Can anyone help me identify this?

[lanretsr]

I've had this Bass in my attic now for about 50 years. It used to be my Grandfathers. All I know about it is that its a 3/4 double bass and at least 60 years old as he got it while he was in High School. Could anyone id it? From what I read on the forum him it seems to be hard to tell. Is it still any good or worth anything? Thanks for any help guys
The photo can be seen at my webshots account here
http://community.webshots.com/album/...host=community

[Cyrus Pansch]

Looks like an old S Model type Kay with the inletting purfling around the F holes & the ebony horseshoe into the button of the neck - otherwise known as a Swingmaster, Supreme, Slapmaster or Slap Pro bass. The tunners are also a dead on Kay match.

Checkout http://www.kaybass.com for more info!

[fdeck]

It's worth... playing.

Kay basses are perfectly respectable entry-level instruments. It's a really nice find. Now for a suggestion...

Do not attempt to string up this bass or play it until you confirm that the sound post is standing up, the bass bar is intact and attached, the neck joint intact, and anything that anybody else can suggest. Your profile doesn't say whether you are a bassist, but this bass is worth doing some research on the structure and upkeep of basses, before attempting to do anything with it.

[MollyKay]

Hello and welcome to TalkBass…I agree with all of the above information…especially not trying to re-string or “fix up” the bass until a qualified person can look over the bass to see if it is healthy.

I believe 100% this is a Kay bass and given your account of it being around for 60 years it most likely a 1947 Kay S-8 which was the “honey brown” colored Kay “S” model introduced in 1947. The “S” models were considered Kay’s top of the line bass and geared more toward professionals because of the fancy accessories (ebony fingerboard, real purfling, bound F holes, ebony tail piece, carved factory scroll, ebony horseshoe at neck heel). Your Grandfather was one lucky guy…this was and is a nice bass! If it has been sitting around for years it most likely will need some TLC. Basses are put together with hide glue which can weaken and fail after many years…especially if it has been stored in a hot attic or bedroom. Proceed with caution, poor repairs will only lesson the value…and don’t use anything harsh to clean it up. The patina on the bass it part of its character.

Hopefully you have a family member who will take an interest in the bass and bring it back to life. These big old basses are meant to make music and be enjoyed!

Best Wishes

[dchan]

Originally Posted by MollyKay

........ Basses are put together with hide glue which can weaken and fail after many years…especially if it has been stored in a hot attic or bedroom. Proceed with caution, poor repairs will only lesson the value…and don’t use anything harsh to clean it up. .....

Good advice, but to rookie ears, you almost make it seem like hide glue is not the way to go in repairing basses, Molly - the OP might think that it's weak and not 'permanent' enough.

So don't consider this a criticism, just a clarification. Hide glue is the way to go on almost all bass repairs - repairs are never permanent, and only hide glue will allow any crack, break, etc. to break at the glue joint only without taking off parts of the bass' wood, as well as wash away simply with warm water.

That said, try not to do the repairs yourself. Go to a good, reputable bass luthier to take care of any repairs for now, and learn about basses a little from him/her.

[MollyKay]

Originally Posted by dchan

Good advice, but to rookie ears, you almost make it seem like hide glue is not the way to go in repairing basses, Molly - the OP might think that it's weak and not 'permanent' enough.

So don't consider this a criticism, just a clarification. Hide glue is the way to go on almost all bass repairs - repairs are never permanent, and only hide glue will allow any crack, break, etc. to break at the glue joint only without taking off parts of the bass' wood, as well as wash away simply with warm water.

That said, try not to do the repairs yourself. Go to a good, reputable bass luthier to take care of any repairs for now, and learn about basses a little from him/her.

Oh My…no offense taken at all! Hide glue is absolutely the correct way to repair a vintage bass (or assemble a new bass). From our experience with vintage plywood basses many have been stored improperly for years and the hide glue has become dry and crystallized. Open seams and loose neck joint are to be expected on something that has been sitting unused for 50 years.

Hide glue is performing properly when it fails and lets the wood fibers remain in tack. On the other hand ill tempted repairs with “white glue” or other mystery glues (Gorilla glue, super glue, JP Weld etc…) will result in the damage of the bass or at the very least a few choice words **** in trying to un-do someone’s “non-luthier approved” repairs.

Thank you for pointing out what may have been an assumption for me and a blind spot for a newer TB member.

