Comparison (with sound file) of Shen 3/4 willow and another Chinese bass

ThunkyMusic · #1 03-09-2011, 05:04 PM

I've been comparing the Shen 3/4 willow bass (with back and sides of willow, spruce top, flattish back reinforced internally with a wooden X brace), with another fully carved Chinese bass in the same price range, with maple sides and back and spruce top, curved back with no bracing. I've called them Bass A and Bass B in the sound file you can find here (24 bit 96 KHz .wav file):

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2877765/Bass...4bit_96Khz.wav

Wonder how you all think these basses compare; I'll reveal which is which in a few days, if people are curious.

PRUNEFACE · #2 03-09-2011, 05:12 PM

Bass A is darker and Bass B is brighter. Same strings?

ThunkyMusic · #3 03-09-2011, 05:37 PM

Thanks for sharing your impressions. Yes, they both have Thomastik Bel Cantos on them. I did find A generally darker, B brighter, and so did my wife. I noticed some other differences, but I'm having a tough time deciding which I like better. (I will likely buy one of these basses!).

By the way, sorry about the quality of playing on the clip...I play cello, not yet bass!

Dave Irwin · #4 03-09-2011, 06:14 PM

I like bass B and based on my Shen Willow, I'd guess bass B was the Shen though it's hard to tell from just a recording. Whether it is or not, I perceive a little more resonance from bass B. Bass A has more of the out front sound you hear close to the bass but I think bass B has more presence and depth that might be better discerned from more of a distance.
I'm sure the willow is prettier

Good luck,
Dave

statsc · #5 03-09-2011, 06:35 PM

Bass B seems darker to me; Bass A seems brighter and with perhaps more projection. I like dark basses, and would guess that B is the carved one.

ThunkyMusic · #6 03-11-2011, 01:29 PM

I had decided, even before posting this thread, that I probably liked Bass B best although there are certain things I like about each one. But I accidentally voted for Bass A! Argh! So when looking at the poll, move one from the A to the B column.... That would make it, at the time of this posting, 1 for Bass A, 5 for bass B, and 1 undecided. I do find it interesting that most of you agreed with me, and it's nice to think that may indicate that imagined future listeners will enjoy the sound of B a bit more, especially because I bought Bass B yesterday.

I'll reveal which is which next week, after giving people a little longer to listen, vote, and comment. Thanks to all who've done so so far!

Bijoux · #7 03-11-2011, 01:39 PM

Well I do like the arco sound on bass A.
Pizz sounds good on both of them. I have a slight inclination towards bass B for pizz though.
I suggest you get together with a experienced bass player and have him play for you. So you can have his impressions, besides you'll be able to hear the bass from different angles.

ThunkyMusic · #8 03-11-2011, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bijoux

Well I do like the arco sound on bass A.
Pizz sounds good on both of them. I have a slight inclination towards bass B for pizz though.
I suggest you get together with a experienced bass player and have him play for you. So you can have his impressions, besides you'll be able to hear the bass from different angles.

Bijoux, thanks for the comments and suggestion... I did have the chance to hear someone else play both of them ... and I also did more extensive recording than that soundclip represents. It is definitely the case that you hear different things when you're playing than when you're listening, and at different distances from the bass. I found Bass A a little bit easier to play, arco, and since there's a chance I may take up playing in a community orchestra if I get good enough, that's a consideration. With each bass, there were aspects of the arco sound I liked, though. Since my main application is intended to be jazz, and since I decided I like the pizz better on the Bass B, overall, I went for Bass B. Bass A has a certain clear attack when playing pizz, though, that has a certain appeal. Kind of gives a bit of a fingerpoppin' snap to a walking bass line. I got the feeling I might get a little tired of having that more emphatic plunk on every note, in every tune, though. I felt Bass B got a more rounded tone on pizz especially, and a slightly more open and complex arco tone, though one that was a little harder to get going with the bow. I'll comment more extensively early next week when I reveal which is which.

drurb · #9 03-11-2011, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by statsc

Bass B seems darker to me; Bass A seems brighter and with perhaps more projection. I like dark basses, and would guess that B is the carved one.

Bass B seems darker to me as well. I hear a pronounced difference in the "nasal" quality of the two with Bass B being more nasal (more relative energy in the 1-2 kHz octave). Now, unless you played both basses in the same spot in the room relative to the microphone, then all bets are off. How closely was that controlled? It's really difficult to draw conclusions based on such recordings. Then again, a shift of the sound post on one may make them sound more alike on the recordings but, perhaps not in person. I might prefer the clearer more open sound of Bass A if it were accompanied by a strong low end. That's difficult to evaluate on the silly sound system I'm using on my computer.

I'm gonna see if I can grab the file and get a spectral display to see if my ear is correct...

Edit-- Just took a look. Yup, more relative energy in the 1 kHz region, also an octave below.

