Banned Again?...

[Eric Hochberg]

So, Ken Smith is banned again from this forum? Come on, guys, I know he rubs some of you the wrong way, but he is one of the more knowledgeable and informative posters here. He's also very entertaining in his abrasive way, kind of like the bass Rickles...

We need experts to balance out the seeming majority of newbees that frequent here to give them good solid answers to their questions. I think you should really work this out or rethink your rules if you have to. I for one will find this forum far less useful without his presence.

[txstatebass]

Just because he plays Tenderly in G? I'm sure the mods have their reasons, but I look forward to the insight Ken always has to offer.

[drurb]

I gather you two missed Ken's short-lived caustic, insulting, and taunting post containing the partially hidden obscenity directed toward the mods. I sure understand why they judged that, on balance, the choice they made was appropriate. I happen to agree.

...and eric, if you have an issue with the mods' decisions, you really ought to take it to them directly.

Rule #5:

If you have a disagreement with a moderator (If your thread gets deleted, if you get a warning, etc.), DO NOT post your complaint publicly on the forums. If you have a problem with a moderator's actions, PM or email the moderator privately. If the moderator's response is unsatisfactory, email the administor (username: Paul).

We take all complaints seriously, but posting your dissatisfaction publicly will result in a rule violation.

[Marcus Johnson]

Musta been a quickie, I missed it too.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by drurb

I gather you two missed Ken's short-lived caustic, insulting, and taunting post containing the partially hidden obscenity directed toward the mods. I sure understand why they judged that, on balance, the choice they made was appropriate. I happen to agree.

I did miss that, but why not just edit out the material that is "inappropriate". The value of his participation is worth more than the negative effect of a little juvenile taunting.

[Nuno A.]

Unfortunately he is banned again yes, and thats very sad because his knowledge is huge and who else in the whole forum has his experience and has played /owned so many great basses?
honestly, i never thought he was rude or something, he just says what he thinks based in his experience.... we are all adults here (or the majority..)
can't we take a different opinion without seeing it like an offense? this is the internet , its not that someone will knock your head with a bat...
giving negative points, yellow cards like in soccer, isn't all this childish?
everytime theres a minimum of "fire" in the forum, the TB police comes and erases , cleans everything, what kind of democracy is that? the forum has rules, but we're not in the kindergarten anymore. was there any wounded people in these "fights" ?
c'mon , if we all agree with the same things, say the same things, believe in the same things, whats the use of this forum?
maybe we need elections and some changes in this forum no more Bush, we need an Obama....

Nuno

[hdiddy]

This forum isn't a democracy, or did you just realize that? It is and has always been a dictatorship though mostly a benevolent one. Certainly, Paul can always take his ball and go home and we'd all be looking for a new place to congregate which can devolve into a mess as well.

People who think they have rights on an internet forum, even if they've paid money, need to friggin wake up. There is no entitlements here. The fortunate thing is that any of us can step out and start our own bass forum, which has happened more than once, but it's usually not the same.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

The value of his participation is worth more than the negative effect of a little juvenile taunting.

Uh-- it was more than "juvenile taunting."

[Rickett Customs]

IBTC

Ken is Ken, that's all.

Don't know him personally, can't tell you his exact mannerisms
But read many of his posts.

[txstatebass]

Yeah, I must have been asleep for that post. Jeez. That's a bummer, but it's not like Ken doesn't have his own forum with which to vent. Must've been one heck of a post though.

[nathanmcnathan]

Too bad he was banned... I found his responses quite helpful in a few posts I made.

[johnfowles]

This is very disappointing. I've only just started posting on this forum and I don't quite get it. It's obvious that someone is upset or jealous. Surely a forum that relies on user integration from those in the know and those who are wanting to know should celebrate the talent and depth of knowledge from such a person.

Disappointing...

[hdiddy]

It wasn't just that post... looks like it's a combination of things. Kinda dumb if you ask me but w/e. Inquiring minds will know where to look. I think I'm going back to lurking myself.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by drurb

...and eric, if you have an issue with the mods' decisions, you really ought to take it to them directly.

