Carved vs Laminate Ribs

[GregL]

As I continue my research for my first bass I have a construction question. Would like input on carved (solid) vs laminated ribs.

I'm looking at a 5/8 (I'm 5'7"). I like the idea of solid ribs, but have heard other opinions that laminated is the way to go.

Appreciate input based on your experience. Once again from a sound and construction quality perspective.

Thanks all

[drurb]

The theory, as I understand it, is that laminated ribs are a bit stiffer and allow more of the energy to be transferred to the main plates. PW's Bohmann has, I believe, lami ribs.

[Ken McKay]

Hey Greg, I think you should be looking at a 3/4 sized bass. The laminated versus carved is well documented here.

[Phil Rowan]

+1 for 3/4

[Bass]

I'm 5'8" and have a 3/4 with the endpin out an inch, you should have a 3/4 too.

Also, the ribs on my bass are solid, laminated top & back. I think I would've rather had laminate ribs. I was playing the drums on the side of the bass and cracked the rib. A laminated rib probably wouldn't have cracked.



Oh yeah, there is a crack in the rib next to the endpin too, which my luthier said is normal in my climate. But I imagine a laminate wouldn't have cracked.

[GerardSamija]

The question is a bit more complicated than merely lamination versus 'carved' (actually planed/scraped/sanded to thickness, not really carved in the traditional sense). That is because there can be a range of thickness for each, as well as two-ply or three-ply laminates, and also reinforced single layer wood ribs. The oldest tradition of rib laminate is more a reinforcement than a full lamination, as it is very rare to see a full covering of linen inside the ribs garland. Traditionally, dating back at least 450 years, linen patches of almost full rib depth (lining-to-lining, not touching either belly or back) were used to make thinner ribs possible while actually increasing resistance to cracking or puncture. These patches were put in with small gaps between to allow ease of removal should some damage be so deep as to necessitate local repair of a rib. There might otherwise be accidental damage inflicted to the rib by the repairman, while cutting out a section. Removal of a smaller patch (a couple or a few inches wide) is relatively simple; just lay on a succession of hot, wet towels, and within a short time the hide glue re-dissolves and the patch can be gently lifted free. Remaining glue can be washed off and the repair can proceed. This traditional reinforcement of instruments larger than violins was for the most part abandoned, for un-documented and apparently unknown reasons. From information given me by a UK musician, it seems at least a few English luthiers were using linen for repair patching about a century ago, and there have been luthiers here and there using it elsewhere since, but the practice has remained outside the mainstream. This seems to me odd, since a linen-reinfoced rib suffers dramatically less damage on exposure to seasonal dryness or severe impacts. I use linen much more than ever these past few years, and find it a very satisfyingly light, strong material which ameliorates shrinkage and swelling cycles considerably, compared to wooden cross-grain patches which tend to propogate new cracks along their edges.

So linen-reinforced single-layer maple ribs are one option, but seldom seen. Keeping ribs as light as is practical is undoubtedly a boon in freeing an instrument to vibrate more readily, as the weight of heavy ribs tends to damp sound. Witness the dramatically reduced partial activity with something like a Dvorak Cremona laminated bass, where the ribs are over 1/8" thick and of three layers. These ribs do not break readily, but the cost in sound does not seem worthy as compromises go. Still, if one is going to climb all over a bass rockabilly style, that sort of rib is the best way to go.

I have worked with a number of brands of production basses with laminated ribs, some with laminated plates and some hybrids and some with carved backs and bellies. It seems from that experience that the best results come generally from ribs which are kept both as thin and as light as possible, with the best support for all frequencies coming from relatively thin mahogony or other lightweight layers for the ribs. One Chinese maker (don't know the actual name, but I set them up for a small music shop here in Vancouver) uses three layers, apparently all three being mahogony or similar wood, the outer-most being very thin (around 5/1000ths of an inch) flamed veneer and the total rib thickness well under 1/8". These all-laminated basses respond incredibly easily, considering their smaller than average size in the 3/4 range. They weigh only about 22 pounds strung up, and both belly and back seem thinner than average, though with no obvious signs of distortion from being too weak around the post or bar.

James Ham has for some years been making his basses with vacuum-formed laminations of two matched maple veneers (cut from the same thin rib stock) with a layer of raw silk between. He's using a resin adhesive which he says was successful in building aircraft over 60 years ago, some of which are still intact and air-worthy, so it seems a solid approach. His ribs are not likely easily punctured, and I've never heard of one splitting due to dry air or casual impact. They are thin enough to be quite flexible when pushed with a thumb.

So my suggestion would be as always, to shop for good sound, light weight, and an overall appearance of solid workmanship. Materials in particular don't seem as important.

[drurb]

Okay, but could you give us a little detail?

Thanks for the informative post!

[GerardSamija]

Here's a detail: don't drum on a bass rib, unless you're willing to pay for a potentially expensive repair.

[Bass]

Originally Posted by GerardSamija

Here's a detail: don't drum on a bass rib, unless you're willing to pay for a potentially expensive repair.

I second that!

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by Bass

Also, the ribs on my bass are solid, laminated top & back. I think I would've rather had laminate ribs. I was playing the drums on the side of the bass and cracked the rib. A laminated rib probably wouldn't have cracked.


Oh yeah, there is a crack in the rib next to the endpin too, which my luthier said is normal in my climate. But I imagine a laminate wouldn't have cracked.

Which bass of yours is this? The Eberle, or the Upton Hawkes?

[Bass]

That is the Hawkes. It's from November 2006 so it's the European import. ie pre Upton made in USA days.

The Eberle is "built like a tank". I stand on the Eberle without any worry at all, but I don't remember ever standing on the Hawkes.