Arco tone on a Kay

[moopants]

I am really considering buying a Kay. I've done my homework, and for my limited budget, I believe this may be the best option at least until college is over, or until I raise the funds myself to buy a new bass if needed. I've heard great things about their pizz tones, which is great, but I haven't heard much about arco. I know they're ply basses, but with the right strings, do they sound good enough to play arco on them? I play arco almost more than pizzicato, but I do switch out. Thanks in advance.

[jazzbassnerd]

You're probably not going to win an orchestra job playing on a Kay. I think you'll be fine if you're doing community orch. or various chamber gigs.

If you set if up with some really nice arco strings you should be fine. Mine always had too nasely of strings on it for arco, but some nice dark strings should really do the trick for you.

[mrpc]

Originally Posted by moopants

with the right strings, do they sound good enough to play arco on them? I play arco almost more than pizzicato, but I do switch out. Thanks in advance.

Yes! Don't hesitate.

[Jason Sypher]

It won't be a chocolatey Italian sound but if you are good with a bow you will get a workable sound.

[moopants]

Well, with this in mind, what would be some good arco strings to use with a Kay or any other old ply? I was skeptical to buying a ply, but my budget is limiting me to doing so. But, I refuse to buy a new ply.

[waltzfordebby]

how much do you have to spend? if you're playing arco you might want to take the time to look around for some other instruments

[moopants]

I would if I could, but my budget is low. I'll be lucky to get anything at $1000.

[Mike Goodbar]

I gigged around doing local community orchestra jobs on an Engelhardt (which is basically a Kay) for a few years and never got any complaints (at least not about the sound of the bass).

If you're going to buy a Kay, though, make sure the neck joint is healthy. This is a costly repair and pretty common on the school Kays my students bring through.

[moopants]

Well, since my budget is low now, chances are I'll have to use it for college if I can't raise the money for a good hybrid or carved, which is two years away. I've been in a semi-pro orchestra situation, at least for high schoolers advanced on their instruments. I was using a crappy bass that sounded like the bowels from hell arco, and no one noticed. However, my instructor finally let me use his carved bass, and my tone upped A LOT. The thing is, when my teacher plays the crappy school lam bass, it sounds better than when I play it, and it's actually enjoyable to hear. I've come to the conclusion that your tone, especially arco, sounds from the bass, string choice, possibly posture, arm strength, and your technique. This is why if I did get an old ply, I would get some good arco strings on it, and a new bow. My technique is better a lot better, as I've noticed the school bass is sounding better and better when I play it.

[Silversorcerer]

I'm going out on a limb here and recommend that you look for a hybrid or even an inexpensive carved bass.

Reasoning:

You don't have an unlimited budget.
You play primarily arco or a good portion arco.
Kays usually come with a certain "vintage" mark-up that doesn't necessarily translate to a better arco sound.
Newer plywood is less expensive, but you seem not to want that for some reason.

If you buy a Kay, a portion of your expenditure is for something intangible that has nothing to do with sound and a lot to do with psychology. You need to spend 100% of your budget getting to your sound, which seems to include a fair portion of arco. And with what vintage Kays are going for, you could get a nice hybrid bass with a carved top or even an inexpensive fully carved bass.

In my experience I know two local players here who use Kays professionally. Both basses sound fine in pizz. mode. However even in this mode, they are not as good sounding as a carved bass, IMO. The arco sound is just not there. Particularly compared to anything with a carved top. I have not noticed a great deal of difference in arco performance between hybrids and less expensive carved basses.

Check the carved basses from Gollihur, the Upton Hybrids, Lemur Music selections, and the hybrid Strunals. I use a carved 5 string 4/4 from Gollihur. For the money, that is the best arco tone I can personally endorse. It's not bad pizz. either. Many people here have seen, owned, played the Upton Hawkes hybrid and it gets solid reports. Christopher hybrids that I have seen have very good carved tops and great arco tone. Any of these should be better arco than a Kay and probably not too much more $$.

If you don't mind a compromise on your arco tone, not to mention that there is a world of difference beyond that with a carved top, and you don't mind paying for vintage value, and it is a very, very, very, nice old Kay you are looking at, then get the Kay.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

I'm going out on a limb here and recommend that you look for a hybrid or even an inexpensive carved bass.

Reasoning:

You don't have an unlimited budget.
You play primarily arco or a good portion arco.
Kays usually come with a certain "vintage" mark-up that doesn't necessarily translate to a better arco sound.
Newer plywood is less expensive, but you seem not to want that for some reason.

If you buy a Kay, a portion of your expenditure is for something intangible that has nothing to do with sound and a lot to do with psychology. You need to spend 100% of your budget getting to your sound, which seems to include a fair portion of arco. And with what vintage Kays are going for, you could get a nice hybrid bass with a carved top or even an inexpensive fully carved bass.

In my experience I know two local players here who use Kays professionally. Both basses sound fine in pizz. mode. However even in this mode, they are not as good sounding as a carved bass, IMO. The arco sound is just not there. Particularly compared to anything with a carved top. I have not noticed a great deal of difference in arco performance between hybrids and less expensive carved basses.

Check the carved basses from Gollihur, the Upton Hybrids, Lemur Music selections, and the hybrid Strunals. I use a carved 5 string 4/4 from Gollihur. For the money, that is the best arco tone I can personally endorse. It's not bad pizz. either. Many people here have seen, owned, played the Upton Hawkes hybrid and it gets solid reports. Christopher hybrids that I have seen have very good carved tops and great arco tone. Any of these should be better arco than a Kay and probably not too much more $$.

If you don't mind a compromise on your arco tone, not to mention that there is a world of difference beyond that with a carved top, and you don't mind paying for vintage value, and it is a very, very, very, nice old Kay you are looking at, then get the Kay.

+1

[moopants]

Hmm, well, this might change the thread in another direction, but I was thinking about the Upton lam bass. It would take me a LONG time to raise the money for the hybrid, but I was looking at that for an option. Is the arco tone pleasing on the Hawkes lam? I've seen videos of a guy playing the bass, but only pizz, in fact, I think he's on TalkBass. It sounded GREAT pizzicato. Better than ANY lam bass I've ever heard. It wouldn't take me as long to get the funds for that bass, especially since Eric offered me a great deal on one. But, before I jump the gun and put a payment on it, I'm curious if anyone has experience with these basses using a bow. Of course, if I want to upgrade, I can send the bass back, and buy the hybrid in the future if necessary.

[damonsmith]

I'd look for a carved or hybrid chinese bass.

[RevJPBass]

I've played my '41 Kay for more years than I care to admit. One of my bass teachers was having me do a fairly articulate arco passage and I was really struggling with it. He tried playing the same passage on my bass and couldn't do it either- his comment, oh yeah I guess this bass just won't respond that fast. I finally started playing on a hybrid Eberle, not an expensive bass at all, and it is amazingly different and better. I vote for not getting a Kay and looking for some kind of hybrid or carved that you can afford.....

[moopants]

I think I'll just save up for the Upton Hybrid. It'll take me a long time, but from the things I've heard about it, I'm sure it's worth it.