Continuing the journey.

[Red Planet]

So some of you may have seen me go through a couple Basses in a short time. I ended up with a nice Wilfer that needed a little work. I got the work completed and the Bass is just phenomenal. I can not gush enough about how it sounds and plays. I think I am very fortunate to own this Bass.

I know I have a lot to learn as I go and certainly want to soak it all in as quickly as my little brain will allow.

I played my first gig last night with this Bass and already ran into a road block. I have a Realist pickup installed on the Bass and I'm happy with the tone of the thing.

Here is the problem. We were playing on a riser type carpet covered stage that was hollow and vibrated acoustically way too much with any of the low end. I'm playing through a Shuttle 9.0 through a NEO 2x10 and 1x15 cab. To get the volume I needed I would get low end rumble through the stage into my Bass causing feed back. I was able to control it for the most part but could not get as loud as I would have liked to.

How does one combat stage rumble?

My other concern was when I could not hear myself as good as I needed to, thus making me unsure of my intonation. This was a biggie for me. I could hear me but not good enough to accurately intonate all the time.

I had a blast playing last night, we have another gig tonight. I so much enjoyed rolling through songs like I'd Rather Drink Muddy Water, Route 66, and Caledonia on the Upright. It was such a pleasure.

[Eric Swanson]

While I had a little trouble visualizing exactly the setup/blocking of what you described, I have three thoughts, none/all/some of which may be helpful:

- One simple solution is to lift the cab off of the floor, one way or another. I have used chairs, milk crates, whatever. Helps give the sound some room to develop without immediately vibrating the floor. Also can make it easier to hear

- Use an EQ of some kind. When I worked routinely, I used a simple (old) MXR 10 band graphic EQ. This is an antique now; there are much more sophisticated parametric, etc. EQ's out there. Any good EQ can help you control the "rumble" frequencies without killng the bottom end.

- If playing at higher volumes, two cabs, or two amp/cabs, with independent volume controls, can chill out a lot of hateful stuff. One unit pointed at you and the drummer, functioning essentially as a monitor, so that you can both hear the bass, with the second, louder cabinet or amp pointed at the house.

If you are playing someplace with a good PA (and sound engineer!), with monitors, and you have time to set levels well, you could let the PA monitors do most of your onstage stuff for you. Use your cab to point at the house and rely on the stage monitors to hear you and the band. It all depends on the gig, the house, and the rest of the equipment at hand.

For a small gig with no engineer, raising the cabinet and using an EQ can help a lot. The next level of volume would call for the two amp/cab setup. The larger hall can rely more on the PA for onstage awareness.

[Roger Davis]

Can you get Auralex Gramma amp supports in US? They have foam feet and uncouple the speaker from a boomy riser or stage.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Eric Swanson

- One simple solution is to lift the cab off of the floor, one way or another. I have used chairs, milk crates, whatever. Helps give the sound some room to develop without immediately vibrating the floor. Also can make it easier to hear

+1 Will cut some of that low end rumble and make it much easier to hear pitch. With cabs on the floor, much of the highs are going by you and you need to get it closer to your ears to hear what's going on. Try and position yourself so you're not right in front of the cab with the sound going directly into your bass.

Uncle Toad wrote a good post on this some time back. Do a search for it.

[Red Planet]

Will definitely try using something to take it off the floor. Have to study on not being directly in front of my amp. I did have it pointed towards our drummer and was a good 10 feet in front of my amp. We were in a medium sized room.

The cabs I have are the SWR Golight Cabs. I have the 8 ohm Golight 1x15, 8 ohm Golight 2x10, and 4 ohm Golight 4x10.

I wonder if using the 4x10 (with it's casters) would be enough to reduce the floor coupling?

Normally I use the 1x15 because of it low end thump but that seemed to be a problem with this stage. I added the small Golight 2x10 to add some upper punch last night.

I do have a DBX 2X15 GEQ that I could stick in my rig to use as sort of notch filter. Not sure if I'd want to go to the trouble of using it tonight but I could use one side of it and turn the EQ off when going back to EB. Setting the EQ just for UB.

