Bass Prices...

[Steelslammer]

A have a few questions that I would like to address.

How do prices for basses get set?

How does insuring an instrument come into play into this. The estimated insurance price. Like do people insure for the cost of the bass or the cost of the bass and looking for a replacement. Does that attribute to the price rising. Someone may think: If my bass is insured for 40 grand it must be worth that.

Do the reputable sellers set the prices or the bass players selling them? There is a conflict of interests somewhere in this.

With the dollar way down and Euro up is this a bad situation for americans to buy basses?

Basses use to be so much cheaper in the 60's 80's even early 90's. But Now they are very expensive. Are all the old instruments gone? Who or what changed the prices so rapidly. you can't say inflation because the change is way to drastic. A great old bass for 20 grand in the 80's is now 80 or 90 or more.

Here is a few.. I have many more....

[bassist14]

ok, lets wait for ken...

[skeptikal]

--edit--

So sorry lol. Wrong forum... I thought that was kind of an odd question for EB!

[Nuno A.]

Originally Posted by skeptikal

Well you really can make an argument for inflation for the simple fact that nothing costs the same as it did 30-40 years ago.

You will see a price hike in European manufactured basses for the simple fact that the Euro is worth a bit more than the dollar right now.

Another contributing factor is that alot of the basses you see here on TB are customized to the buyers specifications. Alot are completely custom. The labor is more now than it was 30-40 years ago as well. They gotta pay someone to make these basses.

Anything else?

Customized Double Basses? sure, set up can be very personal...but... are you sure you're talking about Double Basses and not electric?

Nuno

[arnoldschnitzer]

Prices of student and middle-grade basses are lower than ever (in regard to the value of a dollar), and the choices for decently made instruments in this area are wider than ever as well. Basses on the upper end have been effected mainly by speculators and dealers driving prices up. Now that pedigreed basses are inching toward the prices of violins, lots more people are trying to get in the act, there is competition for these basses, and subsequently "values" are increasing. Makers (like myself) who are building new, handmade basses are simply trying to make a living in an environment where necessities like rent, energy, taxes and health coverage are going through the roof. Importers of European-made instruments are trying not to overwhelm potential buyers with price increases despite the fact that the Euro has nearly doubled in value in the past 7-8 years. There you have it, my 2 cents (current value nil).

[drurb]

As alluded to in Arnold's post, there are really two categories to consider. The collectibles and the others. I won't go near the collectibles. Let's talk about new basses. Among those, let's talk about lower priced and upper priced. In my experience, the prices are set by market forces and desired perception. Arnold already spoke about some of the market forces. I do know that such global market issues were a part of Upton's decision to build their basses in the USA.

The price of basses in that price range (say roughly $1.5 k to $10k) seem very much governed by the usual supply and demand rules and market forces with which most of us are familiar. The "perception" factor comes into play as well. Two makers/dealers may build/import very similar basses for the same cost, yet sell them for two very different prices, based on the maker/dealer's reputation and the perception of level of quality the maker/dealer wants to convey. I know of very specific examples of this but will refrain from mentioning brands. Suffice it to say, you gotta play them and decide for yourself.

Arnold is, not surprisingly, dead-on correct about the relative price of entry-level/intermediate basses. In terms of relative cost, they are lower than ever. We now enjoy a far better selection than we did when I was starting out!

As for higher end new basses, I think similar rules apply with, perhaps, more of the perception factor at play. Two makers may build individual basses selling for upwards of $20k that may differ vastly in quality, etc. Especially in a category like that, you gotta hold 'em, see 'em, and play 'em.

[mesmithnm]

I think Arnold pretty well summed it up - here's an example. I bought my bass (a pretty generic carved German factory bass, 1956, labeled Ottomar Hausman) for $3k in 1980. At that time, that was a pretty average price for this type of bass in good repair. Adjusting just for the cost of inflation, this bass should now cost about $8500, but I don't think there's any way this bass would bring that price and the reason is the competition. When I got this bass, there was no production to speak of from Eastern Europe and there were certainly no quality Chinese factory instruments. Now, we have some pretty good carved Romanian basses that can be had for considerably less than $5k including a good setup and some really good values in Chinese instruments (a nice carved Shen can be had for <$4k). These options did not exist 30 years ago, so Arnold's comment that the entry prices into good starter basses is lower than ever is spot on.