ThunkyMusic · #10 03-12-2011, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drurb

Bass B seems darker to me as well. I hear a pronounced difference in the "nasal" quality of the two with Bass B being more nasal (more relative energy in the 1-2 kHz octave). Now, unless you played both basses in the same spot in the room relative to the microphone, then all bets are off. How closely was that controlled? It's really difficult to draw conclusions based on such recordings. Then again, a shift of the sound post on one may make them sound more alike on the recordings but, perhaps not in person. I might prefer the clearer more open sound of Bass A if it were accompanied by a strong low end. That's difficult to evaluate on the silly sound system I'm using on my computer.

I'm gonna see if I can grab the file and get a spectral display to see if my ear is correct...

Edit-- Just took a look. Yup, more relative energy in the 1 kHz region, also an octave below.

Thanks for the comments and the spectral observations!

To answer one of your questions, the basses were played in the same spot in the room relative to the microphones (sitting on the same stool in the same spot). The only variable would be that I didn't store the bass that wasn't being played in the same spot in the room in both cases (which could have an effect on the room sound). I doubt that's having a big effect here, though. I also hear a slightly more "nasal" quality with bass B, as well as more "complexity" (which the slight nasality probably contributes to)...I'd guess both of these properties might come from more high overtones, perhaps also some resonances. Maybe B has some resonances at 1 Khz and 500 Hz that are showing on your spectral analysis? Perhaps slightly paradoxically, I also hear bass B as more "open" in some ways, while also hearing in bass A a quality that's probably what you're referring to as clarity. To me, it might shade toward "simplicity" though.

When I listened to these clips via lower-quality sound processing (one or the other of cheaper headphones and built-in laptop sound as opposed to electrostatic 'phones and a decent digital audio interface), I found the differences between the basses much less pronounced---in fact I was surprised how much less clear the differences became.

longfinger · #11 03-12-2011, 07:38 PM

In the 3 examples, I prefer bass B in all three. I don't have the vocabulary to explain why.

ThunkyMusic · #12 03-13-2011, 12:13 PM

Hi---

I posted a while back that I had accidentally voted for A instead of B. Thought I should let you know that at my request the moderator has corrected that slip on my part, so the current poll results accurately reflect my intention to vote for Bass B. (Communications with forum admin seemed to indicate to me that this can only be done for the initiator of a thread, so be careful when voting!) I'll reveal the identity of the basses tomorrow.

ThunkyMusic · #13 03-14-2011, 12:37 PM

Thanks to all who commented and voted!

Vote currently stands at 3 for Bass A, 7 for Bass B, 3 listened but undecided.

Bass A is the Shen 3/4 fully carved willow/spruce with flattish braced back (I believe this is model SB200), with gamba corners. Bass B is the fully carved 3/4 maple/spruce curved-back bass, also from China, with violin corners, labeled "C. A. Michael" (importer?). As I mentioned, both were strung with Thomastik Bel Cantos. I used the same bow (carbon fiber bow from Robertsons, see below) with both.

The Shen was on loan from Robertson & Sons in Albuquerque, NM. Both I and Aaron Robertson independently chose this one as the better of the two they have in stock. The other was from the Violin Shop of Santa Fe, owned by Kevin Miller. As I mentioned, I've now purchased Bass B from the Violin Shop. I also bought the carbon fiber bow from Robertson's. (I get no monetary or other consideration from either of these companies for these mentions.) I liked them both, it was a tough choice... prices were roughly comparable, roughly $4000 for the one I bought and $4500 for the Shen, including bags in each case. I didn't press for the best deal on the Shen, as I bought the other one, and I may have gotten a better price on the one I bought because it had just arrived in the shop. I've had other dealings with both of these shops, and have only had good experiences each time.

Dave Irwin · #14 03-14-2011, 01:09 PM

Congratulations on your new bass!
I really thought B was the Shen based on the sound of my bass. I guess that goes to show what they say about every bass being different is true. Sounds like you got a good one.

ThunkyMusic · #15 03-15-2011, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Irwin

Congratulations on your new bass!
I really thought B was the Shen based on the sound of my bass. I guess that goes to show what they say about every bass being different is true. Sounds like you got a good one.

Thanks, Dave! I'm really enjoying everything about playing the bass, from playing arco scales to putting together walking lines. (Well, OK, trying to toughen up the side of my left thumb is not that much fun...).

Sounds like you've got a great Shen... the willows do indeed look cool, as you mentioned, with the pronounced stripiness of the grain on the sides and back, and even a little birds-eye figuration in spots on the side of the one I tried, plus the darkish golden brown color works great with the wood.

Bijoux · #16 03-15-2011, 01:22 PM

Well now that we've heard what it sounds like maybe you could post some pics so we can see what it looks like!

LeslieD · #17 03-15-2011, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThunkyMusic

the willows do indeed look cool, as you mentioned, with the pronounced stripiness of the grain on the sides and back, and even a little birds-eye figuration in spots on the side of the one I tried, plus the darkish golden brown color works great with the wood.

I love everything about my Shen willow bass EXCEPT for the way it looks. I've got the Rogeri and really like the shape...but ughhh, the wood couldn't be uglier! It reminds me of 1960s rustic camp furniture. Maybe it's just the slab cut wood that looks so crude to me. Anyway, I'm always admiring my friend's nicely flamed maple basses. My Shen has the sound I want though, so beauty has to take a back seat...at least for now.