Beijing Forest Musical Instruments - DB's

[swingingoodtime]

Hi all,

Anyone ever tried one of this company's basses? There's not much on their site (http://cn56141.chinaw3.com/eshow.asp) but they've just started up a presence here in Sydney, Aust.

Supposedly well-regarded & used by some European orchestras (amateurs? pros? not sure); I had a chat with their rep, who said they've sold them mainly in Europe and a few to buyers in the States. She sent me a doc with some of their range. Here's a pic of their flagship:



Purportedly all-solid, fully carved, front is made from 300yo (!!) spruce.

Blurb goes:
"3/4 Double Bass - Forest Classic - 300 year old front.
Front: made out of spruce, and selected from the Chinese
traditional building (used to be the girder of houses) with
300-400 years of history, which is extremely precious in the
world.
Back: made out of maples growing in the Southern part of China,
(Sichuan Province). The materials used have been naturally
seasoned for 20-30 years. Our materials are some of the finest
available in the world today in the construction of stringed
instruments.
Fittings： Rosewood, ebony (carved with decorative designs)
Strings： French professional strings
Bridges: Forest professional seasoned 20 years"

Still trying to find out what fittings would be rosewood; although their lower end basses only talk about ebony fittings.

No idea on price; still trying to find that out too.

Their base model is on Aust eBay at the moment for $2200; I think she said that included shipping as a special introductory offer, but I might have misheard. I'm hoping to try one (ie, drag my teacher along with me) when they land them in the country. Wish they already had them here to try, $2200 for fully carved is pretty damn good if the construction & materials are solid... heck, even with $500 shipping, it's still good...

I'll post a pic of the other models in the next few posts; I think the next model down is prettier than this one, although, this might sound better (assuming all construction techniques being similar).

Incidentally, the rep also said they were planning on improving their website; hope so...

[swingingoodtime]

Here's the next model down...



And no, I'm not affiliated with them. Wish I was, though; I'd get one at cost price...

[swingingoodtime]

Here's the base (5th) model; still carved solid. This is the one on Oz eBay. Not as pretty. Still wish I knew how it played/sounded!

Let me know if anyone wants to see the other 2 (although the backs are both figured, unlike this one which looks pretty utilitarian). I like the shape, though.



Blurb goes:
"Front: made out of solid spruce growing thousands of years, and
selected from the primeval forest in Northwestern China
(Xinjiang Province), which have been naturally seasoned for
20-30 years.
Back: made out of maples growing in the Southern part of China,
(Sichuan Province). The materials used have been naturally
seasoned for 20-30 years. Our materials are some of the finest
available in the world today in the construction of stringed
instruments.
Fittings：Ebony
Strings： Forest professional strings
Bridges: Forest professional seasoned 20 years"

The 2nd & 3rd models also say "French professional strings", although what those are is anyone's guess. I'm doubting brand name, though otherwise they would have mentioned it...

Will post prices if they get back to me, and impressions if we ever get to try one...

[dchan]

I remember there was thread on another Chinese instrument-building firm. They used pretty materials and all that, and their basses looked pretty nice. The problem? They shipped the neck and body separate, and when asked how to attach them, the firm replied that they also shipped a bottle of epoxy with the bass for you to glue it the neck on. That was a total red flag about how they glued the rest of the bass together.

So I'd question the company on how they glued their basses first off. I'm sure there are other questions to be asked, but this one is paramount IMO. Because even if the bass is super-duper cheap at $2200, if they epoxied the whole bass together, it won't be cheap anymore the first time you have to fix your first broken neck joint or body crack.

[hdiddy]

Given that there should be plenty of decent double bass dealers out there who sell chinese makes, I would never buy one sight-unseen unless it was a label you could really trust (to which I think I would only do that with Shen). And even then, when buying in the lower range of prices, I would still want to play it in person first - Shen included.

[Bass]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

...I would never buy one sight-unseen......I would still want to play it in person first..

The OP is hoping to try one when they land them in the country, and drag the teacher along.

[Bijoux]

"Double bass for Female" ???? lol

[Gary Lynch]

Ask the rep if she will guarantee the wood has been aged properly before being used. That's been a problem. Sure, they find good trees, but have they age the wood properly? If not, you will have problems down the road for sure.

[Matthew Tucker]

Paul, I strongly suspect that if it sounds too good to be true, it is.

If the instruments are really fantastic they'll have a higher pricetag. There's not much info on the website or ebay and the pics are too small to show anything. Also,they say the bass has "solid" plates. They could be solid plywood!

However for that sort of price you could be getting a reasonable instrument, if they are well-built. Even if they are built with the best materials, (Chine has lots of nice big old trees to cut down) if they are stuck together with PVA glue (as most cheap chinese basses are) you could be up for an expensive repair bill if the bass ever needs one. Which it will.

