CCB's - Owners Reviews

[Eric Hochberg]

I would like to read reviews of low price Asian Basses by actual owners that have had them for over 3 years (unless problems began earlier). Let's hear the good, bad, and ugly. Actual experiences, please, including problems, repairs, money spent fixing, etc. Purchase price, too. Please don't include basses by well regarded Chinese makers. Just the Palatino, Cremona, ebay, etc., variety.

I know this subject is all over TB, but having the details in one place about those basses that have "lived" for a while would be helpful, I think.

New owners, please don't reply unless the bass was a few years old when you got it.

Also, restraint on off topic comments would be appreciated! Please use the companion thread for this.

EDIT: Luthiers that have worked on basses of this type, please join in with specifics!

[zoonose]

OK, I've got one... well, my sister's got it now, for a while... anyway, had it for almost six years, no repairs needed, just cheap appearance and rough build quality- plays/sounds ok, just some sloppy spots. I don't know who made it, got it from http://www.gotofmi.com/

[Dubbin]

I wanted to take a little time and talk about my personal experiences with my Cremona SB-2 over the past four years. Before I proceed I'll take a moment and explain a few background things about myself. First, I am a self taught bassist and almost all of my experience is with my own bass although I have had the opportunity to play a couple of Kays and one very nice hand carved instrument. I primarily accompany fiddlers on 32 bar fiddle tunes ranging from Scottish, Quebec, Irish, English and Cape Breton styles. I also own a Thompson Hybrid which I used for this concert season (I'm leaving the Cremona out for easy access and the Thompson is living in its bag with a dampit for the winter although I play it once or twice a week) My Cremona was a gift from my wife and I became interested in upright bass only after plucking the string of one in a local music store (the same bass I am writing about today). Although I am self taught, I do get regular pointers from an experienced bassist who is a well known player in Maine and has played quite a bit on the national traditional music scene in a variety of venues such as the Kennedy Center and Garrison Keilor's Radio Show. I play with a fiddle orchestra, usually with 2 or 3 other bassists on a stage with approximately 70 players. I also play with a splinter group from the orchestra that is typically 8 to 10 players and we put on shows for nursing homes, elderly apartments and other groups. I am trying to teach myself some Jazz standards.

I have played this bass for 4 years and drag it our of the house at least once a week for rehearsals and gigs. On rehearsal night I drag it to my desk for the day as I don't have time to go home. I have taken it to my ski house in the winter and up to the lake in the summer so it has experienced some of the stress that a working bass would normally see, or at the very least it hasn't lived a protective life at home.

Construction:

The top (yes the top) ribs and back are made of maple plywood (yes the top is maple). The neck is maple and the fingerboard is ebony, I am not certain if the tail-piece is ebony or stained maple. This bass shows some signs of sloppy construction in a few places. First, the lower c-bout on the bass string side has a slight bulge where the corner block (or whatever the internal brace is called) seems to be slightly too long. This was complicated with a sanding dip that is easy to see or feel. The f holes are were not sanded much. The neck seems to have reasonable relief and I do not seem to have any issues with the ebony fingerboard. Internally, the sound post does not rest on a pad like many basses but simply terminates against the plywood back. Probably the most alarming thing about the bass is the glue. I am not sure what they used for glue but it is clearly not hide glue. It appears very similar to silicone or something you might use in hot-melt glue gun. Should the bass ever need to come apart or do so on its own, this glue will likely prove to be a problem. The purfling (advertised as genuine) appears to be painted.

Durability:

The seam on the bottom of the belly opened up some and I glued it with hide glue. It did not reoccur. The top seemed to have a minor de-lamination around one of the f-holes and I inject some glue and clamped it (an made a clamp divet in the process). This seemed to fix that problem. After three years I started to get some buzzing on the a-string and I paid somebody to put adjusters on the existing bridge which took care of the issue. I see no signs of the basses immediate demise.

Satisfaction:

I am satisfied with the bass. I would not sell it for its purchase price today. I realize it has limitations and my Thompson plays easier and sounds more complex. I like the fact that it was relatively inexpensive and I feel free to drap it all over hell's half acre. My attitude has been that I'll just glue it back together if I have an issue,. When I first got the bass I was pretty worried by the dire warnings I read about here. I know some of the luthiers who comment have direct experience but I suspect a lot of the posters who are most vocal against these instruments have no experience. One of the other bassists in my group has a Palatino and it has held up well for a couple of years. For the record, they are not the same bass (or at least ours are not the same). I don't know how atypical my experience is but I like my bass and really don't care if others don't share that opinion. If I were going to buy a bass like that today I'd probably drive to NY and by one of the NOS repair stock from Ideal Music but I have no serious misgivings about my Cremona. My Thompson is certainly nicer in every way but I am keeping the Cremona because I don't care too much about it being in a dry environment and I am not too stressed to take it into the great outdoors.

