carved vs. hybrid

[Downright_Low]

Dear TBers,

I'm looking for a better bass and I'm wondering what to do. I want to get a carved bass, but as I progress I wonder how much more expensive should my next bass be? Are there any reference points? Or do all basses need individual attention? I hope this is a fair question. I was told and I believe that between a hybrid and a carved bass there can be a considerable difference, even for a cheaper carved bass. I'm hoping so. I want the bass to be as fine as possible for the money I spend, for it to last, and I know it could. But from those who have knowledge or already experienced this: is there a general thing I should know when looking to buy a first fully carved bass? Is it worth the upgrade? When I had a little experience in playing some fully carved by hand basses I thought it was a huge improvement, but now I've lost touch and I'm trying to get someone to tell me until I can reach someone about testing again some stock basses. I think it's a big deal but let someone else say what's it been like to play something nicer, to come to own something and play on it for a while. It actually quite a discussion. I'm fascinated to hear, maybe it's not worth it and I should just save up for something absolutely outrageous....

[AMJBASS]

Read the stickys at the top of the "Basses" forum, and you will find a wealth of information. In general, I think you will find a very well made hybrid bass will sound better than a cheaply made fully carved bass. However without knowing your budget its difficult to give any recommendations.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Adrian Juras

Read the stickys at the top of the "Basses" forum, and you will find a wealth of information. In general, I think you will find a very well made hybrid bass will sound better than a cheaply made fully carved bass. However without knowing your budget its difficult to give any recommendations.

+1! What is your budget? Here are excerpts from one of my earlier posts:

Do not, however, be fooled. There are entry level carved basses that, from many standpoints, are far less desirable than a quality ply! Think of ply, hybrid, and carved as three overlapping distributions (bell-curves, if you will), with the mean value of "quality" being lowest for the plys, intermediate for the hybrids, and highest for the carved ones.

...A "fully-carved" bass for under $3k involves quite a few compromises. I've yet to see/play/hear one that I found more desirable than the best of the hybrids I've played that were of comparable cost. Perhaps sometime it will happen.

[Downright_Low]

Funny thing is I've felt somewhat that way, but I really get frustrated with my bass sometimes.... I'm just lazy. Because then when I feel they are similar I feel proud for my instrument and after all I've done with it I've grown attached to it....... so I need help. I'm trying to pay as little as far as budget goes.

My bass was $2200, about, a crappy Eastman... at least mine was made with greenish wood that cracked and had to be fixed twice, the second time by me and my dad. I've learned a lot from this bass, on how to control and play an instrument in. Something in me knows and hears the difference in plywood vs. carved wood, though... oh, oh, just thinking.... So, how much would the next thing up be, if there's some overlap, in price and quality I understand..? I've played somethings around $4,000-5,000, and I heard a big difference in each, but was it twice as good?

Sometimes I'm so sick of the lack of playability that I'd trade for the carved equivalent, just for that sound timbre difference. So many basses just sitting around in shops, why the f%&^ can't I... ya know? I got to do this myself, I know, all it takes is going down to Cincinnatti bass cellar, 6 hours drive.... and I can hear it for myself. The lack of bass in this world is saddening for a bassist.

I really appreciate all this response. I feel so fickle, but I feel like I should be opportunistic if I can, be better if I can, if it's possible to... I guess in that case I'll spend as much as I can. Is there any way to talk about this...? God it's hopeless. So there's no use? I know I'm dreaming... but, I know I'm not playing one of these so-called finer hybrids. It's average, at best. I've been pushing it constantly and little by little it follows. I feel like getting a new instrument would be a boost, everything I do would start from a more resonant place, although I would be starting over in a way - did you know instruments are different after being played? Some people don't know this, they think it's a belief, but it's not disputed. I'll keep on pushing with what I got and what's in my area. Maybe this will all be over, maybe it will never happen. Money sucks. What a face. You know the sound I'm hearing in my head, the difference between laminate and solid carved-by-hand? I can try to manually recreate this complexity over the course of several months, somewhat; I guess I'm free now, so is sound. But what's the point if it doesn't sound "good enough"? I'm seriously playing, the damn thing justs sounds like... wha................? I know I demand a lot, but I feel like something carved would help and be a difference so that's all I've got. I have to ask my teachers...

