Contending with the pianist's left hand. . .

[Rees Chapman]

Question: how should a bass player find his way in a band with a heavy-left-handed (albeit skilled and gifted) pianist?

(Sorry if this is in the wrong forum, and/or repeated elsewhere; my search found no associated threads.)

About me: I’m an amateur double bassist, playing off and on for 25 years in folk/bluegrass/blues groups. I once read music for vocals; neglected, those skills aren’t available to me. I’m a psychologist fulltime; music is a parttime passion.

My situation: I was invited by a local community theater to play bass in a musical, Big River. I told them I really couldn’t sight-read, and would need to learn songs by ear over a few weeks, to which they agreed. I only got the CD and score one week before the 1st of three scheduled rehearsals before the opening show. Still, I learned 22 songs by ear from the recording, feeling fairly fluent with them. I asked for more rehearsal time, and was begrudgingly given one more (but still with the full cast). The rest of the band consists of piano, drums, and fiddle. The pianist is also the conductor, and she’s agreeable and open to suggestion, but seems fixed on the score. At the 1st rehearsal, the problem became obvious: arrangements, keys, and cues from the score were, for most songs, very different from the recorded version. Still, I hurriedly relearned the bass parts, knowing that they were not exactly the same as those of the score, but seemed to work well with the recordings.

The problem: The bass lines sound very bad (to me; others seem to be OK with them). They’re muddy, busy. Seems to me when I play a series of notes that is in the same register as those played by the piano, but not identical, they blend poorly. For example, if I’m walking up from an E to an A while the piano walks down to the same A from an E an octave higher, much of it sounds like crap. Also, her piano (Roland electric) is much louder on stage than my bass (fed directly into the PA through a piezo transducer, listened to on monitors), so I have a hard time maintaining accurate intonation. As a result, I feel relegated to pedal notes, which makes my bass more of a stage prop.

What do you suggest?

[funkometer]

Let him know, although some guys wont be able to change the way they naturaly play.

[ScottyAx800]

If the left hand parts are intricate that is going to put a serious damper on your creative license here, as you have already seemed to figure out.

It seems as though your job has been relegated to playing pedal notes, or perhaps matching some of the piano bass lines to create a different tone for some of the different passages. I wouldn't think of it as being a 'stage prop' as you say - you are still filling an important role in the group, though perhaps not as much in the limelight as you may like.

All I can say is, when it sounds muddy, play less. It's an ego bust but the band will sound better, and as a result, so will the whole show. If you have time to look at and learn some of the left-hand keyboard lines in appropriate passages, that will add some spice to the show and help get your intonation into shape at the same time.

[Eric Hochberg]

Ask her to avoid playing "bass lines" in her left hand or, you'll have to learn the bass lines she is playing so that it doesn't "sound like crap".

For future gigs, I suggest learning how to read music so that if necessary, you can get the lines off the piano score.

[Mark Perna]

Welcome to the world of professional bass playing.

We deal with this kind of stuff all of the time and not just in shows. I've had my share of jazz gigs where the pianist hired for the gig mostly plays solo and is accustomed to filling everything in. They frequently don't even realize that they are stepping all over you. Usually you can talk to the pianist and diplomatically request that they play a little less in your register and many are fine with that and comply. Other times, for various reasons, fragile egos being one of them, you can't say anything without stepping on toes.

Figure out which this case is and live with the results. If the pianist is cool with using less low register, you have a lot more room to improvise your lines. If she isn't, then you'll either have to stay out of her way or learn her lines. Unison bass and low register piano is a pretty cool effect though. Whatever the result, it is all part of playing professionally. You have to check your ego at the door and go for the common good.

When I'm stuck in these situations, I just try to complement what is going on the best I can. Sometimes that is limited to playing low long tones. Invariably though you'll find spaces to add some personality to the proceedings.

mark

[Jake deVilliers]

If your piano player is reading the part, she's going to want to play what's written.

Given that, you might be better off framing the chords with arpeggios or that 2 note Broadway thing - you'll be adding to the groove in an appropriate way while staying out of her way.

