Beginner Upright Bass Question - Intonation

[AndreyR]

Hi everyone, I'm just starting out on the Upright. I took a free lesson from a local teacher and learned how to stand, basic right & left hand technique, bowing... I am trying to figure out scale fingerings and its going well, but it is hard to have perfect intonation as I need to learn proper finger placement. I think putting a thin line of masking tape or any kind of tape on the fingerboard would help, but then I might get used to looking at the instrument, which is what I don't want. I also read putting white-out dots on the side of the fingerboard would be helpful... Are these good ideas?? Can anyone suggest something (besides taking more lessons, which is obvious)

[brivello]

the most important thing is to play with a bow. It is a lot easier to hear pitches(and make sure you are playing the right ones) when you are playing with a bow.

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by AndreyR

I think putting a thin line of masking tape or any kind of tape on the fingerboard would help, but then I might get used to looking at the instrument, which is what I don't want. I also read putting white-out dots on the side of the fingerboard would be helpful... Are these good ideas?

No.

[Basseroni]

Originally Posted by AndreyR

I think putting a thin line of masking tape or any kind of tape on the fingerboard would help, but then I might get used to looking at the instrument, which is what I don't want. I also read putting white-out dots on the side of the fingerboard would be helpful... Are these good ideas?? Can anyone suggest something (besides taking more lessons, which is obvious)

You're right. You will get used to looking at the fingerboard and it won't do a thing for your intonation. I'm just starting out on upright as well but I do know that developing good intonation has more to do with the utilization of muscle memory than your eyes. It will be a lot more effective to work on intonation using a bow so your ears can confirm how in or out of tune you are. Muscle memory develops from this point as well.

[txstatebass]

Yes, use bow, but play along with records. Try to match pitch. I like symphonies for this as there are long periods of drawn out notes. Just match with it, and try to remember where you are. Your ears are your best teachers.

[unluckymisfit]

its obvious your trying to read standard notation (something I myself can't do) Really, intonation comes with a good ear, so develop that ear. There are websites that help you develop a good ear, so try those.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by unluckymisfit

its obvious your trying to read standard notation (something I myself can't do) Really, intonation comes with a good ear, so develop that ear. There are websites that help you develop a good ear, so try those.

- It is combination of good solid, positions and a good ear. Being able to hear a note is not much help if you have to slide and slop into it, same goes for a text book perfect left hand if you can't hear pitches clearly. So don't try to get by on one over the other, there is no quick fix we are all working on the same thing.
So practice arco with a good teacher.

[uprightben]

Well, I'll probably get flamed, but I think using tape on the fingerboard for beginers is the way to go. When I was learning to be a music teacher i was taught to do it that way, and every music techer I know does it that way. I believe the concept comes from the suzuki method. The basic idea is to put something on the finger board that you can feel to give you a reference in the first couple of positions. You really only need one piece per position, don't put tape on every note. Automotive detailing tape works best. This is really about developing muscle memory faster, so the concept is different from inlay and marks on the side of the finger board. When the tape falls off you don't need it any more.

[jsbarber]

As I see it there is this Yin-Yang thing going on between your left hand (its muscle memory, strength, and flexibility) and your ear's ability to hear pitch. You need to develop both. Your accuracy in your ability to hear pitch will drive the precision of your muscle memory as you practice/play. While using visual aids may help you get your hand to the right spot, you are not coordinating the finger placement with your ear.

When I started out, working out of Simandl, I got a cassette recorder and played the exercises on a keyboard and recorded them. It bothered me to be playing exercises without knowing if I was really in tune or not. I much prefered playing along with the cassettes. Playing with a bow is, IMO, essential. I can't imagine having advanced nearly as well without doing it.

I also recommend the Music-Minus-One version of Simandl's 30 Etudes
http://www.stagepass.com/groupartist...&Invnum=400102
as it has piano accompaniment and piano & bass CDs. (With a Tascam CD-BT1 you can slow down the playing somewhat and it will do pitch adjustment so the tuning stays the same.) Also, Douglas Mapp
http://www.douglasmappmusic.com/
has CD and Midi versions of the piano accompaniments to much of the standard DB repertoire. (Vivaldi, Marcello, Scarlatti Sonatas, etc.) Midi is great because there is no degradation of the quality as the tempo is reduced.

It is also a lot of fun playing along with the accompaniments, sure beats a metronome.

Jim

[MilesC]

I think that pitch is the most important factor in finding the right place to put your fingers down. Don't put finger tapes down. Let your ear be the judge!

[KFrost2008]

If you have a piano available, it is a great source to use to match pitches and to focus your ear...

[CPike]

As a former public school private lesson teacher, I have seen first-hand the kind of difficulties that over-reliance on tapes can cause younger players. So many of them become dependent on their eyes to play in tune - and it's very difficult to break them of that habit.

That said, I'm not categorically opposed to visual aids when learning to play. To me, they are like training wheels on a bicycle. Training wheels teach you very little about the real "essence" of riding a bike - they don't help you turn my leaning into the centrifugal force of a curve, nor do they help you develop balance. Training wheels do, however, keep you from from falling flat on your face as you get used to just "being" on a bike. Tapes on the fingerboard teach you nothing about using your ear to play in tune, but they do help a bit in developing the LH shape and finger spacing - a bit. When I was a kid I had training wheels on my bike for maybe 2 weeks tops - after that you just gotta get used to what the bikes needs you to do.