[lanretsr]

Thanks guys, I actually found on the name Kay on the bow just after reading your posts. I had someone come to look at it that wanted to buy it and was offered $250. I'm thinking that I might get it fixed into a playable condition and give it back to my grandfather. The guy that wanted to buy it seems to think that it just needs to have some head work done, fix the finger board, and put a new sound post in. I was going to have someone fix it for me also, can anyone recommend anyone in Ct to do the work? I called a local music repair shop, Beller's Music, and they said they would be able to do it. Once again thanks for the help guys.

[drurb]

You're near Manchester? Give Upton Bass a call. They're in Stonington. Please don't take that bass to a "music shop." Please!

Oh, and the guy wanted to give you $250? What a prince! If it's what Molly says it is, I'll give you $350 right now. You'd be wise not to take any such offer! As far as what it needs, let a real luthier determine that. You could end up doing more harm than good if you act on bad advice.

[Jsn]

I agree: you're fortunate to live quite close to one of the most extensive ol' Kay fixer-uppers around. Take it to Upton! The first thing they'll tell you is that it's worth more than $250.

Very sweet of you to contemplate fixing it up, then giving it back to your grandfather. That would be a touching gesture, in my book.

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by lanretsr

I had someone come to look at it that wanted to buy it and was offered $250.

The bass is worth more than that, even if in need of repair. It is worth repairing, simply out of "stewardship" for a noble instrument.

Ask your grandfather for some lessons!

[Bass Barrister]

That's an S-8 all right. Just like the one I own. A slight correction though, S-8s began to be offered in the late 1930s. Mine is from 1939.

As to value, my bass is worth $3k. It was restored about three years ago by the previous owner. the restoration included a new endpin, new tuners, a new bridge w adjusters, and some other tweaks. It retains the orginal Kay tailpiece.

You have a great find there. Enjoy it.

[MollyKay]

Originally Posted by Bass Barrister

That's an S-8 all right. Just like the one I own. A slight correction though, S-8s began to be offered in the late 1930s. Mine is from 1939.

As to value, my bass is worth $3k. It was restored about three years ago by the previous owner. the restoration included a new endpin, new tuners, a new bridge w adjusters, and some other tweaks. It retains the orginal Kay tailpiece.

You have a great find there. Enjoy it.

Hi Bass Barrister...thank you for the correction. Here is the information from www.kaybass.com...

In 1940 the cataloging of the S models began and continued until 1969. There were models were advertised as Supreme, Swingmaster, or Slapmaster basses (S-1, S-3, S-4, S-5, S-6, S-7, S-8, S-9, S-10). With the S model designations beginning in 1940, new models were added until 1952. Recent registrations indicate S model basses were made prior to 1940 for popular people. One of the basses registered was made in 1938, an S-6, and was apparently made for Bob Wills. We have also recently located an S-5 bass which would have been manufactured in 1937. The S-5 was a thin model. There is also an S-100 which is a thin Orchestra model. The S-100, very few manufactured, does not seem to carry inletted purfling or ebony trimmings.

Model S-8. A 1947 catalog says the S-8 is the same as the S-1 and S-9 except it offers a different color. S-1 is brown toned; S-9 is blonde and the S-8 was advertised as "honey colored".

Top of the line basses were advertised over the years as, Swingmaster, Supreme, Slapmaster or Slap Pro basses. The models were (S-1), (S-8) and (S-9). Top of the line five string basses were (S-51), (S-58), and (S-59). Identical except for color, these basses used Ebony on the fingerboards, an Ebony horseshoe shaped into the rear of the neck base . The horseshoes were manufactured by Kay. Kay employees started with 1/4" piece of ebony and used a Forstner bit for the inside diameter. Then a band saw was used to cut the outside a little bigger than the neck. A chisel was used to cut out the back to the size of the hole they drilled and the horsehoe was then glued on. After drying everthing was sanded flush. Some of the S model basses had the scrolls hand carved integral with the pegbox. There was also a company in Chicago, so far unidentified and out of business, who was responsible for the carving of the roses integral with the pegbox. They may have also made the roses used by Kay and glued onto the pegbox. These carved scrolls were used on the most expensive basses. The S-9 basses were blond with S-1 basses being brown toned. S-8 basses were "honey colored".

[MingusAmongUs]

Originally Posted by Jsn

I agree: you're fortunate to live quite close to one of the most extensive ol' Kay fixer-uppers around. Take it to Upton! The first thing they'll tell you is that it's worth more than $250.

I wouldn't bet on that. They offered me $500 for a late 50s/early 60s Epiphone in excellent condition. They might do a good fix-up job (I can't comment on that) but they will not give you a fair price for it.

[Bass Barrister]

Molly,

Thanks for that. I've some e-mail back and forth with Roger Stowers about this. He told me that Kay made about 400 of the S-8 models between 1938 and 1954. Mine was purchased from a local bluegrass player who (by spousal directive) was forced to choose between the Kay and 2 American Standard basses.

