Buying late 1800's "Czech" bass, seeking input

[crowsmengegus]

Long time lurker and a bit of a newbie here seeking tbdb wisdom. I've got the opportunity to buy a "Czechoslovakian" flatback bass from circa 1880 for under $3000. I had my luthier look at it. It has a cracked bottom block and needs a new fingerboard (has an old maple fingerboard on it right now for some reason). Also, the neck angle is shallow, but I've been told this can be corrected with the new fingerboard by shimming it up. Otherwise everything looks good (no cracks or bad neck repairs, etc). The estimate is about 2k in repairs.

So about 5k later, I have a seasoned old instrument, which I presume will be worth 5k or hopefully even a little more. I trust my luthier here, and he seems pretty neutral on the value of the purchase. I'm curious as to whether anyone has owned/played many late 1800's czech/bohemian basses, fixed them up, etc. and what your experiences have been?

Are there real duds lurking in that era of basses? Do these things sell very well? Should I take the plunge? Anything I should look out for? Moneypit?

Thanks! I've attached pics from the seller.

Rob in Minneapolis, MN

[wayne holmes]

In my opinion, you have a good find----is it a 7/8? I have several old German/Czechs about that age. Is it a 43 and 1/2 inch from nut to bridge? It reminds me of a 7/8 German that I restored. It was my first complete restoration on a carved bass. I had completely restored two plywoods before. I'll just tell you the mistakes that I made and the good decisions that luckily made since I wasn't that experienced with restorations. I would not have removed the varnish and refinished it- I would have French polished it. I think that refinishing an old instrument does have an effect on the sound for some time. This instrument, which sounded great, but I had to work hard to get the good sound out. However, I put a high saddle on it , taking some of the pressure off the top, and whatever else a high saddle does(brings out the low strings more perhaps), and the high saddle made a big difference in the playing , and helped regain some of the sound(richness in particular) that the new varnish took away. With reqret, I often wonder what it would sound like with the high saddle and no refinishing. I also installed a T-nut on it to bring the string length to 42 inches. Overall it is much easier to play and the sound is as good as before the restoration. A former owner played it after I restored it(DB teacher) and he thought it was easier to play and that it sounded better. As for the price, It sounds very reasonable. In my opinion, if it's a 7/8, the price is more than reasonable in your favor. My experience has been that there is a big difference in what we think a bass is worth, and what others will actually pay for it. Anyway, if you don't end up with more than $5000 in it, you should be okay, since it sounds like it is in fairly good condition and from the pictures it looks like you have come across a good buy. Good luck.

[uprightbass.com]

Since I'm a musician and not a collector, the important questions are: How does it sound? How does it feel?

[crowsmengegus]

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

In my opinion, you have a good find----is it a 7/8? I have several old German/Czechs about that age. Is it a 43 and 1/2 inch from nut to bridge? It reminds me of a 7/8 German that I restored.....

Hi Wayne, thanks for the input. I don't know the string length exactly, but it's definitely a 3/4 size.

I won't be refinishing the bass (I'm curious why you decided to do that, was the finish in really terrible shape? Is this a common thing to do?) Also, I'm not an expert, but it seems to me that a higher saddle takes pressure off the top, and I think that I want to actually increase the pressure (by increasing the neck angle). I've been told that this will make the instrument louder, which makes sense to me physics-wise. Why did you go with a higher saddle?

Again, thanks for the info,

Rob

[crowsmengegus]

Originally Posted by uprightbass.com

Since I'm a musician and not a collector, the important questions are: How does it sound? How does it feel?

You are exactly right, and I'm not a collector either, although 2 basses in a little apartment might make my wife feel like I'm turning the place into a bass museum. Unfortunately, since the bass is not set-up in an ideal way, it's hard (for me) to determine its potential until after I've already sunk a bunch of money into it. That's why I'm fishing for general opinions on how big of a gamble I might be making.

[uprightbass.com]

Originally Posted by crowsmengegus

You are exactly right, and I'm not a collector either, although 2 basses in a little apartment might make my wife feel like I'm turning the place into a bass museum. Unfortunately, since the bass is not set-up in an ideal way, it's hard (for me) to determine its potential until after I've already sunk a bunch of money into it. That's why I'm fishing for general opinions on how big of a gamble I might be making.

I've been through too many fixer upper potential basses that I've become jaded about the whole "diamond in the rough" thing. I look at it this way: it took trying 50 good condition basses to find the one that I had to have. The odds of a rough bass not turning into a money pit doesn't seem good. And for it to be something I'd want to keep seems even more remote. But that's me.

Sometimes even with rough basses, you can hear something about it that makes it seem promising. Anything less than that I wouldn't bother putting money into it. Again, that's just me.

[Carl Johnson]

I did the same thing; I had an old flatback and had it fixed up. All told it cost about what you’re talking about. Right now it’s my main axe, very musical and since it’s on the small side easy to get around. That said, it was a risk, there’s no way to know how it would end up. I’ve played some not so great rehab’ed older basses.
With today’s market being what it is, I don’t think I’d do it again. There are too many good healthy basses, old and new, in that price range.

