Aparent volume differences between solid and ply (newbie question)

[michaelc]

I recently went to a local music store to try out a double bass for the first time. I am a bass guitar player looking to crossover into DB. I played (or rather tried to play) a used palintino ply they had in stock, and I was shocked by how quiet it was. Is this just an issue with this particular bass, or are all plys generally quiter than solid wood basses?

Is it just because I lack proper technique?

I just can't picture this instrument keeping up with a jazz group, or even with a larger blue grass outfit. Rockabilly and electric country is certainly out of the question.

[Eric Hochberg]

I'm not sure why you'd be shocked by the poor sound of a super cheap bass being sold by a store that may not have any real double bass knowledge. With DB's, people are willing to pay big $$ based on quality and volume of sound.

Read the noobie links.

[Nagrom]

Keep looking. With experience you'll pull a big fat tone, but you don't want that bass.
One of the best things about hooking up with a teacher right away is that they have access to proper basses, such a decent instrument that one of their other students is ready to move up from. There's a lot of second hand junk out there that should not have been purchased in the first place, and somebody is looking to unload that junk on the unsuspecting.

[drurb]

In addition to that being an awful instrument, it's likely that you don't know the proper technique with which to "pull" the strings. As has been said here, you would be well served by a good teacher who can help you establish proper technique, develop good habits, and avoid injury.

Welcome to the dark side!

[michaelc]

Thanks for the info. I would love to be able to afford to take lessons, but that's not in the cards for me. I am starting to wonder if it is even worth trying to learn without help because the first piece of advice I get from everyone is find a good teacher....

The only good teacher in my area is way above my price range.

[Fletcher Lanning]

whatever your price range is, save for awhile; then take one or two lessons. Just getting a little time with someone who knows what they're doing will take you miles.

I don't take regular lessons but, when I come to something I'm having trouble with, I call up a local guy and he comes over for 30 min or an hour and fixes my issue. It's a great compromise if you can't afford regular lessons, and they can often point you in the direction of good method books or compositions that you should learn at your level.

Edit: You also might want to bend your definition of what a "good" teacher is. If you're just starting out, you don't have to take lessons from a player of a major symphony orchestra. Even a graduate student of a college program nearby would be able to give you a lot of tips that will put you on the right path, and will be a lot cheaper than someone whos been teaching bass for 20 years.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

If learning to play is important to you, you will find a way to afford it.

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by michaelc

Thanks for the info. I would love to be able to afford to take lessons, but that's not in the cards for me. I am starting to wonder if it is even worth trying to learn without help because the first piece of advice I get from everyone is find a good teacher....

The only good teacher in my area is way above my price range.

OK don't get discouraged. Don't quit before you get started. These good folks at DBF have offered heart-felt advice that is hard to argue with and is in the long run right - but you don't HAVE to do it exactly that way. You may have learned to play BG all by your self and you could start in on DB with a little or no help. Much depends on what kind of music you want to play.

But a little help would be good. Get someone that has taken lessons (or played the style music you want) to show you some DB basics - just an hour or so can help get started properly. Or maybe talk to that teacher about taking a couple session on his bass, then decide no or yes and go look for a bass.

Your original question about are you playing it right - probably not. For example you are likely reaching across the neck with your right hand and plucking with finger tips BG style. For DB, generally point your fingers toward the floor and use as much surface of your pointer finger as possible to brush/pull the string. Use wrist motion. This it will seem clumsy and slow at first but it gets the volume up and gets rid of the twang. Now before I get flamed, some do play across the strings, I'm just saying . . .

DB are much quieter that 250 watt stacks so get adjusted to it - really - you may like it. The store bass you were playing may be very sub-par - you just have to get out to hear others and see for yourself. It is not all about plywood vs. carved. I have played old plywood Kays that were LOUD! - seemed twice as loud as mine (also plywood). They are all different and setup matters. And being the bass player seems to be the worst position possible to hear the bass - 20' out is much better.

Some of the styles you mentioned probably would be amplified DB and really don't require advanced DB techniques . Just take some time to do some research. It is all between you, your music, and your instrument and nothing else. These big old boys do grow on you.