BTW, I don't think I've seen any note that the OP has cehcked the inside of the bass fro a label. Said label should read: "Kay Musical Instrument Company, Chicago, Illinois" and should have either a typed or hand-written serial number.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by MingusAmongUs

I wouldn't bet on that. They offered me $500 for a late 50s/early 60s Epiphone in excellent condition. They might do a good fix-up job (I can't comment on that) but they will not give you a fair price for it.

First of all, it was suggested that lanretsr take it to Upton get it fixed, not to sell it. Second, folks here have made him well aware of its potential value, so he's in no danger. Third, we can't see the Epiphone you're discussing and we sure don't know what the conversation was. We all know (or should know) that bass shops often do not want to buy basses from customers. I could imagine a conversation like, "Gee, if you sell it yourself, you could get xxx dollars but, given my inventory, for me to park it here, I could only give you xxx." Fourth, to even suggest that those guys at Upton wouldn't tell lanretsr that his bass is worth more than $250 is absurd.

[uptonbass]

Originally Posted by MingusAmongUs

I wouldn't bet on that. They offered me $500 for a late 50s/early 60s Epiphone in excellent condition. They might do a good fix-up job (I can't comment on that) but they will not give you a fair price for it.

Wait a minute... Jamie, is this why it seems you're always taking cheap shots at me? Sorry you took it that way... never my intent. To be clear, I BUY old plywood basses like Kays typically for $500 to $1000 depending on the model and the condition. For me, Epiphones are even less desirable than Kays. I ALWAYS tell my customers that they're better off selling them themselves. I told you that too. Even if I didn't tell my customers that, common sense would dictate that you could sell your own bass privately for more. It's like trading in a car. I'm a bass retailer and I'm willing to buy at wholesale. "Excellent condition" is very subjective. Regardless of who's put a new fingerboard, nut, or bridge on the bass, unless the bass is a lost cause we routinely replace that stuff. The only exceptions are if we simply don't have the time to recondition such a bass that we purchased or taken in on trade. Then, we sell it as is, typically on ebay. If you want to talk retail numbers, the average bass would get more than $2000 worth of work. So take the work at retail, subtract it from the estimated retail value of the bass, take that final number and anything as much as 50% off that number (or more if the bass is really damaged) is what you'll see a bass PURCHASED FOR at my shop. Now, if we're talking trade value, you'll get that same number toward my less expensive basses and maybe more toward a bass that I have more room in to make you a deal. No secrets here. If you know anything about us, our business isn't built on ripping people off. To the original poster, I invite you to come to the shop and look forward to spending time with you and telling you about your bass.

But this isn't what we're talking about here. Sorry Jamie hijacked the thread with a personal beef. I hate to have to defend myself publicly about matters like this and usually wouldn't do so but I'm forced to when someone doesn't bring the full story forward.

[MingusAmongUs]

Defend yourself if you must. I don't believe I'm "always taking cheap shots at you."

And I also don't consider this a hijack. I'm adding something to the topic that I believe is useful to know.

And Gary, you did NOT add anything about being better off selling myself. You weren't even there. Jack was there, and he called you on the phone, and he told me "we'll give you $500." End of story. Fair to say that was the same as saying "we don't want it." But my version WAS the whole story as far as I'm concerned. But let it be known that another dealer offered 5 times as much.

I do not wish to hijack the thread or get into anything else. As I said, I was just adding what I thought was relevant. If you're going to "defend yourself" by taking shots at me, I have to defend myself too.

We now return to our regular broadcast....

[uptonbass]

Originally Posted by MingusAmongUs

Defend yourself if you must. I don't believe I'm "always taking cheap shots at you."

And I also don't consider this a hijack. I'm adding something to the topic that I believe is useful to know.

And Gary, you did NOT add anything about being better off selling myself. You weren't even there. Jack was there, and he called you on the phone, and he told me "we'll give you $500." End of story. Fair to say that was the same as saying "we don't want it." But my version WAS the whole story as far as I'm concerned. But let it be known that another dealer offered 5 times as much.

I do not wish to hijack the thread or get into anything else. As I said, I was just adding what I thought was relevant. If you're going to "defend yourself" by taking shots at me, I have to defend myself too.

We now return to our regular broadcast....

You implied that we were trying to rip you off and that was the point of your post. That's not what we do.

[MingusAmongUs]

ugh

[drurb]

Originally Posted by MingusAmongUs

But let it be known that another dealer offered 5 times as much.

So did you sell it to that dealer for $2500?