[Eric Swanson]

I certainly don't mean to be a spoiler, but you might get more good information/input if this was moved, or perhaps, continued in the "amps" etc. category (?). This is certainly ground folks cover, nightly. My information (and gear knowledge, at least) is horribly dated.

My experience with the 4 x 10 on casters is that, no, it is not high enough, but its better than nothing. It really isn't distance from the floor that starts the booming; its the sympathetic harmonic vibration that can get set up at certain frequencies. So, an EQ can help to isolate that and chill it out, if in fact, that is the trouble. Raising the cab (ideally to about chair height), tilting it back, etc., will help you hear yourself better, but you may still set a certain floor in motion, at the right frequency. You are right, though; the farther from the floor, the better. Even casters on a 4 x 10 are better than nothing.

When I used to use my 4 x 10 for louder gigs, I would use my Polytone as a monitor for the band and me, with the 4 x 10 (elevated, if possible) pointing at the house. Again, this was only if there wasn't a relatively sane, tasteful sound engineer at the board...

[drurb]

ES has given some spot-on and excellent advice. Given the venue the OP described, I suspect he had trouble with coupling to the floor and room resonances. Given that the stage was hollow, the former was likely the greater culprit, but hard to tell.

[Red Planet]

Just got in from tonights gig. This place had no riser at all. It basically had an large open area with a removable dance floor in front of us. The floor was very solid so I did not have any rumble issues.

I still had trouble getting loud enough to hear myself as well as I would like to without any feedback and I even decided to take my EQ. I found a couple frequencies to pull down that helped. I ended up moving the 4x10 off to my right side and pointing it at me. I had it at about a 45 degree angle so as to project forward but put sound straight in my ear too.

I should say we run the vocals and kick drum in the mains and just vocals in the monitors. Everything thing else is from stage volume. Drums, Organ, Piano, and Guitar, are what I'm up against. For a small band we are pretty loud and punchy. I would not say we are AC/DC loud but you can certainly hear us.

I might could try setting my 1x15 on the floor and raising my 2x10 up higher in an amp stand and just raise them both on rumbling hollow stages.

[Brent Nussey]

Take a towel or a piece of foam and thread it through the afterlengths of the strings. It will help.

Brent

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Red Planet

I might could try setting my 1x15 on the floor and raising my 2x10 up higher in an amp stand and just raise them both on rumbling hollow stages.

Try the 2x10 vertically and angled toward you on the 15 cab.

[drurb]

Maybe the Realist, with its reported susceptibility to feedback, is what ought to be changed if you are plying with a loud, punchy group.

[Red Planet]

Originally Posted by drurb

Maybe the Realist, with its reported susceptibility to feedback, is what ought to be changed if you are plying with a loud, punchy group.

Perhaps.

I doubt any Pizeo out there is immune to feedback. If I had to guess none of them would perform without flaw. I realize that is a pretty general broad statement but I'm willing to bet I'm right on that.

The challenge I think is in the EQ (getting a good near flat sound) and learning how to deal with each room circumstances on the fly.

I think this is going to be a bit of a struggle. My stinking band is loud. We really are not too loud for what we do and where we do it but we are just over the threshold of what I can do through an amp at that volume. Though I think as I get better at this I will find small ways to shave a little off here and there and maybe get a small improvement.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by drurb

Maybe the Realist, with its reported susceptibility to feedback, is what ought to be changed if you are plying with a loud, punchy group.

My thought as well. Although the Realist works well for me, I don't do any crazy loud gigs. When I played those in the past I found that the Full Circle gave me most of the great tone I wanted but was practically immune to feedback.
Maybe it's been mentioned already, but a high pass filter and phase reversal may help as well.
YMMV

[Red Planet]

Originally Posted by clink

My thought as well. Although the Realist works well for me, I don't do any crazy loud gigs. When I played those in the past I found that the Full Circle gave me most of the great tone I wanted but was practically immune to feedback.
Maybe it's been mentioned already, but a high pass filter and phase reversal may help as well.
YMMV

I really don't think were are crazy loud. It's just more the style of music.