Either way, you'll learn a lot!

[Rees Chapman]

I appreciate the prompt responses of empathy, support and suggestion!

[CrashClint]

You want I should send Guido and Carmine to visit her? Maybe they could just break the pinky and ring finger on the left hand.

[Ed Fuqua]

Isn't that why they make the keyboard lid without a way to lock it open?

[GeneralElectric]

My solution is a fairly simple one:

[damonsmith]

This might not be a bad time to get some lessons with a pro player, brush up on reading and arco skills.

[drurb]

Get a really big amp.

[CamMcIntyre]

As mean as it sounds, to me-you've got a gig that you can't quite swing. A theater show is very heavy on the reading. The cast albums are nice to get a feel for the songs, but not a whole lot beyond that. When i say get a feel-i mean get tempos, overall groove, NOT how it will be done in the show. I commend you for trying to learn them all by ear, but IME-you need to be able to read it.

If you were playing jazz-i'd say more power to you for learning it all by ear, but you're playing a theater show.

The Piano player [if she's like the ones I've worked with] will continue to play the bass lines until she is convinced that you know them cold-correctly.

If you do not have the time to learn how to read, talk to the music director and be up front. If you have to learn them all by ear-A. i commend your memory, B. sit down with her & learn the show w/o the others around.

good luck man.

[bkbirge]

Same problem here with the keyboardist in the cover band I'm in. Good ear but a heavy left hand and doesn't seem to notice he's stepping all over the bass range on many songs (I think he knows, he just wants to play what he wants to play). I just take that as my cue to step on the guitar and vocalist ranges. J/k of course, I usually just play simpler and go for a harmonic approach instead of doing the 'counterpoint in the mud'. It can be frustrating but there are moments when I realize I'm doing something I like that I never would have tried otherwise.

[salcott]

"The Piano player [if she's like the ones I've worked with] will continue to play the bass lines until she is convinced that you know them cold-correctly."

Actually, the pianist will continue to play the bass notes because that's all she knows how to do. Most "show" pianists are used to being the whole orchestra and as such are usually incapable of changing the way they play the book simply because other musicians have been added. You'll be lucky if you get to play the same tempo for sixteen consecutive bars. It's the bane of the (particularly amateur or community production) show bass player's existence This is why reading is essential for this kind of work. It's not about making music; it's about the show. I feel your pain.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by CamMcIntyre

I commend you for trying to learn them all by ear, but IME-you need to be able to read it.

IMO, this is the wisest response so far. I agree completely.

[biobass]

I feel your pain. I've been doing shows for 35 years now, it is the mainstay of my gigging, but when I first started I really didn't know how to read very well either. I got the first gig from a piano player I was working with in a wedding band who also played bass. During the middle of a gig one night he asked if I could cover for him next weekend. Thinking it was another society casual, I said sure. It was for "Shanendoah." I got the score 5 days before hand. I ended up writing the names of the notes, or at least the key notes, on top of every measure. I got some raised eyebrows from the Conductor, but overall, I let my ear do the work and followed the piano player's left hand as much as I could.

In some ways "Shanendoah" is somewhat like "Big River" in that there is a folk simplicity to the harmonic structure of a lot the tunes. Makes it a little bit easier to fake it.

I decided then and there to buckle down and learn how to read. It is just plain practice. I know tht doesn't help you now, but I agree with what the others have said...theater gigs are reading gigs, pure and simple. Cast albums, especially older ones, generally have lots of cuts and rearrangements, as do the shows themselves depending on talent, design constraints etc. The incidental music is almost never recorded. Also, you have to learn to transpose, sometimes on the fly. Then there is always the dropped beat or measure, or entire verse, as well as the late entrance and the vamps. And there are a lot of modern shows that call for a lot of improvisation and prowess.

I've learned over the years that you don't have to be the most technically accomplished player to play most shows... but you DO have to know how to play shows!