[drurb]

Okay Downright, I read through your "stream of consciousness" post. It seems you have a hybrid Eastman and that you want something better. What you haven't said is what is your budget. You say you'll spend as much as you can. What is that amount? Look, you can spend $4000, $10,000, $40,000... Don't even try to relate the ratio of prices to the ratio of the perceived quality. It just doesn't work that way, especially as the numbers grow. The point is whether shelling out the $$$ will cause you to end up with a bass in your hands that YOU feel is a substantial improvement and with which you are happy.

It seems from your post that you are not all that familiar with what different basses at different price-points can yield. My first suggestion is that you go on a mission to play a bunch of basses within and well outside your budget. Yes, in general, a nice "fully-carved" bass will be a step up from a hybrid (but see my earlier post). It's also true that there are hybrids out there that you may judge to be far superior to what you are playing now.

Finally, you mention playability. Now that's a matter of design and setup. If that's what's bothering you, then that part should be able to be remedied by visiting an accomplished luthier.

Where do you live?

[marvin spangles]

6hours isn't a big drive if you are talking about spending 4-5000 dollars. I think you are hung up on the carved thing. There are many excellent plywoods and hybrids out there that are a dream to play. Stop dreaming and go play some.

[Downright_Low]

I see many things have been addressed, which is thoughtful of you responders. I do need to get down to feeling it in my hands. I have played one $25,000 Quenoil copy, other than that I have only experienced a handful at $3k-$5k. I believe going way out and trying something "ideal", what would be pro and beyond my budget, will shed a great deal of light. I always feel that I need hours and hours to feel the difference and the more I play the more I get into it...maybe too much... I'll have to put up with the drive. You all give great advice - I am hung up for sure, but for now only. When I think about the money involved I realize how silly it is. I take it seriously, most of the time... I can't repeat my mistake.

On a good day my bass seems pliant... the playability I'm talking about is just about how much tone is coming. I have read alot about mode matching and have done the basics of set-up - strings, bridge, fingerboard, endpin, soundpost, etc - so this issue is just the tone of the bass, it's sound. The more I let it play its own way I realize more that it is there, it is full, it is present, it's just... unique.

I think it is subjective, too, that I should like it, feel improvement, because after a awhile I get lost in the difference between $30,000 and $50,000; a difference of $20,000 which is how many basses that would suit me? I guess it's all about how good does it sounds, how clean, how voluminous, at this very moment, and playable, etc., etc.. I just think that as players we should be free to make our instruments sounds richer... which is outside of price tags. Still, it would help my ears to expand.

Anyway, I'll try to get down to business and see what I can see. I live in Kent, Oh, and as I said before, I'll probably just end up buying from the Cincinnati Bass Cellar - it must be in person. Everything closer to Kent, in my limit knowledge, is not quite good enough or too good. Maybe there's a way to have a closer friend (Roger Stearns, for example) bring something over - I doubt it, I would probably be expected to buy it then?

I realized after posting that long thing that I hadn't answered the question of budget! So... I am willing to spend more, because it could be a worthwhile difference. But what will suit me will probably be <$10,000, something "student"... meh...bleh... I'm starting at the bottom, and with a little exposure to the tops I should find out where I stand. I emailed my teacher about all this, where do I fit, generally, with price. I know a good deal could break all the rules - something comes along that's above what I had in mind but sounds much better than priced, roping me into more spending but boosting me to an even higher "quality". God, it's morbid. I'd rather get something in my range and have it be a steal - a damn good bass.

[Downright_Low]

let's say $4,000-$8,000... I don't know. If I sound like stream of conciousness, like I have only little experience, I probably do.

[AMJBASS]

You can find a pretty nice bass at that price range. Keep your eyes open. There are plenty of older Juzeks around. As well as turn of the century czech/bohemian/german instruments in and around there. Good luck! And play as many as you can.

[Downright_Low]

Yes, the Shen hybrids are rather nice, but still, at this point... I'm ready for a more obvious step up.