Have you been down to Hurstville to visit the shop? Let me know if they get one in. I might go down and check it out.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Bijoux

"Double bass for Female" ???? lol

The bass for female has no neck. So, that is why for smaller progidy. Easy play.

I'm being unkind.

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by Gary Lynch

Ask the rep if she will guarantee the wood has been aged properly before being used. That's been a problem. Sure, they find good trees, but have they age the wood properly? If not, you will have problems down the road for sure.

They've been pretty emphatic that they season their woods well, other than the 300yo ex-girder wood (which I'm assuming is probably ok unless it came from an ex-bath house!). From their blurb, their forest-sourced timber is seasoned for 20-30 yrs, although what exactly constitutes 'naturally', I'm not sure; that could mean it's old deadwood (darned if I know how you'd date how long it's been dead for, though) or collected & then naturally dried as opposed to kiln-dried.

Not that's it's always practised, but the Chinese certainly have a long history of good woodworking when done properly; let's hope this is one of those instances...

I'm trying to track down some user feedback from people who bought from them before; if I'm successful, hopefully this will come to light. Will let you know how it goes.

Re glue (Matt & others): I've no idea; I'll ask. It hadn't occurred to me, so thanks for raising it.

Matt: which shop in Hurstville is that?

[Matthew Tucker]

I thought THIS http://www.hotfrog.com.au/Companies/Forest-Violin must be the place you were referring to where the rep is. I assumed it must be a violin shop? Perhaps not.

The rep won't be able to tell you about what glue is used, and even if they do tell you, how will you know for sure? Same for the 300 year old wood. How will you know for sure that's what they used? How will you know how well it has been seasoned? And if it is what they say it is, why so cheap? Why are the pics so small?

I'd take everything you see on the webpage with a large pinch of salt. If you can get to play one of these yourself, and can check out the workmanship (look inside - neatness, clean, tight gluejoints) and still like what you see and hear, then pay for what you can see and hear, not what it is said about it.

I'm not saying don't buy one. I'm saying be very careful of the stuff you can't see

[LouisF]

They look like the basses on the Yita Music Ebay site. My hunch is a factory is churning these out for various labels. I had one of the Yita basses for a short time as a test - not bad. But I don't know what the long term prognosis would be and I am NOT assuming these (Forest) and Yita are actually the same - just saying they look VERY similar.

The Chinese export trade is hurting in a lot of industries and if these factories have inventory, they could just be dumping the instruments for whatever hard currency they can get - which MIGHT make it a bargain - or might make it a disaster.

But I would say, if the bass is coming to you and you and your teacher can check it out, why not.

Louis

[Jake deVilliers]

Let me say that Matthew's caution is well advised but...we are selling some very inexpensive Chinese basses at Long & McQuade, imported by a local guy, that are lively and resonant and really good bargains.

I have had some bad experiences with green wood in Chinese basses, but the one we have left (its on the rack outside the repair room, nice and handy for playing by the repairman ) survived the wicked dryness of last winter with nary a crack, whereas we had a Gliga top split wide open.

The best thing is to play it before you commit, unless its being built for you by Arnold!

[MIKMAN]

Dealing with Chinese luthiers for some years i have so far mixed feelings. Some of them produce decent, hand made instruments and some of them are responsible for a serious wastage of excellent tonewoods. Their main disadvantage is the ageing of the tonewood, since in many cases the "green' wood was the rule and not the odd case. Only a few reputable luthiers (Samuel Shen is a brilliant example) use old, seasoned wood and hide glue in their products. So, IMHO, try to gather as much information as you can from every possible source and then examine any particular instrument with your luthier or teacher. As Ken Smith once said, maintaining such an instrument is many times more expencive than the purchasing cost. A little caution is advisable in this case.

[draftsmann]

Originally Posted by dchan

I remember there was thread on another Chinese instrument-building firm. They used pretty materials and all that, and their basses looked pretty nice. The problem? They shipped the neck and body separate, and when asked how to attach them, the firm replied that they also shipped a bottle of epoxy with the bass for you to glue it the neck on. That was a total red flag about how they glued the rest of the bass together.

So I'd question the company on how they glued their basses first off. I'm sure there are other questions to be asked, but this one is paramount IMO. Because even if the bass is super-duper cheap at $2200, if they epoxied the whole bass together, it won't be cheap anymore the first time you have to fix your first broken neck joint or body crack.

Indeed yes (I'm sorry, my British reserve won't permit me to type "plus-one" or whatever the forumspeak expression is, but you know what I mean).

I bought a "kit bass" from the "other Chinese instrument-building firm". It looks just as pretty in the flesh/wood, BUT when I quizzed them (after taking delivery - mea culpa) on the glue used they 'fessed up to using epoxy to build the body. Mine's a solid top with ply back and sides, and it lives in a house without central heating in a humid country, all of which may help to postpone the fatal day - but I know that sooner or later someone will be reciting his repertoire of profanities when the top has to come off for some repair.