[michaeln]

This is great stuff, keep it coming!

[CrazyZeke]

Thanks for the background and history info about your CCB. I'm glad to hear with all the issues you've had it's still playable. Like you said. a good bass for outdoor gigs.

[michaeln]

Doesn't really sound to me like Dubbin has had many issues with his bass. I had heard the scare stories that said basically, you buy one, open the box, and it will implode as soon as you bring the strings to pitch.

Seems not to be the case from the couple guys who have posted.

[crowsmengegus]

Few threads with various "reviews" in them, though they might not all meet the 3 year requirement:

Whats your cheap bass horror story?

My BSO success story

Cheap eBay bass not holding pitch

I know this has been covered to death but...

[LouisF]

When I first started teaching at Deep Springs College in the High Sierras, I bought one (also from Tom Kerr at FMI) for the students there. The bass lasted about five years in impossible conditions - hot dry summers, long cold winters; baseboard heated studios etc; general student neglect etc. After about five years the bass was thoroughly shot and we got a laminated Upton bass, which, I understand has also held up very well, although I haven't been there for the past three years.

Louis

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by crowsmengegus

Few threads with various "reviews" in them, though they might not all meet the 3 year requirement:

That was a major point of this thread, to find out how they do over time and when and if problems manifest themselves. Many of the previous threads seem to get into hearsay, group-think and humor, and are light on actual experiences.

[crowsmengegus]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

That was a major point of this thread, to find out how they do over time and when and if problems manifest themselves. Many of the previous threads seem to get into hearsay, group-think and humor, and are light on actual experiences.

There are plenty of legitimate reviews in those threads.

[sirero]

^^^ right, but most of those reviews are about instruments that didn't last the 3 years that Eric is looking for. While they are worthwhile reviews many of them follow one of these tried and true stories:

Bought it, and it exploded on the inside of a year; Bought it, maybe had a luthier look at it refused to pay more than what it was worth to have it fixed, hurt like hell to play, sold it; bought one did pay the high price to fix it was underwhelmed with the sound, fell in love with bass anyway bought a shen.

My story: I bought mine when I was a Junior in high school ('07?) from a Berklee flute major who had graduated, he wanted $800 obo for it I planed on looking at it, offering about 500 for it, and haggling to around 650, well he took the 500 without hesitation, and I played the $#?! out of that bass and developed horrible habits, but i played it. and eventually I decided to get some new strings for it so I drove down to Upton's shop and wanted them to have a look at it to see if the action could be improved. And the upgrade prices they quoted me was the same cost as a new bass from them. When I got home my dad bought me a set of files and a rasp and told my to shave down the nut myself, so I did and the bass was deemed playable by my first teacher. When I got to UMass Lowell the fingerboard began to warp and it needed to be looked at. By now I had met Volker Nahrmann and he set me up with my fully carved Eastman. But I decided to try the planning that Mr. Nahrmann had suggested myself, and I made the radius far too shallow. I cut an ebony fingerboard from Upton down to fit, and replaced the ash one. I still want to get an ebony nut for it to replace the Oak one I made.

keep in mind I was brought up in a house that doesn't put a high monetary value our time.

As of today: The bass doesn't sound fantastic by any stretch of the imagination, but it's playable and it is a tank. It is still the bass I use at Outdoor concert band gigs.

Total investment: $900 still less than the next step up
$500-Bass
$100-BP-100
$100?-D'addario Helicore Orchestrals(I haven't even checked the price on those in a long time)
$200-Ebony Fingerboard

[drurb]

Originally Posted by sirero

^^^ right, but most of those reviews are about instruments that didn't last the 3 years that Eric is looking for.

Actually, those reviews do fit Eric's criteria:

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

I would like to read reviews of low price Asian Basses by actual owners that have had them for over 3 years (unless problems began earlier).

Thanks for sharing your story. If I understand correctly, you invested a large amount of sweat equity in your CCB, perhaps more than many would be willing or able to invest. You replaced the bass with an Eastman within about two years of buying it (junior in high school to college). Essentially then, your $900 plus all that sweat equity bought you a so-so sounding beater bass. Yes?

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by crowsmengegus

There are plenty of legitimate reviews in those threads.

If anyone wants to separate just the review part of an old thread (if it meets the criteria) and add it here, that would be helpful. If we keep the cross talk to a minimum here, I think this thread would be of more benefit to those thinking about buying a CCB.