Our guitar player either uses a Tweed Proluxe (30 watt Deluxe) dimed or a 61 Bassman through a Hotplate into a 1x12 Cab. Our keyboard Player use a Leslie for his Hammond and tow 2x10 cabs w/horn for his Piano. We run the vocals through two EV Dense Packs on stands and occasionally stick some kick drum in there. On occasion I will bring my Community Cabs when I'm feeling giving some studio quality to the mains.

We basically do Boogie Woogie type music. Blues, Swing, etc.....

I did use a High Pass filter last night. I have one built into my dbx 2x15. Did not think about the phase reversal will have to try that.

BTW running out and buying another Pickup is not in the cards right now. I need to pay bills.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Red Planet

...I doubt any Pizeo out there is immune to feedback. If I had to guess none of them would perform without flaw.

True, but that's not really the point. We're talking about matters of degree in terms of susceptibility to feedback.

[Red Planet]

Counter point.

All of them would probably feedback in my situation. A new pickup would most likely not solve anything.

I think I could make some small improvement with a different pickup but I think I'd get better/more results out of say picking the cab off the floor etc....

Never the less spending money right now is out of the cards and my Realist is brand new.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Red Planet

Counter point.

All of them would probably feedback in my situation. A new pickup would most likely not solve anything.

I think I could make some small improvement with a different pickup but I think I'd get better/more results out of say picking the cab off the floor etc....

Never the less spending money right now is out of the cards and my Realist is brand new.

I agree that getting the cab off the floor would probably help greatly. I mentioned that above with regard to having a hollow wood floor. Given the different placement of various piezos (e.g., on the body, in the adjuster, in the bridge wing), I wouldn't be so quick to assume that they all would be nearly equal in terms of feedback. Face it, the DB is an acoustic instrument. When it's successfully amplified at a high level, it is likely to be via a house PA with carefully placed monitors on stage. You can't immerse an amplifed resonant body in a field of high acoustic intensity and expect it not to resonate and produce feedback. So, yes, it seems that, for you, getting the cab off the floor, judiciously applying tone-shaping, adjusting relative phase, keeping the amp from firing at the bass, and using stage monitors would be your best approach.

[Red Planet]

Originally Posted by drurb

I agree that getting the cab off the floor would probably help greatly. I mentioned that above with regard to having a hollow wood floor. Given the different placement of various piezos (e.g., on the body, in the adjuster, in the bridge wing), I wouldn't be so quick to assume that they all would be nearly equal in terms of feedback. Face it, the DB is an acoustic instrument. When it's successfully amplified at a high level, it is likely to be via a house PA with carefully placed monitors on stage. You can't immerse an amplifed resonant body in a field of high acoustic intensity and expect it not to resonate and produce feedback. So, yes, it seems that, for you, getting the cab off the floor, judiciously applying tone-shaping, adjusting relative phase, keeping the amp from firing at the bass, and using stage monitors would be your best approach.

I agree. I do not think all pickups would be the same but I think the amount of difference would not be great enough to justify getting another pickup.

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by Red Planet

I agree. I do not think all pickups would be the same but I think the amount of difference would not be great enough to justify getting another pickup.

You'd be surprised - there are HUGE differences. This thread really belongs under 'Pickups & Amps' and if you go to that Forum and Search for 'Phil on Feedback' (Pheedback?) you'll get the best advice possible.

Good Luck!

[darjama]

We've got a semi-regular gig in a place that sounds very similar to what you're describing

I really like the standback, which will let you get the cab off the ground, and will tilt it up so you can monitor better, http://www.standback.net/ -- before using it I was having problems very similar to yours, boomy sound due to a poorly constructed stage and difficulty hearing myself.

We recently switched over to a single mic setup for the whole group, which seems to be working better for everyone. Well, it's not quite a single mic setup, I get a second mic.