Brand Newbie with a 1941 Kay M-1

[Texx010]

Greetings everyone. During the last few months I have had the desire to learn the double bass. While I am new to the double bass, I am not new to music. I played trombone in the high school band and also in the local youth symphony. This was from the 70's until I graduated high school in 1982. I am 46 now.

I had some musical skill and ability, and it is my regret that I didn't stick with music after graduating. I still remember most everything about sight reading bass clef. I could keep time and had perfect pitch to a degree, as I could tell you what note was being played without looking, and I could hum whatever note you requested from memory. In the youth symphony we even had a few trombone parts which were in tenor or alto clef. I adapted.

My point here is that in taking up the double bass, the "reading music" part of the learning curve is fairly complete.

I have been reading the various forums and websites to learn what I can about the instrument. That being said, I must admit that I violated some advice I have seen given to others when purchasing their first double bass. Yes my friends, I purchased a 1941 Kay M-1 bass off of eBay! I can sense some of you cringing now!

The bass belonged to the seller's father who used it to play in big band and swing bands. His father passed away in 1993. He isn't a musician himself. He was selling the bass because he was getting married and needed the money. He originally asked $3000. From what I have researched on the net, that isn't a bad price when the economy is doing good. But these are tougher times. I paid $1500 which seems about average in these economic conditions. I live next to Louisville, Kentucky. He lives in Detroit. He asked me how I wanted for him to ship the bass. I opted to drive up on a Sunday and pick it up myself.

So I did. I drove up. He also threw in a bow and a music book for the bass along with a padded case. The bow has an end missing that he couldn't find. I didn't quibble about that because the bow was an extra thrown in. He also recently put on new metal strings. He didn't know what exact kind they were. Remember that he is not a musician himself.

He also indicated that the bass had a marble or something rolling around inside. He is no bass expert, and neither am I, though I am learning bit by bit. After I got home I looked inside through the f-holes and saw that it was a piece of wood rolling around. What was that? - I wondered. Yes indeed, the sound post! Does this sound like the blind leading the blind? :P

So was this bass a good buy for the money? I won't know before I get it checked out. From reading the board I can see that my next step is to get it checked out, set up, and get the sound post put back in place! I should note that the bridge is off, and thus the strings are currently loose. I have learned that it is a no-no to tighten the strings with no sound post in place.

So then, who to take it to? Is there a good bass luthier in the Louisville area? Someone on here who was selling a 1952 Epiphone from this area had his fixed at First Quality Music in Louisville. Anyone had any experience with them? I have seen others here recommend either Nick Lloyd in Cincinnati, or the Cincinnati Bass Cellar. So if I go to Cincinnati, which place? Indianapolis and Nashville are also viable options.

After that, I will take lessons. Who should I contact in the Louisville area about lessons? My goals? I prefer to learn jazz, to pluck the bass. But I am a strong believer in learning the correct way, and I have read that one should begin by learning with the bow aka classical music and so forth. And that is fine and dandy, as I have played in a youth symphony before, years ago.

I have included photos of the bass below, and will upload more photos as followup replies. Can my bow be fixed?

[Texx010]

Hmmm. I had uploaded 2 photos in the original note, yet only one showed up.

[tomshepp]

Looks a lot like mine. Sounds like you know what to do. Since I'm from Boston, and can't help with who to take it to, I'll just say enjoy your new bass.

[Texx010]

Let's try it this way.

[Andrew McGregor]

Well, I know nothing about Kays or people you could take it to... but, congratulations, you have a bass!

Finding a teacher should be a bit of a priority too. One, they'll be able to help find someone to work on it, and two, technique really matters with this instrument, because you can injure yourself badly with poor technique. Hand and back injuries suck, so don't let that happen.

As for learning classical first... not necessarily, I suppose, but do learn the bow because it will give you access to a bunch more options musically, and it's the best way to really learn how to play in tune (since a pizz note decays pretty quickly, you can't sit there for a couple of minutes listening to it). Note that there's two kinds of bows, French and German, and endless debates over which is better... the correct answer is 'neither, in the long run, but different things are easier at the beginning'.

[Texx010]

I have an appointment next week with Nick Lloyd Basses to have my bass checked out and set up.

[tomshepp]

Originally Posted by Texx010

I have an appointment next week with Nick Lloyd Basses to have my bass checked out and set up.

Good move. He will get it playing and sounding its best. Report back when you get it back.

[Texx010]

Hey everyone. I thought I'd give everyone an update. I took the bass to Nick Lloyd Basses in Cincinnati. He is doing a full setup which includes a new endpin, tailgut assembly, soundpost, and bridge with adjusters.

He is also putting a pickup on the bridge. I had my choice to go with a less expensive bridge with no pickup for around $400 or a better bridge with pickup for $600. I said I wanted to do it right and do it complete, so I went with the better bridge and pickup.

He is also replacing the strings. Even though the bass came with new strings, those strings were cheapies. He is putting on D'Addario Helicore Hybrid strings.

