Anyone have info on a Pan-American Upright?

Bass Kahuna · #1 07-31-2008, 08:06 AM

Hi All,

I have a Pan-American upright in my shop for repair. It already had a poorly done (ie: BIG gap, poorly done glue joint) at the neck heel, and was then used as a prop in a theatrical production where it got swung around like a baseball bat, banged around by a bunch of high school kids during this time, dropped, etc.

After the show was done they were just going to throw it out and the 15 year old who brought it to me for repair snagged it before they could do that.

He just wants it made playable, so all I have to do is a neck reset and glue up several spots where the front and back seams are seperated from the sides, then a quick setup. The edges are pretty banged up but he's not worried about that (for now), he just wants his own upright that he can play whenever he wants and not have to borrow one from school anymore.

I don't know much about different brands or models of uprights over the years, but this kid and his Dad have asked if I could find out anything about it's approx age and possible value.

There is a brown paper label inside the bass that reads:

Pan-American Symphony Model
Registered under No. 4700
Pan-American, Elkhart IND. U.S.A.

It has a really nicely flamed maple back and sides, etc.

I did find this on Wikipedia regarding the Pan-American Music Company:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Ame...rument_Company

So if that is accurate, this thing is no younger than 1956, when Conn stopped using the Pan-American name, right?

Here are a few pics of it (pre-repair):

Any info or sources of info you have would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance,

Jake deVilliers · #2 07-31-2008, 09:20 AM

That's a Kay!

I'd love to see it in person, but the shape, the proportions, the f-holes, the tailpiece, the tuners and even the break in the heel all shout 'Kay'. Can you show us the neck profile more clearly?

Lucky kid - got himself a Swingmaster for cheap.

jtlownds · #3 07-31-2008, 11:13 AM

That sure looks like an old Kay S9. I wonder if Conn was selling Kay basses under their own label. Selmer did.

Bass Barrister · #4 07-31-2008, 02:57 PM

Pan American was the trade name used by C.G. Conn for their line of student brass instruments. I own an old Eb tuba which was made by Conn (ca 1930) under the Pan-American brand and then lableled "Sorkin." These were sold by Sorkin Music of NYC. It's entirely plausible that Conn sourced some basses from Kay to round out their school catalogs from that period.

I'll post this on TubeNet and maybe get a response from someone with old Conn catalogs.

Jake deVilliers · #5 07-31-2008, 08:41 PM

There are Selmer Kays and Sears Kraftsman Kays. A Conn Kay seems a natural.

Bass · #6 08-01-2008, 08:27 AM

Crazy! Here's a unique piece of history, and kids are tossing it around like junk.

Bass Kahuna · #7 08-01-2008, 09:17 AM

I suspected this bass might be something special, hence my posting of it here.

I do have the original nut and bridge too, they're just not in the pics.

And here are more pics of the neck as requested.

Funny thing too, is the kid's Dad asked me "if it was worth fixing it for just a couple hundred bucks or not...".

Jake deVilliers · #8 08-01-2008, 10:54 AM

"Funny thing too, is the kid's Dad asked me "if it was worth fixing it for just a couple hundred bucks or not..."."

Tell him no, he should send it to me!

It looks like an earlier Kay to me. I haven't seen all the years, and its much too far away, but it feels like 1945 - 50 to me.

Gearhead43 · #9 08-01-2008, 05:40 PM

Yeah, not only is it a re-labeled Kay, but it's a S9 Swingmaster too.

I can't wait to see it all fixed up.

jtlownds · #10 08-01-2008, 08:07 PM

The volutes don't appear to be glued on to the scroll, it looks completely carved. Might be one of those rare kays with a carved scroll from the 30's.

Jake deVilliers · #11 08-01-2008, 11:52 PM

Jim, that's been bugging me too.

The concave side of the scroll end is different from my '38 and '39. Nice, too.

drurb · #12 08-02-2008, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtlownds

The volutes don't appear to be glued on to the scroll, it looks completely carved. Might be one of those rare kays with a carved scroll from the 30's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Jim, that's been bugging me too.

The concave side of the scroll end is different from my '38 and '39. Nice, too.

That's one of the first things I noticed. Glad someone brought it up. Did Kay make a "carved" scroll in those days?

jtlownds · #13 08-02-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drurb

That's one of the first things I noticed. Glad someone brought it up. Did Kay make a "carved" scroll in those days?

I'm no expert on this subject, but I was told that during the 1st couple of years of production, that Kay imported some necks with carved scrolls from Germany. I don't know for sure if that is true. I once met a lady who told me that she formerly owned a "German Kay". When I told her that Kays were American made, she insisted that it was German! Maybe it was one those carved scroll models.

Bass Kahuna · #14 08-02-2008, 11:39 AM

Thank You for all of this great info, it is greatly appreciated! I've already let Will (the 15 year old who pulled this baby out of a dumpster..) and his Dad know what this could possibly be.

There is some stamped letters under the "Pan-American" brown paper sticker which weren't visible in the original pics I took of the label due to shadows created by the flash through the f-hole, so based on this discussion I took it out in the sun this morning and took the following pic with my good digital camera... it looks like "S9" to me... here is a pic:

To help clarify the identification further, PLEASE let me know if there are any additional pics, details, or descriptions I can provide of anything that might help.

Like, did re-badged Kays still have a Kay serial number somewhere on them? I haven't seen one yet but I haven't looked THAT closely.

Thanks again for all your help with this one!

jtlownds · #15 08-02-2008, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

There are Selmer Kays and Sears Kraftsman Kays. A Conn Kay seems a natural.

Hi Jake,

I think you meant Sears Silvertone Kays. Their instrument line was branded Silvertone, and their hand tools were Craftsman.

Jake deVilliers · #16 08-02-2008, 01:31 PM

No, Kraftsman, but you're right, not 'Sears' but 'Old'.

'Old Kraftsman'. Hollow body electric basses and guitars - pretty cool in a low-tech way.

Roger Stower has a good list at www.kaybass.com :

"Other Possible brands might be K-Meyer - Challenger, Kustom Kraft, Old Kraftsman, K-Kraft, Kraftsman, Kay-Meyer, Selmer-Kay, Custom Kraft.

Kay manufactured all the basses for Selmer and for Gretsch."

Bass Barrister · #17 08-02-2008, 01:37 PM

S-9 was Kay's Swingmaster model number.

I own a Kay S-8 from 1939. The scroll is carved. Roger Stowers writes some about Kay scrolls on www.kaybass.com, suggesting that S models (Kay's top grade) did have carved scrolls along with ebony fingerboards and fittings.

Is there anything on the tuner plates. Early tuners came from Czechoslovakia, later ones were Chicago-made by Kluson. The tuners on my bass are not original so I can't check that out.

Bass Kahuna · #18 08-07-2008, 05:56 PM

I have pulled the tuners off (actually, the neck is off now to and the fingerboard removed from the neck so I can clean off all of the old glue and get it all straight and flat and glued back together....) and they have "Kluson - Chicago, ILL" on the inside of them.

Jake deVilliers · #19 08-07-2008, 08:09 PM

Geez Grandon, we could have told you that!

nathanmcnathan · #20 08-08-2008, 08:58 AM

I wish something like that would happen in my town... I'd love to save an old, abused bass from death