Also, $20K in 1980 is $57k adjusted for inflation so don't count out inflation as a driving factor in the price increases

[MingusAmongUs]

All other things being equal I think inflation plus cost of shipping (not to the customer but, say, from mfr to dealer) alone would come close to explaining the price difference. With the dollar vs Euro (as already mentioned) as well as the price of fuel (what, 4-5x what it was, even when adjusted for inflation, 20-30 years ago?), then the operating cost of the businesses involved (as Arnold mentioned) ain't nothin cheap nowadays.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Steelslammer

A have a few questions that I would like to address.

How do prices for basses get set?

How does insuring an instrument come into play into this. The price estimated insurance price. Like do people insure for the cost of the bass or the cost of the bass and looking for a replacement.

Do the reputable sellers set the prices or the bass players selling them? There is a conflict of interests somewhere in this.

With the dollar way down and Euro up is this a bad situation for americans to buy basses?

Basses use to be so much cheaper in the 60's 80's even early 90's. But Now they are very expensive. Are all the old instruments gone? Who or what changed to prices so rapidly. you can't say inflation because the change is way to drastic. Great bass for 20 grand in the 80's is 80 or 90 now a days.

Here is a few.. I have many more....

Arnold is in this business as deep as it gets and has the most knowledge in this field as far as I am concerned. When I have a question, I even consult him!

Now, for my expanded opinion after Arnolds Post;
Buying out of the US currently is not easy to do price wise due to the weak dollar unless you get a good deal. How do you know a good deal? Well, you may not find one but maybe find a fair deal at best. Again, with the dollar low it's best to buy Basses already here bought at better times.

Next is old Basses;
Some how, Germanic type Shop Bass that used to cost hundreds now cost many many thousands with the better grad instruments from 80-100 years old if good condition and sound good have gone up to the 20k range while others over pay for poor condition common Basses at 6-8k that often need at least that much in professional work.

I have seen newer Basses that sound as good as some of these old shop Basses for the same or less money. Why? Because the old shop basses were mostly made for students. Aging a Bass does not suddenly mean it was made any better. A good example are the blockless wonders that were made to sell for $20-$25 at Sears and today people call them Italian basses because they might be from the Tirol. This is 100% false regardless of sound. Also, we see many old Shop type basses with Juzek and other import labels in them with bassbar and soundpost cracks that are more often then not poorly repaired 'on the cheap'. Correcting some of these repairs if possible will be costly but the damage is still done.

Now, with all this talk about Old German Shop Basses, this inflation just pushes up the prices of the better Basses starting with the better Czech/Germans, then the French and then a big leap to the English and Italians. Today though many of the master grade English Basses surpass the average old Italian short of the master grade Italian Classics. I have heard of 2-3 Basses lest year reaching and topping 500k.

In the 60s-70s, you would not even see 10k on one of these Basses. An old attributed English Bass I know was sold in the early '70s reportedly for $4500. Today that Bass is listed for sale at around 140k and the makers origin has since been discovered as well. Several top English basses in the last 2 years sold for well over this figure but still not reaching 200k. Tomorrow is another day though!

Also, American Cars (sedans) that were $5000 tops back then are now 30-40k on the inside so it's not just Basses. Houses that were 30-40k are now 300-600k depending on the location in this area as well. It seems though that German Shop Basses have risen higher percentage wise than houses or cars. Maybe age has something to do with perceived value. You think?

Oh, and to answer the old Basses gone question I would say they are not as easy to find and when available, the price may be shocking.

[Steelslammer]

Do you see the price rise slowing down? speeding up. Is it now out of the question to buy an old instrument. Does it not make sense.


By the way How much does violin sale prices factor into this?


I have also heard that the old bass prices are determined slightly by the top salary made in the highest paying orchestras.

This seems to be something I am very interested in but can get little information about. I feel that most people don't understand this market when buying an instrument. Especially students.

Thanks to all for replying to my curiosity.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Steelslammer

Do you see the price rise slowing down? speeding up. Is it now out of the question to buy an old instrument. Does it not make sense.