The fingerboard is rosewood, and he said that the rosewood used when my bass was built is better than most rosewood used today. There is some slight grooving on the fingerboard. He won't know if it needs to be planed until he puts on the strings to see if there is any buzzing.

He asked me what style of bass I'd be learning, and I told him that jazz and pizz playing is my main interest, I also believe in learning to play the right way, and from what I have read, when one learns to play the double bass, it is best to start learning with a bow. So that is what I will do.

The broken bow that came with my bass has a split in the wood and would cost more to repair than replace, so I am purchasing a new carbon fiber bow from him for $195. He has the same bow in both French and German styles.

He said the bass is in great condition overall based on its age. No history of neck breaks, no broken or missing tuner pegs, no body damage, and not too many nicks and scratches. The total cost for everything will be around $935 if the fingerboard doesn't need planing and around $1220 if it does need to be planed.

So then, would I have been better off had I purchased a bass that was already set up instead of from eBay? Perhaps. But the way I see it is this. The bass is in very good shape structurally and bodywise. It needs a good setup, and then it should play and sound stellar. I am excited to get this bass totally up to snuff and to get some good use from it.

The seller hated to part with it because it was his dad's and wanted to keep it in the family. He sold it because he was getting married and needed the money. The bass wasn't being played at all and hadn't been played for years considering that his dad passed away in 1993. After this setup I will have spent a total of around $2800 for everything. When I picked up the bass, the seller told me that some friends of his said to him "You are crazy selling it that cheap ($1500). That guy will probably turn around and sell it for $4000." I told him no way, that I intended to learn and play the bass.

Nick Lloyd is a busy man, so it will be late January before my bass is ready. I have read only good things about him on this board, so it is only logical that he has a lot of business. He had an assistant with him working on another bass while I was there, and they both said that they are quite happy that I am taking up the double bass even at my old age. I played trombone in both band and in the youth symphony while in school so many years ago, so I can read music. The double bass has no frets which means that one must learn exactly where to place the fingers for each note. The trombone has no valves, so one must learn exactly where to stop the slide for each note. Hopefully my past musical knowledge will help in learning the double bass.

So my next step is to find a teacher in the Louisville, Kentucky area. I am in Clarksville, Indiana which borders Louisville, Kentucky. Do any of you from this area know of any good teachers I can take lessons from?

Greg

[tomshepp]

Hey Greg,
Seems like your doin' the right things. The $ you have into it is in line with what Kays sell for from Fretwell etc. You bass looks to be in excellent shape. The fact that you intend to play it and not just flip it is the right thing as well. Enjoy the ride and welcome to the dark side.

[mesmithnm]

Originally Posted by Texx010

So my next step is to find a teacher in the Louisville, Kentucky area. I am in Clarksville, Indiana which borders Louisville, Kentucky. Do any of you from this area know of any good teachers I can take lessons from?

Greg

Our own Chris Fitzgerald (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/member.php?u=11080) is on faculty at the UofL and would most likely be a great resource to get you in touch with a local teacher - try sending him a PM

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Texx010

So then, would I have been better off had I purchased a bass that was already set up instead of from eBay?

Many people swear by Kays and I imagine you will become one of them. You probably could have purchased a Shen SB80 from Nick Lloyd or Bass Cellar for $1600 or so, completely setup, and without the risk. You lucked into a solid bass, but are paying a premium due to setup needs. That said, when the economy improves I would guess that you could get your money back if you decide to sell as Kays have a good following.

[Texx010]

Selling this bass is not on my radar at all anytime soon. The fact that the bass is a Kay did indeed influence my decision to place a bid on the bass to begin with. As for a teacher, I sent a message to Chris Fitzgerald yesterday. He has replied with a suggestion who I will soon be calling.

[Standalone]

Makes me miss my '41 Kay Orchestra, no matter how much of a beater it was...

[MollyKay]

Congratulations on your new/old Kay. It looks to be in very good condition for a 1942. Taking it to Nnick is a good move; he will get it in tip top playing condition. As far as your investment that has to be something you commit to…and live with. I am very partial to the vintage plywood bass (shocking, I know) verse a new plywood bass…but that is MY preference and my opinion.

Vintage to me is a better long term bang for your buck and playing pleasure. The bass has aged, the wood is dry, it has character marks and the voice of the bass is established…in other words you know what you are getting. And in most cases a well maintained, good sounding Kay with the factory finish will maintain its value or increase. James Condino put it so beautifully…a vintage, original condition Kay goes up in value every time someone destroys an old one with shoddy repairs or changing the original finish. A really killer sounding Kay that turns heads will always have value as a workhorse of an instrument for a musician and a collectable for the rest of us. There is less and less of these original condition basses as each year passes.

A new bass…is a new bass…anyone can go buy one off the showroom floor. There is not much mystery or seduction about a new shiny manufactured bass. They tend to look similar, the wood is newer then 70 years old, the voice needs to develop and you have to make the first boo-boo by scratching it or knocking through a door way. They tend to depreciate after the first gig.

Buying a vintage bass that needs repairs and then paying a luthier for quality repairs is more expensive then buying brand new…back to my original point. Make the decision, commit to it and enjoy. Buyer’s remorse consumes too much emotion that you can put into enjoying that vintage vibe.

