have limited info at best of what PatchDaBass's college jazz band's needs are.

You said yourself in the linked thread stev187 posted that you know someone who uses an alloy bass exclusively.

No, alloy basses are not for everyone (or carbon-fibre, fibreglass and other materials) and I appreciate your good intentions to help PatchDaBass, but please keep an open mind.


Well, anyway...

PatchDaBass, do your homework and see whether an alloy bass is for you. Personally, I look forward to getting my hands on one someday.
Here's some links to get you started on your research.
STLBlues Reviews
YouTube - The Crown Vics - Sundown Boogie Bass + Drum Interlude ; YouTube - The Crown Vics - American Hot Wax
http://alikat.com.au/history.html
All Things Strings:Steve Shain

[bassteban]

FINGERboard.

[Stev187]

This has turned into a thread about aluminum basses (and in part, it is) but the OP's question really had to do with a choice of basses in the college closet. He had two concerns about the bass: the amount of work it needs, and its potential tone. Given the fact that the metal bass needs so much stuff, it seems like you'd need a really good reason to select this one over the other three. If it were me, I'd find the one that is closest to being playable and jump on that. While I am all for open-mindedness and blazing new trail, I do think that once you get a bridge, tuners, tail piece, end pin, and strings on that puppy, it has a much smaller chance of producing a tone you will like than the other basses in the closet.

--Steve

P.S. I'm still chuckling about the post in that other thread about Ray Brown using the aluminum school bass as a toboggan.

[Jason Sypher]

Well, I have heard an aluminum bass played quite a bit. I too was intrigued when I first heard it. I have played it many times and find it completely lacking in so many areas that I am inclined to make a blanket statement that a wood bass is more musical and more interesting than an aluminum instrument. I also think, since the OP is a student that it would be a better use if time learning how to draw sound from wood. The consensus from the entire community of musicians around this particular aluminum player is that he should get himself a wooden bass. In short, people don't like the sound. I like the idea of trail blazing, finding something new that others discarded as useless trash (Ornettes plastic alto for instance), but I think it would be an uphill battle for the OP and could possibly lessen his chances of becoming a great player. If the OP feels strongly about this sound and concept he should go for it but he will be putting himself at an early disadvantage....(IMO)

[punkozuna]

Hi PatchDaBass! Did you see what kind of aluminum bass it is? There are two types - the older Alcoa basses made in the 1930s out of welded-up aluminum sections. It has an aluminum neck. These basses are pretty rare and have a reputation for not sounding very good. They are kind of collectible and usually bring a high price (for what it is. In the bass world an expensive Alcoa is still pretty cheap).

The other kind is a Pfretszchner aluminum from the post war 1940s Germany. Supposedly made because suitable wood was scarce after the war. Maybe made into the early/middle 1950s. They have a wood neck and are made out of stamped or beaten aluminum panels held together with a BUNCH of screws. They are more common, cost less and sound better. I own one and would favorably compare the sound to my Engelhardt ES9 or Strunal 50/4 (at least for pizz and slap - I don't bow so I can't compare)- not a high end bass but a perfectly acceptable student grade instrument. Besides the coolness of having one, one of the benefits is that you can take the top off to work inside. Inside it looks like a conventional bass - wood neck block, wood end block, bass bar, wood corner re-enforcement on the c-bout corners - no linings in the corners though. One of the downsides is that the screws can loosen and start buzzing but they just need to be snugged-up periodically. It is a much more rugged bass than even a laminate. Plus they can be fixed at the auto body shop.

Whether you should use this one for school is kinda up for debate. It does need some attention. If the other basses don't need the work you're probably better off using one of them. You SHOULD try and see if they'd sell you the tin-can for cheap though. ;-) Seriously, if they want to sell it and you aren't interested, I might be.

[Feral Feline]

Fair enough guys. I admit I'm wacko for these aluminum basses for some reason.

*sigh* Yes, a would bass wood be better for a multitude of reasons I can't deny. Apart from James Condino, there's probably not many luthiers willing/able to work on these hunks of tin. Reset a neck on an alloy bass? Hah!

Nonetheless, I'm addicted to the thought of having an AlCoA. I need .

What I really need, however, is to practice more. Excuse me while I go do so...

[Stev187]

Originally Posted by Feral Feline

What I really need, however, is to practice more.

I resemble that remark!

Here's an idea--you should find a creative way to make that aluminum bass yours. I can't imagine the college has a long-term use for it, especially in that condition. Maybe there's a sweat equity swap for it--fix up the other basses in exchange for the metal bass? Do some other work for the department? Buy it outright? I've worked for a college for nearly 20 years, and when stuff is kaput, it can go for real cheap. Get one of the wooden basses working for the school combo, and see if you can own the metal bass shell. Heck, throw it in your own closet until you get out of school and have the bread to fix it up. That would be a "both/and" solution.

