brand-awareness

[PsychoScout]

to quote myself:

Is it just my perception, or is there a much higher "brand-awareness" in the US, compared to Europe?
I have no brand-awareness at all (but, this could be due to the fact that I don't know *** about the DB-market)

What do you guys think? Is there a difference between the US DB market and the european market? (or is it just my ignorance playing tricks on me)

[LeslieD]

Good question. I dunno. That's probably best answered by bassists who regularly play on both continents.

I was wondering if SOME of the more recent (i.e. last 10 years) brand-awareness is related to the heaps and heaps of CCBs that get shipped to the US. Or does that stuff also come to Europe by the shipping-container load. (I probably just have this overly-romantic idea that Europeans wouldn't even let crappy basses INTO their countries.)

[longfinger]

I think that in Canada and perhaps the USA, "brand-awareness" is very strong in all avenues of shopping, from clothes, cereals, musical instruments, sporting gear, computers, and electronics, to stores, restaurants, sports teams, TV shows, celebrities and more. It's in the culture, and has been tailored by untold $$$ in marketing. That thinking would just naturally continue in DB shopping as a default, to be overcome by personal experience.

[PsychoScout]

Originally Posted by longfinger

I think that in Canada and perhaps the USA, "brand-awareness" is very strong in all avenues of shopping, from clothes, cereals, musical instruments, sporting gear, computers, and electronics, to stores, restaurants, sports teams, TV shows, celebrities and more. It's in the culture, and has been tailored by untold $$$ in marketing. That thinking would just naturally continue in DB shopping as a default, to be overcome by personal experience.

I don't think you can generalize that. In other domains, europeans are as brand-conscience as north-americans.

However, I don't see any real "brands" in the european DB market. I have the impression that we have a lot of "smaller" DB builders.

Of course, we also get chinese DB's shipped by whole containers, but you don't see that many out there. Even music schools often buy decent european stuff in the lower price range (2000-4000 euro for new czech or italian DB's)

There are also still a lot of old instruments going around, and they're not too expensive. Perhaps the proximity of good luthiers makes it more common to buy old basses?

But this is all just my impression, perhaps the brands known in the US are also known brands for some european DB-players

[LouisF]

In addition to the points above, I also think it's a relatively new (10-15 years maybe) phenomenon. When I was looking for a bass for college (granted Rutherford B Hayes was President), the only "new" bass I think you could buy was a Kay (see the 'opinion' thread). There were German "shop" basses like Wilfers and Juzeks and Morellis, but mostly the options were "old" basses that somebody like a teacher or luthier found for you.

I think that's still predominant in Europe (at least it was in London and in France when I lived in both).

Then the Chinese came to the US and we got Christophers, Eastmans, Shens etc and the marketing began - each trying to carve out a niche - along with the Eastern European basses from big, formerly state run, factories now forced to compete. There was (is) the Chinese marketing against the Chinese phenomenon - (i.e., "we know most Chinese basses are crap, but we {fill in brand name} are different. We make good basses.")

Then, I think in response to the flood of imports, the Americans - from Englehart to Upton to AES etc - started to respond and define themselves against the market.

This (sorry to ramble) probably is more true in the under $10K market. In the higher end market, I think, as instrument prices sky-rocketed, "brand names" on higher end basses were seen as a guarantee of some sort of return on investment - not necessarily on the quality of sound etc.

Just to give a specific example, I played a "Brock" bass in London a couple of years ago, that had been sold at one point as a Maggini. It's probably as good a bass as you will find in London at the moment, but significantly cheaper (don't get me wrong, it's still $50K) than a "real" Maggini would be - but much harder to sell (and resell) because of the lack of brand name.

Again, sorry to ramble, but that's what I think. If the import wave were to hit Europe and the UK - and significantly brought down the price of lower end basses - I think you'd start to see the same thing there.


Louis

[Krispy]

Originally Posted by LouisF

Again, sorry to ramble, but that's what I think.
Louis

Why apologize - it's good stuff for us that don't know any better and appreciate other perspectives. Thanks for rambling.

[PsychoScout]

Originally Posted by Krispy

Why apologize - it's good stuff for us that don't know any better and appreciate other perspectives. Thanks for rambling.

+1

[Bass]

[PsychoScout]

Originally Posted by Bass

why did you do that to your horse?

[Nuno A.]

I cant say that we Europeans are less aware of brands than Americans, the Double Bass world in my opinion is pretty different than the regular electric bass , guitar thing. when i lived in the USA, i played mostly american roots music from the late 20's / 50's era (still do) and so, from talking with different bass players i got aware of Kays, American Standards, Kings, Epis....
In Europe pretty much you got an old bass (German, Czech, Hungarian) pretty much without thinking about the brand, ofcourse that i was aware of old Italians, English, but since these were not really mass produced, these basses were much more special, you talked about an old English, not much of a Tarr, etc.
there werent many chinese basses around, so you pretty much talk more about the country of origin than the brand.

today you have many brands, Chris, Shens, Cremona,and many others, as many as you want since you can get these instruments with your own name, and i guess people start to talk more about double bass brands, while in the past not so much.
Usually, the people who come from the slab side, tend to ask more about brands since the slab is a different beast where you have many different brands....till recently i never heard a jazz or classical double bass player ask what brand of double bass should he bought...

so, i dont think is a european or american thing, nowadays the awereness is more of a global thing, theres the internet and so theres more info.... talking about names, sure the pedigree is nice, but since i start working at Velvet (we are 20 mn away from the Italian border and receive many visits of many Italian bass players from jazz to famous orchestras), i have seen many many old Italian basses that didnt sound nothing special at all and still can be sold for big bucks..... just because they were old and Italian. honestly i would never buy a double bass based on a name...

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by PsychoScout

why did you do that to your horse?

I saw that, Scout.....you finally got it. I was coming in to expalin just when you were writing that post.
Wayta go!

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by LouisF

Then, I think in response to the flood of imports, the Americans - from Englehart to Upton to AES etc - started to respond and define themselves against the market.

I was not aware that AES is a "brand". "AES" is my initials, and AES Fine Instruments is the business name of my full-service shop. Perhaps you are thinking of "New Standard", which is a line of instruments Wil deSola and I import, finish, setup, and sell.

[Grey Dad]

Having lived in both the US (and Canada) and the UK I'd say that in general North America is much more brand conscious than this side of the pond, with a few exceptions. The US is also a much bigger single market so the successful DB companies can become large enough to become "brands" (Kay, American Standard, Englehardt, Upton to name but a few). In Europe, or in the UK at least, it seems to me to be a more exclusive and niche market, mostly served by luthiers or at best small suppliers relatively locally. The biggest brand in the UK for beginner/intermediate DB here is probably Stentor (who are big worldwide interestingly) and to be honest I can't think of another "name" although I am a newbie to this.

I also think double bass is more a part of US *popular* culture (roots, bluegrass, jazz, early rock and roll) than in Europe, where it tends to be associated much more with its classical music origins. Please don't get me wrong here I like classical music too but it's a much smaller audience these days so double bass awareness in the US is across a broader section of the population. All imho, etc and may therefore be complete rubbish

[LouisF]

Sorry, Arnold. No offense meant. I was referring, in that price range, to the "New Standard" brand.

Louis