Rule #5:

If you have a disagreement with a moderator (If your thread gets deleted, if you get a warning, etc.), DO NOT post your complaint publicly on the forums. If you have a problem with a moderator's actions, PM or email the moderator privately. If the moderator's response is unsatisfactory, email the administor (username: Paul).

We take all complaints seriously, but posting your dissatisfaction publicly will result in a rule violation.

Thanks for the police report, DRURB. The moderators will see this soon enough and I didn't think it right that all of Ken's work here just "go quietly into the night"... Besides, isn't this an interesting discussion?

[Mike Arnopol]

Hey guys, where can I read the post in question? I disagree with Ken sometimes, but I do appreciate his insights.

[Menacewarf]

It would be more intreasting if it included the source of the fallout...

[john turner]

this is a direct, and willful, violation of the usage agreement. please confine inquiries to -what really happened- to private messages.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Sadly, Ken was given a vacation from the forums because he refused abide by the usage agreement, which all members must agree to before signing on. While I agree that his experience and insight will be missed, and am disappointed that things had to end up the way they did, what it came down to in the end was the fact that the same set of rules apply equally to everyone on the forum, no matter what their "status" in the bass world.

When Paul Determan designed and put together the forums, he included a very specific set of rules which are easily accessed from each page. It was Paul's vision to have a site where bass players would discuss issues of interest respectfully, and where commercial interests in the forums were relegated to paid advertising space (details of this issue can also be found in the forum rules under "Commercial User Policy" - essentially a separate and additional set of rules for users who own or operate a commercial bass-related business). Without getting into specific details of what went down in this case, I feel that it wouldn't be giving away anything top secret to say that Ken didn't agree with the forum rules, which over time led to the situation we find ourselves now. It was the feeling of the forum administrators that the rules only have any integrity if they apply equally to everyone, and we stand by this belief. If rules are weighted toward some users that are deemed to be "special" in some way, then they have no meaning and only become divisive rules which set up the "haves" versus the "have nots". This was never Paul's vision for Talkbass, and this is not a road that the admins wish for the forum to travel.

All drama and series of events recounting aside, in the end, the choice to abide or not to abide by the rules of the forum was Ken's, therefore the choice to participate in the forums or not was by extension of the previous choice also his. Again, I am saddened by the form this parting took, and realize that he will be missed. At the same time, the forum is what it is in large part because of Paul's vision, and it is the duty of the moderators to try to keep the site on track with that vision as laid out by the forum rules. It came down to a conflict between a rock and a hard place, and as happens in such a conflict, the rock won.

One last note about the infraction system. Nuno, I once felt as you did about the infraction system, and thought I would never need to use it to keep track of things here in the DB forums. unfortunately, as the site grew I quickly discovered that I was wrong, and that the main difficulty on any site such as this is dealing with the commercial aspect and preventing people in the business from using the forums to generate advertising for their products. It seems that when money is involved, all normal rules of behavior can take a back seat. It is mainly for this reason that the infraction system exists.

I would like to request that we let this issue rest in the open forums. If anyone wants to discuss the shortcomings of Talkbass and its rules, moderators, and administrators, I have a feeling that such a discussion should not be hard to find at other related forums, and that such a discussion will flow freely and unimpeded. I regret any unpleasantness that may have resulted from the recent events on the part of the moderators. We were and are simply trying to do our jobs, and in this case - as with any major forum affecting decisions that need to be made - there was much discussion about the issues involved among the entire moderator/administrator community, and has been for some time. The collective feeling is that the events that unfolded were unfortunate but inevitable, and that the choice was between allowing special status to some members at the expense of others, or simply insisting that all members adhere to the same forum rules. We decided to go with the latter option, and here we are.

Peace,

Chris

[AlphaMale]

I have two citations from Mods. And I think they were in reason. I trust the mods of talk bass. They are pretty reasonable.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

Thanks for the police report, DRURB.

Hardly a police report. Just trying to prevent more loss of civility.