[Downright_Low]

Thanks, thank you. Wonderful. I know I need to expend my field of vision. There's more around than I know, I'm very... innocent. Something will happen, at least I'll get to try somethings and experience a "higher" beauty for free for a little while... which may be what I need most. I feel like going around and playing basses of many different qualities should be more regarded, as students, or anything; after all there are many different basses, and how are we as string players supposed to have any kind enthusiasm without good sound? If we knew better what might be possible then I think the bass would be looking up, or more equal to the other instruments in any field that it isn't already, and I believe there are some... maybe I'm living in a box... oh wait... I am.

[longfinger]

Are you playing mostly classical music with a bow?

[Phil Rowan]

I think you just need to go play a bunch of basses in your $4k-$8k range and follow your ears towards what sounds/feels/plays right. The more basses you play, the more you'll be able to just narrow things down, and just trust that you'll know when you've found the bass you want to take home.

[Don Higdon]

I think you're in too damned big a hurry, and you want everyone else to solve your problems of impatience and inexperience. Life doesn't work that way.
A $30,000 bass is not going to sound as good when you play it as when played by someone schooled and experienced. Conversely, a great player will make a $2,000 ply sound like a more expensive bass. Michael Moore, one of the finest jazz bassists ever, is doing exactly that, playing a $2,000 Christopher with Dave Brubeck.
Slow down. Listen. Pay your dues. It's actually faster and cheaper that way.

[Phil Rowan]

+100

[hdiddy]

Also... tone is in your hands. There's only one way to develop that and there's no device that can play drones into your fingers while you sleep to make yourself sound better.

My only advice is to find something that is playable and doesn't fight back too much. Something in your price range should be possible. If you're just starting, I would say just mostly forget about what you think you should sound like. That identity will change as you get better and as your own tone develops. Even now my ears can don't fully understand what even good tone means or what's even possible. All I know are recordings and other ppls playing, but half the time I can only hear some nuances. I have to be taught to hear all the other things I don't see. It's like appreciating fine wine for the layperson.

I find it much easier not to define myself as to how I should sound. I just try to get the best tone I can whatever that may be at that instant. Something full and as much timbre as possible. That definition changes as my skills improve.

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

If you're just starting, I would say just mostly forget about what you think you should sound like. That identity will change as you get better and as your own tone develops. Even now my ears can don't fully understand what even good tone means or what's even possible.

Indeed. This is an incredibly important point.

As for the ply/carved issue....thats a tough one.

You can get a nice pizz tone out of either material, if it is a well crafted instrument. Biggest difference in my exp is arco tone. A high quality carved instrument played arco is very satisfying. Every ply Ive bowed has had a particular tubby sound (even though all basses are really tubs )

[drurb]

Although everyone has posted fine advice, I think we've veered a bit off course. The OP is trying to decide between a hybrid and a carved and his posts would suggest anyway, that he's been playing a while. So, I have a request for Downright. In 150 words or less (), please tell us:

1) How long you've been playing
2) What style(s) of music you play
3) What types of groups/ensembles you regularly play with
4) How long you've been taking lessons

Points will be awarded for brevity.

[uprightbass.com]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

I think you're in too damned big a hurry, and you want everyone else to solve your problems of impatience and inexperience. Life doesn't work that way.
A $30,000 bass is not going to sound as good when you play it as when played by someone schooled and experienced. Conversely, a great player will make a $2,000 ply sound like a more expensive bass. Michael Moore, one of the finest jazz bassists ever, is doing exactly that, playing a $2,000 Christopher with Dave Brubeck.
Slow down. Listen. Pay your dues. It's actually faster and cheaper that way.

This advice should be a sticky .... for all musicians.

Too many people spend too much time using musical instruments as status symbols instead of tools.

[Fletcher Lanning]

As a beginner, I understand the plight. It is very easy to get overwhelmed with 'preparation' instead of just learning to play and figuring out what you like. From every angle you have people telling you how difficult its going to be. On top of that, you have to get an instrument that is worth as much as a car (YMMV) and you have to choose the RIGHT one or you're out a ton of money. I'm lucky because I found an old Kay that plays nice and has a good voice under the bow as well so I have something to learn on; but (to the OP) there is no amount of information someone else can give you that will be more than a weak substitute for spending a lot of time playing a lot of basses. If you're having trouble getting to know a bass in a short period of time, try putting together a set of music that you play on every bass you try, so you have some reference point.