Enjoy your bass and make some wonderful music!

[Texx010]

Hello Molly. Oh I do intend to enjoy my bass to the max! If I sounded like I had buyer's remorse, actually the opposite is true. It is natural to want to get the best possible deal moneywise. But I view my bass as a win-win situation for everybody. The seller was great to deal with, and I'd buy from him again. I gave him a good review on eBay, as this was his first ever sale there. I got the bass for half of his original asking bid, and he got some much needed money for his upcoming wedding. The bass is being set up by an expert luthier, and it will be put to some good playing use once the setup is complete. Otherwise it would have continued to sit in the seller's closet unplayed as it had been for years.

If I do have any possible buyer's remorse, it isn't in any way related to my Kay bass at all. You see, there was another bass for sale here last spring and summer, a 1950's Epiphone B-4. Molly, I have seen your Epiphone page, so I know how much you love these basses. The bass for sale then was in this thread:

Early 50's Epiphone Upright American Bass for sale!!

The original asking price was $2500. He also listed it on Craigslist with photos. I kept my eye on this listing for a few months as he lowered the price. Once it hit $1500 on his Craigslist posting, I went to First Quality Music where it was on consignment to check it out. Too late, it was sold and gone!

The store had a brand new Engelhart bass on display for $1800 or so. But as someone else pointed out on this board, it seems that so many for sale ads for basses are for Engelharts. They may be good basses for their price, but they don't hold their value. I am quite pleased with my Kay so far.

When the seller asked me how I wanted for him to ship my bass, I saw your recommendations for u-Ship. But I decided to drive from here to Detroit, a 6 1/2 hour drive, and pick it up myself. I made the trip on a Sunday. And it was fine, as I don't mind long drives and road trips at all.

I have received a few recommendations for a teacher which I am following up on. Now I await my completed and set up bass.

[Texx010]

Hello all. Here is the latest news.

I received a call from Nick Lloyd on Wednesday the 19th. He has begun working on my bass. He said that it should be completed in early February which is about two weeks away.

On Tuesday, the day before he called, I received my new Hercules DS590B double bass stand that I ordered from Brooks Mays online.

I have also found a teacher after having received a few different recommendations and contacting each one. He plays bass in the Louisville Orchestra and can teach with either a French or a German bow.

[ThumpPlunkJunk]

Originally Posted by Texx010

Hello all. Here is the latest news.

I received a call from Nick Lloyd on Wednesday the 19th. He has begun working on my bass. He said that it should be completed in early February which is about two weeks away.

On Tuesday, the day before he called, I received my new Hercules DS590B double bass stand that I ordered from Brooks Mays online.

I have also found a teacher after having received a few different recommendations and contacting each one. He plays bass in the Louisville Orchestra and can teach with either a French or a German bow.

I really admire the fact that you're willing to take on an entire new and foreign instrument, firstly. It's not an easy thing to do but you seem very adamant and very committed to it, so good luck on your lessons.

Secondly, I want a Kay so badly! We had an old Engelhardt and a Kay in my middle school, so when I think about how beat up both of them were (the school actually got rid of the Kay when I was in 8th grade, though then I had no idea what we had--I just called it "Spike" because its endpin was just a big metal spike), I wish I could have saved at least one of them. I used to play the Kay, even though the other bassists played the newer instruments and I loved the feel of it--though it looked as if somebody had slapped it around far too many times than it deserved.

And thirdly, try playing both French and German for a while. It's what I did. I played with a French bow for six years--I made the switch to German last year because my orchestra director in school told me I had "German-bow hands". She's not a bassist at all and didn't even know how to hold the German bow, but it's worked out pretty well for me. I'm the only German-bow bassist in the orchestra now, which is sort of nice because we've got about seven really, really old German bows people donate to the school every year and the director just tosses on the bass racks. Some of them are nice, others are trashed but hey--it's diversity.

Let us know how it goes!

-Thump

[Jim S]

Congrats on your new 1941 Kay. I also have a 1941 Kay. Bought mine about two years ago for $300. I think it had been thru a rather significant weather event because it was delaminating badly. Had to scrape mud out of the inside to find the serial number. The front is warped, the sound post is nailed in place and it still sounds great. I also started with Helicore Hybrid strings, but just now changed to silver slaps. They sound just as good and are easier to play--at least for bluegrass.
You live in Kentucky? I went to college in Berea briefly--but got drafted into the Army before I graduated. Lots of good music down there.

[Texx010]

Actually I live in southern Indiana which borders Louisville. We have the Louisville Orchestra here. I went to one of their performances on January 15 and had a front row center seat.

I received a call from Nick Lloyd today. I am picking up my bass next Saturday morning, February 5. He will have it finished up by then. =)

[Stev187]

Originally Posted by Texx010

He is putting on D'Addario Helicore Hybrid strings.

This has been a fun thread to read. Congrats on the bass. Also, I've had a set of these strings on my bass for much longer than most people think you should keep them... they still sound and play great.

--Steve