[MIKMAN]

ΟΚ friends, here is my own experience. Some years ago in the Cremona Mondomusica Fair i established a connection with a Chinese luthier who constructs instruments of the violin family. I ordered some varnished and some unvarnished instruments (but not a DB) and, to my astonishment, all of them were of excellent quality. All of them had been bought by my close friends and they played them in many concerts with impeccable reviews. So i ordered a high grade double bass for me. It was a fully carved instrument with the most beautiful tonewoods i had seen in my life. The bass needed a thorough set up, new strings, some FB dressing and a new bridge so i laid my hands on. A luthier would definitely charge some real money for this work. When i finished i had a very good instrument in my hands. Strung with Spiros it delivered a warm pizz sound with lots of sustain, albeit not very loud. A Marvin wire tailpiece and a CF endpin improved things considerably. I used it for arco work with Belcantos and it delivered a sweet, cello like sound, which blended very well with the rest of the bass section. Good, more than decent instrument as far as it concerns the sound.
As time passed some problems quite common in CCB occured. After one year i noticed a shrinkage in the ribs in both the upper and lower bouts. It also developed a bulge in the lower bout rib near the endpin. These problems are usually attributed to "green" tonewood and this shrinkage caused some open seams. I repaired all of them easily but for the usual DB player it would cost some additional money. Then the less than perfect varnish started to show some problems, so i had to strip it down and revarnish it with a Hammerl oil varnish.
Now i have this bass for five years in my hands. It never showed any other problem and i use it for many indoor gigs. I paid $2500 for it (including shipping, taxes and insurance) and it came with a very useful wooden case. I can't estimate either the hours i spent on it or the cost of these hours but i think it is a very good and beautiful instrument, which will be always in my arsenal. However any European double bassist would pay a fortune in order to make it playable.
My opinion it that this particular Chinese luthier is excellent in the construction of violin, violas and cellos but he needs better and aged tonewoods in order to make double basses of the same quality. I continued my cooperation with him but i have never ordered another double bass. If anyone needs any details about him please PM me.
Mike
PS. In my next reply i'll tell you about the Thomann CCB's and my experience with them.

[drurb]

^^^^^ Mike, would you say that bass truly qualifies as a CCB? It seems that, despite its problems, it was of a substantially higher grade than the $500-700 instruments usually discussed here as CCBs.

[michaeln]

One esteemed DB guy who has been banned from this board has a theory that the hot, humid climate in China establishes a lower limit as to just how dry they can get the wood. No matter how long you dry it, the relative humidity of the environment will impose a limit as to how much moisture can leave the wood.

Makes sense to me.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by michaeln

One esteemed DB guy who has been banned from this board has a theory that the hot, humid climate in China establishes a lower limit as to just how dry they can get the wood. No matter how long you dry it, the relative humidity of the environment will impose a limit as to how much moisture can leave the wood.

Makes sense to me.

Well, Shens, as well as other fine basses made in China, don't seem to have that issue. In addition, the drying environment can be controlled. Green is green.

[Bass]

Originally Posted by MIKMAN

...So i ordered a high grade double bass for me. It was a fully carved instrument with the most beautiful tonewoods i had seen in my life. The bass needed a thorough set up, new strings, some FB dressing and a new bridge...

My opinion it that this particular Chinese luthier is excellent in the construction of violin, violas and cellos but he needs better and aged tonewoods in order to make double basses of the same quality...

Is it unusual that a luthier who knows how to properly construct an instrument does not know how to perform a proper set-up?

[MIKMAN]

Dear Les i do agree that the instrument i described is not in the category of $600 laminates. Nevertheless it is a fully carved instrument constructed from richly flamed tonewoods and offered for $2500 (including a brazilwood bow and shipping from China to Greece in a beautiful hard case), so it is in fact a cheap Chinese bass in its own category. Today, if i'll find the time, i'll share with you my experience from two Thomann CCB's in the $600 category.
Mike

[MIKMAN]

Originally Posted by Bass

Is it unusual that a luthier who knows how to properly construct an instrument does not know how to perform a proper set-up?

This particular luthier certainly knows both the construction and the set up perfectly. When asked about the set up he told me that it leaves it to the final customer, in order to have it performed by his/her own luthier according to his/her particular taste. I'm not quite sure if it is an excuse or his true intention, but i believe that it is a rather minor problem compared with the problem with "green"tonewoods. The same esteemed former TBDB member who commended about different humidity levels in China has imported some of exactly these double basses and he has roughly the same verdict like mine.
Mike