It's a shame, as otherwise the materials and construction are very good, especially considering the price.

Adrian

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

I thought THIS http://www.hotfrog.com.au/Companies/Forest-Violin must be the place you were referring to where the rep is. I assumed it must be a violin shop? Perhaps not.

Ah; I saw the hotfrog link on Google but didn't bother clicking it. I'm assuming it's likely to be more of an office premise than a shop.

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

The rep won't be able to tell you about what glue is used, and even if they do tell you, how will you know for sure? Same for the 300 year old wood. How will you know for sure that's what they used? How will you know how well it has been seasoned? And if it is what they say it is, why so cheap? Why are the pics so small?

(Re glue) She might, actually; apparently Maolin Song is her dad. As for the other questions; that there are no guarantees about the truthfulness of their marketing is very true, although not necessarily any more or less than many other lesser known/reputed companies. Caveat emptor, but at some point you gotta make a decision (which I acknowledge could just as well be: walk away). Oh, for a crystal ball. Or a million bucks. Either one would do!

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

I'd take everything you see on the webpage with a large pinch of salt. If you can get to play one of these yourself, and can check out the workmanship (look inside - neatness, clean, tight gluejoints) and still like what you see and hear, then pay for what you can see and hear, not what it is said about it.

I'm not saying don't buy one. I'm saying be very careful of the stuff you can't see

I checked that thread. Holy cr@p. (Can I say crap on this foru... never mind. )

Damn good advice, regardless of the seller; that's why I prostrate myself at the feet of your collective knowledge & experience with my newbie questions.

As much as I'm keen to get a bass, I'm also keen to not blow my cash on a piece of crap; made that mistake too many times in my youth. With any luck, I'll keep my head screwed on the right way & keep researching properly up to a good decision (or more to the point: with any luck, my wife will let me buy one to begin with!) Heck, at this rate I'll have both saved a lot & learnt a lot (although will have lost some playing-learning time)

Reviving another topic I raised in a previous thread (related to Chinese basses, before the moderators send me scampering back to said-thread) there's a Melbourne business ("J*******e Strings") selling a brand called Sandner for competitive prices; German company, Chinese made, all-solid, 'hand-carved' for about $2500. I'm assuming there's a degree of QC that the German's want met, so I'd be interested to have a closer look, but of course... they're in Melbourne (that's 850km away, for all international readers...).

*sigh*

[swingingoodtime]

Originally Posted by draftsmann

Indeed yes (I'm sorry, my British reserve won't permit me to type "plus-one" or whatever the forumspeak expression is, but you know what I mean).

I bought a "kit bass" from the "other Chinese instrument-building firm". It looks just as pretty in the flesh/wood, BUT when I quizzed them (after taking delivery - mea culpa) on the glue used they 'fessed up to using epoxy to build the body. Mine's a solid top with ply back and sides, and it lives in a house without central heating in a humid country, all of which may help to postpone the fatal day - but I know that sooner or later someone will be reciting his repertoire of profanities when the top has to come off for some repair.

It's a shame, as otherwise the materials and construction are very good, especially considering the price.

Adrian

Thinking about that, one of my bass players (no, I only use one at a time, before you ask!) has a nice all-solid Chinese bass that she got a few years ago; needed a top-removal (the bass, that is ) & re-glue; sings beautifully now & the woods seem fine. Cost her $$, though.

[draftsmann]

The neck mortise pics in that linked thread made me shudder - in fairness (and in defence of my Chinese bass) it arrived with the neck only partially fitted, and using a block plane, scrapers and sanding block (and much, much patience 'cos I ain't a luthier!) I achieved such a tight dry fit that I could pick up the bass by the neck quite safely. At least that joint is hide glue on mine, by the way

Adrian

[swingingoodtime]

OK, I asked the rep about glue; her response was: "...we use a nice glue fat for cooking imported for double bass which is better than the traditional fish maw because it is stronger but environmentally-friendly".

I asked about the concept of "nice glue fat for cooking" and she came back with this: "...it is a kind of organic glue which is stronger and save for the double bass".

Although her English is passable, I strongly suspect that the language barrier may not be helping here; I'm Chinese (but English-born) & although I know a little Mandarin, I'm not a native-Mandarin speaker & buggered if I know what the technical terms around glues are, so throwing some fairness her way, I'm not convinced the opposite would be any less true for her with respect to English.

At least it doesn't sound much like PVA (duly noting all previous comments about truthfulness in marketing). Looking forward to seeing one up close; Mr Tucker has also expressed some interest in seeing them too, so his opinion & that of my teacher would be the ones that count.

Incidentally, she sent me newer pics of the Class C & D basses (I didn't post the C before). The C has the prettier back. Priced at $3K & $2.5K respectively.

More info as it comes to hand...