Now, I am off to practice. ;-)

--Steve

[PatchDaBass]

Hi Everyone,

Wow first off thanks! I'm glad to see such a great diversity of responses to my original post. So a couple of things need to be answered first. A couple of you asked for a make. Sadly I did not get a name off of the bass but I should be able to after this week. It's Spring Holiday right now so I'm one week away from campus to check :/
So next question I've seen has been the needs of my college's jazz band. Now really the needs so far has just been me playing haha The college has been bass player less for like 2 years now so they are happy with whatever tone I get. Awesome but a noticeable thing with my instructor and director of the Jazz Band has been asking for a very 'punchy' tone. Odd I know for Jazz I felt a more mellow tone would be welcomed but meh his call.

After some Google searches with the information from all of you and I can say it is Alcoa aluminum bass, best research that helped was from punkozuna with the research of the aluminum neck which it did have. So thanks punkozuna! But mind you everyone I will not be able to tell complete until next Monday or maybe if I can this Sunday when I get back.

So in the time being I guess I will have to work with the other wooden uprights or search for a nice wooden hybrid or something like for now. My only concerns with those are how much ware and tear thats noticeable on them. But I guess thats how things roll I guess.

Also thank you Feral Feline. Your links have been very helpful. I might have to make a deal with the college and see if I can just take it off their hands Because it's nice to have options.

Now next question though to continue on the subject matter. Parts. What kinda of bridges should I look out for? Strings? Tail Piece, should I just make one (I do have a big block of ebony and the tools to do so), or buy one? And End piece? For this Alcoa Upright, if I do get the chance of "relieving" it from the campus.

But thanks again everyone for you input! I'm glad to see it! It has all been helpful! Now I too must get back to practicing!

[punkozuna]

Here's what an Alcoa can look like.

Now next question though to continue on the subject matter. Parts. What kinda of bridges should I look out for? Strings? Tail Piece, should I just make one (I do have a big block of ebony and the tools to do so), or buy one? And End piece? For this Alcoa Upright, if I do get the chance of "relieving" it from the campus.

I'm not sure what's "correct" on the bass but a conventional bridge and tailpiece should be fine. If you want to make sure it's "metal" maybe get a Slowey aluminum bridge or one of JaySin's similar style bridges (pm me for a link if interested).

I've seen brass knuckles and steel cable used to make a killer looking tailpiece.

The "lipstick tube and cable" tailpiece on this bass has always appealed to me.

[Jason Sypher]

Again I must chime in on the comment "punchy". I would not describe the aluminum bass I know as "punchy". It is loud, to be sure, but kind of spread out.

[PatchDaBass]

Hello Again Everyone!
So updates I'm back at school again and I asked my professor about relieving the weight of the DB in question and buying it from the school. His response is that he will check up on it and I might be able to do that. But in other news though I was able to find a really nice wooden Romanian Flatback DB for a really good price. So I'm now a proud owner of a new wooden DB!
Thanks again everyone for your input and it has been very helpful! I will keep posting little updates here and there about the Alcoa bass. Like if I'm able to get it, and my plans with it.
Thanks,
PatchDaBass

[Will Wolfgang]

If you are interested in using the Aluminum stand up i can give you some insight. I am an Aluminum and wood player. Acoustic the aluminum is nothing to write home about, however place a good pickup system inside with any hunk of metal to deaden the sound a bit (like an extra support post) you get a deep beautiful tone great for most any style. Not to mention the bass is great for tricks due to its invulnerabilty

However!
This is process is expensive, but it will make you stand out in a crowd. However it kills your acoustic chances pretty thoroughly.

here is my bass

[Woolfey]

I have an Alcoa aluminum bass,,, I bought the Wittner composite tailpiece and the Carbon Fiber end pin from Bob Gollihur. I would also advise buying the Witnner gut as well . All the steel cable ,Kevlar rope and other experiments sounded pretty bad... I put a piece of leather where the gut comes over and it made a ton of difference... My bass had a bridge with it so I used it ,,, My bridge seems low to me and I did have to do quite a bit of work to straighten out the neck which was bent from someone putting the wrong strings on it... I reset the fingerboard and the original bridge worked... It appears to me that the 5 string bridge for the Eminence electrophonic bass (listed on Bob's website) would work on MINE.. I tried several pickups that I could borrow and ended up using an "H" clamp set up from the Gollihur site with two Audio Technica 2021's... One at the fingerboard (looking for Wood sound ) and one at the lower end of the treble "F" hole...
My only complaint about this bass it the neck to me is a bit clubby after playing my 1940's Kay "O" model for years...

[Woolfey]

Originally Posted by Will Wolfgang

If you are interested in using the Aluminum stand up i can give you some insight. I am an Aluminum and wood player. Acoustic the aluminum is nothing to write home about, however place a good pickup system inside with any hunk of metal to deaden the sound a bit (like an extra support post) you get a deep beautiful tone great for most any style. Not to mention the bass is great for tricks due to its invulnerabilty

However!
This is process is expensive, but it will make you stand out in a crowd. However it kills your acoustic chances pretty thoroughly.

here is my bass

Will That bass is beautiful!!!! What kind is it??? Love the sound holes... And the extra bumps at the lower bout juncture... And the cutaway... Wow...

[Will Wolfgang]

Thank you, It is a MAD Crusher Custom, bass. I drew it up, and Crusher made my sketch into something tangible.

[ThumpPlunkJunk]

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