By the way How much does violin sale prices factor into this?


I have also heard that the old bass prices are determined slightly by the top salary made in the highest paying orchestras.

This seems to be something I am very interested in but can get little information about. I feel that most people don't understand this market when buying an instrument. Especially students.

Thanks to all for replying to my curiosity.

Please tell me where you get this information or ideas from. They do not follow what I have seen at all.

I don't see any slow down at all. If anything, prices are on the rise for the better grade stuff.

It is not out of the question to buy an old instrument. The better the instrument, the better the investment if bought properly. Also, there is old and there is old. If you can, tell me what old means to you.

Violin sales may or may not factor in it at all but must somehow. I just can't answer that with any certainty.

Salaries have nothing to do with Bass prices. You can make comparisons but that is not the scale to which is used for making prices. Orchestras, foundations and organizations have been buying instruments as well for years and now they are buying Basses in the upper range when available and when the deals can be made. This is what's driving the prices. The depth of the pockets of the buyers.

Students will rarely have to worry about the upper end market or old pedigree for that matter. They need a Bass to start, a better one to progress, an even better one to turn pro and if in an orchestra, a better one if they get a job. If they make the first chair or two, an instrument might be purchased for them. This is where the big numbers come from. A major symphony shopping at market price thru a major dealer that gets 20-25% commission.

A few years ago a Bass came up for sale on the east coast for a little under 100k. It was offered to me but was out of my range. Then another shop told the seller they could get him much more for that particular Bass but the only difference was the commission. The seller netted about the same but the other dealer made about double the commission. This is something else that drives the retail prices up, commissions. If commissions could be 'capped' at 15% at the most then all prices would be slightly lower.

I know of at least two shops that charge 25% to sell a Bass or Bow. That's a huge amount. If you bought something in the last few years and sell it, you either have to net a loss or the buyer has to pay an inflated price for the item for you to break even.

Many many things factor into the prices of things, not just the Bass or the name or the buyer. It's everything.

Maybe it's like Mutual funds in a way. You have to hold on to it for a long time before you see the gains vs. just inflation.

[bwitzel]

I know that I don't have as much experience in the bass market that some of the other folks on this thread do, but I have spent the past year looking for a new (old) bass and feel like I got a good idea about what was out there, at the time, and how the bass market is going these days.

My personal opinion is buying an old bass for a reasonable price at this time is incredibly difficult. There are many variables at work in the market now (am I'm sure many that I'm not aware of) that have driven up the price of basses. The exchange rate between the euro, pound, and the dollar is one reason. Supply and demand is another reason: you've got a lot of people wanting to buy an old bass and there are only so many out there for sale. So, bass dealers charge more because they know that bass players will pay more to get what they want. Plus, when someone does come along and is willing to pay the price that the dealer is asking (or around the price range I guess), then that only contributes to driving the prices higher because the market has confirmation someone is willing to pay the amount asked for.

The truth is that there are a number of good, old basses out there for sale. I know because I looked around for six months or so and I got to play on basses from $20,000 to $140,000. My only problem with most of the basses that I looked at was either the authenticity was questionable, or the bass didn't sound good enough, or play well enough, for the amount that was being asked for. And if you are going to put down $80,000 to $140,000 it has got to play great and be authenticated. Otherwise, it is questionable if you will get your money back in the future. I would say that is the reason these basses don't sell, or if they do, it takes years, and the seller usually lowers the price until it reaches a price someone is willing to pay for it.

In the end I settled with a modern bass that I feel plays easily, has a nice, big sound, and does the job well in the orchestra and at auditions. Plus I feel it is just as good, or better, than some of the old expensive basses I looked at. My suggestion would be to look for a modern bass, or look at German or French basses around the $20,000 to $30,000 range. These basses haven't really gone up in value much, but they (especially French) tend to be easy to play and a big, clear sound. Basscellar in Cincinnati seems to always have a good supply of these basses.

As far as the insurance question, the insurance appraisal almost always lists the value at 10% more than the amount it is worth. Usually folks tell you that if you are looking at buying an instrument.

Hope that helps!