I love musical theater and now specialize in it. Every night is a challenge to get that entrance just a bit tighter, lock in with the rhythm section just a bit more, nail that one slurred double stop, etc. There is, actually, in some ways, much more freedom to explore musical nuance when you don't have to worry about improvising the notes.

Keep at it. Community theaters tend to be much more forgiving than the professional and regional theaters, although not always!

Good luck!

Dennis

P.S. I was hired for the next show after that first run of Shenandoah. Either bass players were in real short supply, or I didn't do as badly as I had thought!

[boombloom]

My wife is a concert pianist. I have to look out for her left hand all the time. Of course, we don't play any music together at all.

It must be pretty weird playing with the paper trained population when you're used to doing your own thing. Theater gigs are filled with all sorts of carefully timed cues and orchestrated harmonies. I can't imagine learning all that by memory. I live in a very rural area and have turned down some gigs with the local theater. They figure that I can play bass in their shows. I really don't think I can manage that stuff.

[CamMcIntyre]

Originally Posted by salcott

Actually, the pianist will continue to play the bass notes because that's all she knows how to do. Most "show" pianists are used to being the whole orchestra and as such are usually incapable of changing the way they play the book simply because other musicians have been added.

I'm solely referencing the pianists that I've worked with. With the last show i played [Lippa's The Wild Party], the pianist started to play less and less of the bass notes. Once we got to performance, I don't believe she played much of it at all.

On the tempo not staying consistent for 16 consecutive bars-i don't agree. It all depends on the show and song.

On the comment about having very little time to learn a show-that is where i'm at this week. I take the train back to Lafayette straight from work on Wednesday. I'm subbing in for a Civic production of Disney's "High School Musical" this coming weekend back in Lafayette. I get the book Thursday early afternoon, dress rehearsal is Thursday night at 7:30PM, shows Friday & Saturday. I have been listening to the Sound Track heavily for the past few weeks & I'll watch the movie at least once to get a bigger idea of some expected dialogues/cues. I'm curious/anxious to work with this music director again. The last time I played under him was for show choir in high school. I've already gotten some heads up warnings from the guy playing the other weekend. Apparently nothing has changed since I was in high school.

Sunday is the sitzprobe for "My Fair Lady"-I'm playing for a short run in a suburb. We had a rehearsal this past Sunday & listening to the OBC album extensively before hand made it a lot easier. That day i'll be getting back to Chicago about 11AM, dropping off my electric & suitcase, getting my book & meeting the music director at 12:30 to go out to the theater. It's about 30mins from my place to the meeting place. We arranged to have my DB at the theater in advance. I've worked out the trouble spots I had. The main thing that reading through the book reminded me is that I need to work on my dynamic range while playing with the bow.

Edit: Check out www.BassPlayer.tv and look for the videos of John Miller. John Miller = a guy that I'd like to become good friends with, he's a music contractor for Broadway shows in addition to being a great bassist. He gave a great Master class on Theater Bass playing. I try to rewatch them at least once a week.

[bankerwithabass]

I've been reading this thread with interest but it really got interesting after last Friday when I played a jazz gig and the piano player insisted on playing the bass parts on tunes like the intro to All the Things You Are and So What etc.

I finally leaned over and told him in my not so people friendly way that I was going to put a piece of tape abound the g below middle C and he was not to play below that on pain of a broken finger. He didn't like that comment. Oh well!

So then instead of doubling those kind of parts he decided he had the chops to play a harmony line with it.

So I have since talked to him (in a more friendly way) that there are times when I thought the bass needed to do those kind of lines as a solo and only occasionally would should he try and double or play a harmony part. So far so good. The other irritating part was that his sense of timing was not what it should be so he wouldn't always be in the same time as the bass which just made it worse. So it's turned into a project with him. I don't think he listens to any the classic jazz music to get a sense of what the greats have done. So I'm burning a couple of CD's with some great examples.

I think one problem he has is he is a trained classical pianist and only in the last couple years has taken up jazz. So he has some really great classical chops which equates to being able, physically to play anything without regard to the style and idioms that he's playing in.

Anyway that's my two cents worth.