[Jason Sypher]

The photos are not great but you can't really go wrong if you have a written estimate for those repairs. 5K is at least 3K under value, at least.

[Eric Swanson]

If I were you, I would go to Ken Smith's site and ask for his 2c.

He seems to know quite a bit about these Germanic instruments.

What did your luthier say, regarding quality, design, construction, etc.?

[MR PC]

If you are worried about the resale value of the bass, I'd be sure to skip putting a shim under the new fingerboard. Why wouldn't your luthier set the neck angle correctly if you are going to the trouble of puting a new board on? Sooner or later somebody will need to set the neck angle the right way.

There are plenty of these sort basses around at good prices that have had all the repairs and set up issues attended too.

Can you barter with the seller? I think 3k is to much to shell out for an ailing instrument like this, unless you love the way it sounds and feels before the needed repairs.

[crowsmengegus]

Originally Posted by Eric Swanson

If I were you, I would go to Ken Smith's site and ask for his 2c.

He seems to know quite a bit about these Germanic instruments.

What did your luthier say, regarding quality, design, construction, etc.?

Okay, I can do that.

My luthier was pretty positive about the overall construction and quality. According to him it is a classic example of a late 1800's Bohemian, and besides the crack in the bottom block (which is not yet showing structural problems, and apparently doesn't need to be fixed right away) and the junky fingerboard it's in good shape. He also says that many of these basses can turn out to be nice orchestra basses, which is what I'm hoping for. Overall he seems to think it has the potential to be worthwhile purchase, and I trust his opinion. I'm sure he could say more specific things about it, but that's what I gleaned from my conversation with him.

[crowsmengegus]

Originally Posted by MR PC

If you are worried about the resale value of the bass, I'd be sure to skip putting a shim under the new fingerboard. Why wouldn't your luthier set the neck angle correctly if you are going to the trouble of puting a new board on? Sooner or later somebody will need to set the neck angle the right way.

I got the impression from the conversation with my luthier that a neck reset would be much more involved and pretty much accomplish the same thing. Perhaps I misunderstood? Is a shim under the fingerboard considered a short-cut repair?

[MR PC]

It's cheaper to shim it while replacing the board up than set the neck angle. On my own basses, I'd consider it a short cut repair. Remember, the shim will add depth to the profile of the neck as well. You may or may not like that.

Of course, I'm not a luthier, and maybe there are some situations where the shim is the way to go.

[Eric Hochberg]

I've restored a similar bass to yours. I got it because I was attracted to the sound. Playability has been harder to come by although I'm real close now, after 3 years of fooling around. The new fingerboard made a huge difference. My bass has a lower overstand of 3/4" and a bridge height of 6 3/8" after the fingerboard was put on. You can shim the neck to raise the bridge height, but you'll be creating a thicker, fatter neck (unless you remove wood from the neck itself) and you want to make sure you can handle that. A new board will also add height as it's thicker than the old one. To get the neck brought out will probably run you $1-1.5k or more, depending on your luthier, more costly but the correct way to do this. Also, a greater angle over the bridge will add string tension and the bass may play differently than it does now.

How high is the overstand? Also, I wouldn't put a lot of money into this bass if it has a long string length, say over 42 1/4. The market is weaker for large basses and you would have a harder time selling and maybe playing it. There are inexpensive fixes for this if you have to shorten by less than an inch or so to get to a reasonable SL (42").

All that being said, if you love the sound and feel now, it will probably only get better with the work and would probably be worth the investment. But, if you're not sure about one or both of these factors, I think I would pass as that makes it a more of a risk than it may be worth in the end.

[MR PC]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

The new fingerboard made a huge difference. My bass has a lower overstand of 3/4" and a bridge height of 6 3/8" after the fingerboard was put on. You can shim the neck to raise the bridge height, but you'll be creating a thicker, fatter neck (unless you remove wood from the neck itself) and you want to make sure you can handle that. A new board will also add height as it's thicker than the old one. To get the neck brought out will probably run you $1-1.5k or more, depending on your luthier, more costly but the correct way to do this. Also, a greater angle over the bridge will add string tension and the bass may play differently than it does now.

Couldn't of said it better!

[bejoyous]

Since you live in Minneapolis, it would be a good idea to ask the bass players there to look at your bass.

[crowsmengegus]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

I've restored a similar bass to yours. I got it because I was attracted to the sound. Playability has been harder to come by although I'm real close now, after 3 years of fooling around. The new fingerboard made a huge difference. My bass has a lower overstand of 3/4" and a bridge height of 6 3/8" after the fingerboard was put on. You can shim the neck to raise the bridge height, but you'll be creating a thicker, fatter neck (unless you remove wood from the neck itself) and you want to make sure you can handle that. A new board will also add height as it's thicker than the old one. To get the neck brought out will probably run you $1-1.5k or more, depending on your luthier, more costly but the correct way to do this. Also, a greater angle over the bridge will add string tension and the bass may play differently than it does now.