Hope this helps.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by michaelc

Thanks for the info. I would love to be able to afford to take lessons, but that's not in the cards for me. I am starting to wonder if it is even worth trying to learn without help because the first piece of advice I get from everyone is find a good teacher....

The only good teacher in my area is way above my price range.

Well, don't despair! I am self taught on bass guitar and double bass. Paul Warburton and I'm sure other pros on this forum are too. It can be done! Just take it easy, don't rush it, watch a bunch of bass players on youtube and live if possible to see how they do it, and very importantly, get a bass that's set up well and easy to play!

Good luck!!!

[Mike Arnopol]

but Eric, you don't want the poor kid to sound like you?
Some of the greatist bassists are self-taught, some highly schooled. It all comes down to your determination. I had lots of classical training, but threw a lot of it out and developed some of my own techniques that better suited jazz playing. Desire and hard work. That's all that matters. And some plywoods (like American Standards ) are ungodly loud. Like some previous posters said---a great bass set up like crap will sound like crap. A good plywood set up well can sound awesome.

[wayne holmes]

You might consider getting a hybrid at least- sounds like you play professionally- bass is just like bass fishing- the better the equipment, the more you will enjoy it. Take your time and play several basses plywoods, hybrid(plywood sides and back with carved top) and the fully carved. I have talked to several converts in the last few years and most of them go for a plywood or a hybrid to start out with. The set up will make all the difference as to how much you like it. Good luck, and welcome to the wonderful world of double bassists

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

I had lots of classical training, but threw a lot of it out and developed some of my own techniques that better suited jazz playing.

So that's the problem...

[Mike Arnopol]

On a serious note, Eric and Kelly Sill ( 2 of the top bassists in Chicago) (and both big influences on my playing) are self-taught. My jazz playing is completely self taught. I think a great way to learn by yourself is to have one or two mentors that you can have help you out from time to time. When I'd get hung up on something theoretical or musical, I'd go to Kelly Sill for a lesson. If there was a technical problem that I had trouble figuring out, I'd go to Larry Gray. (another great Chicago bassist) I would even pay Kelly to come to a gig I was playing and give me a lesson as a critique.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I think a teacher is helpful initially to get started with proper technique. That said, I agree that anyone with a desire and objectivity can watch the best and apply what they learn.
A foundation in 'correct' fingerings /technique is important, but in the end a player uses what works. Ray Brown, who studied with some very fine players, didn't note fingerings in his book saying essentially that you have to figure it out for yourself and use what works for you.
With YouTube and many other media, there are many things available to help someone get started than existed when most of us began our journey.

Michael, good luck to you and let us know how you're doing.

[Paul Warburton]

I was just thinkin'.....that youtube thang.....Is it possible that if we'd of had that back in my day, I could be more brilliant than I am now? May be....?

[Fletcher Lanning]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

I was just thinkin'.....that youtube thang.....Is it possible that if we'd of had that back in my day, I could be more brilliant than I am now? May be....?

If anything, I think youtube is a hindrance to really learning how to make good music, as it gives you an alternative to either
a) transcribing music on your own
or
b) watching live music and\or learning from other players

IMO youtube can help for some things (like watching really cool master classes that have been posted) but only when combined with actually doing the work yourself.

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

I could be more brilliant than I am now?

Utterly impossible. You are absolute perfection as you is.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by Flanning

If anything, I think youtube is a hindrance to really learning how to make good music, as it gives you an alternative to either
a) transcribing music on your own
or
b) watching live music and\or learning from other players

You like to watch? Yeah, me too.
Bull puckey, IMO, on your hindrance statement. How in the world can you make a statement like that? I use it everyday with or without students. They can listen to and watch Bill Evans, Bird, Scott LaFaro, Red Mitchell....I needn't go on. Have a tune you'd like to learn? Search it. 9 times outta 10, there it is and usually by someone in the original key and with THE definitive version.
IMO, also, transcribing is highly over rated around here.

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

Utterly impossible. You are absolute perfection as you is.

Thanks, Marcus. Great timing.

[JtheJazzMan]

Oh yeh, theres this great channel on youtube called expertvillage, thatll teach you everything you need to know about double bass.....

[Paul Warburton]

Right. You do that and ignore the all amazing and enlightening stuff in there.