Use common sense with the tapes, don't keep them on for more than a month or so. Also, I recommend little dot stickers (not white-out!) instead of tapes - it's less unsightly and easier to adjust or replace them if they get out of whack.

Chris

[Will Yager]

I'm not a fan of tape or dots, but start taking lessons regularly and do whatever your teacher says.

[shadygrove]

+1 on practice with the bow. Even if you never, ever plan to play with a bow in public it is great for improving intonation. I thought I would never ever play in public with the bow, but it was only about a month after I got it I started pulling it out for waltz's and slow ballads at my regular celtic jam.

Tapes on the fingerboard teach you nothing about using your ear to play in tune, but they do help a bit in developing the LH shape and finger spacing

I think there is some merit to this "training wheels" approach of having a few visual references while at the same time knowing that listening; checking your position against open strings, harmonics, and hearing scales and intervals is the goal.

A few pencil marks on the side of the neck at the equivalent of the 2nd, 3rd and 5th frets on a bass guitar got me started. The nice thing about pencil is it wears off quickly and in just a few weeks i wasn't bother to replace them anymore.

[Chebass88]

Thanks for the great info - I'm not a beginner, but am returning after 9 years of UB leave. What I wouldn't give for a lined fingerboard! I'm going to try the pencil markings.

W.R.T. intonation, you'll know when your bass is in tune, especially when playing arco. The entire bass vibrates when in tune due to the sympathetic vibrations, which you can definitely feel. For example, the A in half & 1st positions - it should make the open A string vibrate. Conversely, as a quick check, if the string vibrates when the open A is bowed, it is in tune. The same is true for other notes as part of the harmonic overtone series. This is only a cheap way to double check intonation - you can't always bow an open A to get your reference!

imp

[EggyToast]

Originally Posted by shadygrove

A few pencil marks on the side of the neck at the equivalent of the 2nd, 3rd and 5th frets on a bass guitar got me started.

I think this is key. I've got dots on the side of my electric upright, but I can't read music AND look at the dots. But, I can look at the dots to see that I'm at least starting in the right spot.

The best way to get your intonation right, in my opinion, is to use a guide to start -- say, a single piece of tape or a single marking. Then practice your scales. Your ear should tell you if the scale is right, yet the marking gives you a spot to use for telling yourself "no, stupid, you're doing it wrong." That way your ear doesn't learn "wrong," which is infinitely harder to break!

[wdave]

As one who is on sabbatical from 40 years of guitar playing while immersing myself into learning double bass (been at it about 4 months now), I say do not get hooked on looking at the fingerboard while playing. Its a hard habit to break, and break it you must if you are going to get very far. For $129.00 you can get a great computer program for practicing with. Its call Band In A Box. http://www.pgmusic.com/bandbox.htm
You type in your own chords, pick your own key and tempo and style (bluegrass, swing, classical, bebop-whatever). It keeps you in time and in tune (- well, at least you know it when you're out).
I've been plodding through the Simandl book using the program. I just type in a chord progression that fits the melody of the exercise I'm working on and gradually work the tempo up.
There are web sites where you can download (for free) practically all of the jazz standards that work with program. I'd bet that, with a little searching, you can find most any tune somewhere on the net. If not, just type it in yourself.

I'm not advocating use of this program as a substitute for real musicians (which it certainly is not), but for a learning tool, in several ways I think it beats the Abersold play-a longs.
Dave Little

[Andrew McGregor]

Well, I used transparent tape on the LEFT edge of the fingerboard... not to look at, but to give you something to feel. Put it on the far side so you CAN'T see it.

That's only there to start with, because one thing you will soon discover is the correct place to put your finger depends on how loud you're playing. So, leave it there for a month or so and then take it off.

[Adam Gittins]

(All in my opinion, of course)

Don't use tape, pencil marks, white dots or anything else. You'll get hooked on looking at the fingerboard. Even if you never intend to read a note of music, you'll be the guy in the band looking at his instrument while everyone else looks at each other, giving all those great visual signals that help a band mesh (not to mention looking for their friends in the audience or smiling at potential dates!).

Personally, if I'm not reading music, I often close my eyes during practice, just to make sure. That comes in really handy on those very dark stages and dingy clubs. You really don't want LED "fret" markers on your double bass!

Don't worry about accurate intonation higher up the neck early on - get solid in the lower positions first and work up. If you ever want to read stuff, you're going to need to be able to play most normal stuff without looking at the finger board.

I'd advise not "figuring out" scales when you start. Simandl gives you the absolute basics, other texts and tutors will introduce you to all the well known alternatives- then you can figure out your own variations.

Of course, when I played in that Blues Band in the Country and Western club, I'd never have seen that bottle coming my way if I'd been looking at the fingerboard ...........!

Best of luck with a new and exciting world

[bumbleBur2slow]

instead of just using masking tape, which would cause you to look at the instrument, you should try to roll up a peice of masking tape and put it on there, or maybe try taping on a pipe-cleaner. If you put something that you can feel on it, rather than something that you will have to see, then you are less likely to get into the habbit of watching the fingerboard while you play.

I look tend to watch the bass when i play it and i don't know why. If i am looking at music then I don't and I look at the music...but if I'm just playing from memory then I tend to watch my fingers. I can't really get out of that habbit and I can't remember why i got into it.