How high is the overstand? Also, I wouldn't put a lot of money into this bass if it has a long string length, say over 42 1/4. The market is weaker for large basses and you would have a harder time selling and maybe playing it. There are inexpensive fixes for this if you have to shorten by less than an inch or so to get to a reasonable SL (42").

All that being said, if you love the sound and feel now, it will probably only get better with the work and would probably be worth the investment. But, if you're not sure about one or both of these factors, I think I would pass as that makes it a more of a risk than it may be worth in the end.

Sage advice, thanks very much! I'm pretty positive the scale length is less than 42". I think I would notice if it were longer than that, but I'm not sure. I didn't measure the overstand, but I'll take a look and see how it compares to your measurements.

Let me make sure I get you straight: you have a low overstand (3/4") but you haven't moved the neck, you've just replaced the fingerboard and that was sufficient to increase the bridge angle enough to make the difference? I admit I don't really like the idea of a neck that's a lot fatter at the bottom, but if a new fingerboard did it for you, maybe that will do it for me too.

Again, thanks! I'll reward everyone with some nice pictures if I go through with it, since it would be too hard for me to buy everybody in the thread a beer....

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by crowsmengegus

Let me make sure I get you straight: you have a low overstand (3/4") but you haven't moved the neck, you've just replaced the fingerboard and that was sufficient to increase the bridge angle enough to make the difference? I admit I don't really like the idea of a neck that's a lot fatter at the bottom, but if a new fingerboard did it for you, maybe that will do it for me too.

No, I haven't brought out the neck, yet. I don't think I need to as the bass is working pretty well now. But, the bridge angle didn't change on the bass with the new fingerboard, as the bridge also got higher as the fingerboard got higher. The angle is constant in this case. If you were to put in a wedge shaped shim before the fingerboard, then the angle will change. I think the new fingerboard's added mass made the neck stiffer and that might have helped the response of the bass. The new board is dressed with less scoop and is easier playing for this reason, too. The bass is also brighter sounding now. I loved the darker sound before the new board, but it still sounds great. It's all a mystery and every little thing you do can have an unexpected result, or not. That's why if you can find a bass you love just the way it is, you might save yourself some grief!

[wayne holmes]

Originally Posted by crowsmengegus

Hi Wayne, thanks for the input. I don't know the string length exactly, but it's definitely a 3/4 size.

I won't be refinishing the bass (I'm curious why you decided to do that, was the finish in really terrible shape? Is this a common thing to do?) Also, I'm not an expert, but it seems to me that a higher saddle takes pressure off the top, and I think that I want to actually increase the pressure (by increasing the neck angle). I've been told that this will make the instrument louder, which makes sense to me physics-wise. Why did you go with a higher saddle?

Again, thanks for the info,

Rob

You're welcome Rob-my pleasure-you are wise to ask such good questions and you are getting some good input.
On my bass, I wouldn't say that the finish was in "terrible shape"--it had a few attempts with stain over stain to make it look better, but it didn't. It also had some bare spots. This bass has a very good sound, and I just wanted it to look good, as well. To be honest, I redid the finish at least four times, and ended up doing the top a 5th time. Like I said, it was my first carved restoration.(maybe I should send a picture---later.) "common thing to do-refinish" In my opinion I would never again refinish an old bass unless someone has already done it and made a big mess of it. If the original finish is on it, then either touch up and polish the heck out of it, or French polish it. ***This is my experience and opinion, but please get some more on the finishing- before you decide.
I have come to firmly believe in Pretty is as Pretty sounds.

Higher saddle- After I restored the top, which had cracks everywhere except sound post and bassbar(btw-these cracks can be a real consideration if they are present. If your bass has sound post and/or bass bar cracks, I would get them fixed as part of the work to get the bass playable) On my bass I installed an inlaid patch about the size of a goose egg-big goose egg-to add support to the top where the bridge feet had almost wore its way through the top plate. This and other patches, some inlaid, some not, made the bass tight. My main goal with the high saddle was to help the bass vibrate more. High saddles are not for every bass. My bass also needed the E and A to come out more and moving the sound post toward them didn't do it, but the high saddle did. I am no expert on high saddles. Hopefully, you will get some more info. My guess is that it would not hurt to try it- I would stay away from putting a shim under the board - if you install a new board, the thickness of the bd will help the height a little. Back to the price- since it is a 3/4-the price of $3000 may be a little high since it needs a lot of work- usually old Germans/Czechs sell in good playable condition for $3500 to $7000 tops-(my experience - my opinion)Good luck

[crowsmengegus]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

No, I haven't brought out the neck, yet. I don't think I need to as the bass is working pretty well now. But, the bridge angle didn't change on the bass with the new fingerboard....

Okay, I understand now. It's interesting how these changes can produce such unexpected results! I recently got a C extension (a fingered one, very minimal hardware) on my current bass and I swear my A string has opened up dramatically. Go figure.

Anyway, why save myself grief when I can have an expensive adventure with a mysterious old instrument?