Core K52 Q locally built, VS Shen Sb-180

engedi1 · #1 05-04-2011, 12:11 PM

I have recently come into the market for a new DB and have about $2500 to $3000 to spend. I have decided that a good quality hybrid is the best bang for my buck. I was formerly a bass major at Arizona State and would like a bass that gets a great arco tone within this price range, yet will also be great for jazz and country pickin. I have small hands and don't want a string length greater than 41.5" I just played a Shen Sb-180 that was very nice and had a way better arco tone than I thought it would. It has also had recent work done by our local guru and is in excellent playing shape.

I have also been talking to a luthier in Chattanooga (Grant Hull) who will make me a Core Collection K52Q This would be a hybrid top lam back and sides. He says the difference between this and the Shen is that the back of the Core is formed by hand where as the Shen is pressed into shape. Supposedly this provides a better tone. Also, the wood is supposed to be air dried for 25 years and come from Germany.

Can any one comment on these Core basses? Has anyone played one and can comment on their comparability to Shen's or Christophers? I really like the appeal of a local built instrument that I can keep tabs of the builder is there is a problem and he will finish it to my liking as well, which is very nice. Any thoughts?

engedi1 · #2 05-04-2011, 12:12 PM

Here is a pic of the Howard Core... website is http://www.howardcore.com/cgi-bin/sh....html&key=K52Q FYI, I plan to put Eudoxa's or Animas on it. I already have the Eudoxa G and D and am trying to decide what directly for the E and A if Ican't find an affordable E and A eudoxa

Eric Hochberg · #3 05-04-2011, 09:32 PM

The Core website says made in Czech Republic. Ask John Sprague on this forum how the Shen hybrids are made.

punkozuna · #4 05-05-2011, 08:17 AM

I'm guessing Core K52Q is a Strunal 5/20.

STRUNAL - výroba hudebních nástrojù

Not saying it's not a good bass. But shop for price and find out from your luthier if he really makes the bass - as your post seems to say.

drurb · #5 05-05-2011, 08:24 AM

I'm not a luthier and I don't play one on TV.

My understanding is that it's quite commonplace for plywood backs (and ply tops, for that matter) to be formed into shape. I'd be surprised if the workers in the Core factory hand-carve the plywood backs to shape. Even if they do, I'm not convinced that that would, per se, yield an improved sound.

How the back is formed is just one factor. I suggest that you play both the Shen and Core models in which you're interested and then decide. You'd likely do well to play others too. $2500-$3000 isn't chump change (at least, for me). Buy the bass in that price range (or a bit beyond) that speaks to you.

I also don't understand what you mean by "locally built." As far as I know (and I could be wrong) Core basses are completely assembled in the Czech Republic. That is, the parts are not shipped "in the white" for assembly in the USA. As such, they are not "built" locally.

BTW, is Grant Hull a double bass luthier? As far as I can tell, he's a luthier who builds and restores guitars. Building double basses aside, what's his expertise with regard to setting them up?

engedi1 · #6 05-05-2011, 08:46 AM

Gratefully I will be going go Chattanooga to meet Mr. Hull and play a bass that he is finishing up on Saturday, so then I'll be able to judge between the Strunal/Core and the Shen. As to locally built, what Hull has told me is that he orders a kit of parts crafted in Germany, and then assembles and finishes the instruments at his shop. He has been supplying me with photos of a build in progess (the one I am hoping to play on Saturday, and I have seen the "white" stages of the bass. This is why I am so interested, is that there seems to be an advantage of an instrument assembled at least so close to me. Is that rational thinking?
My biggest concern is with his set up as well, of course this is easily determined within a few minutes of playing the bass, but apparently a couple members of the Chattanooga Symphony (not the NY Phil I know) use his instruments as their backup basses, so they can't be too bad.
At the very least, he has got my attention enough to go down to Chattanooga to give his bass a shot. Thanks for the replies!

drurb · #7 05-05-2011, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by engedi1

Gratefully I will be going go Chattanooga to meet Mr. Hull and play a bass that he is finishing up on Saturday, so then I'll be able to judge between the Strunal/Core and the Shen. As to locally built, what Hull has told me is that he orders a kit of parts crafted in Germany, and then assembles and finishes the instruments at his shop. He has been supplying me with photos of a build in progess (the one I am hoping to play on Saturday, and I have seen the "white" stages of the bass. This is why I am so interested, is that there seems to be an advantage of an instrument assembled at least so close to me. Is that rational thinking?
My biggest concern is with his set up as well, of course this is easily determined within a few minutes of playing the bass, but apparently a couple members of the Chattanooga Symphony (not the NY Phil I know) use his instruments as their backup basses, so they can't be too bad.
At the very least, he has got my attention enough to go down to Chattanooga to give his bass a shot. Thanks for the replies!

Ah, good info and thanks for filling it in. Very interesting, indeed, that he gets the basses in the white and unassembled. It also seems that he's got quite a fair amount of experience with double basses. Thanks again for setting me straight.

engedi1 · #8 05-05-2011, 09:14 AM

Of course Grant has made his bones more as custom guitar guy and is not well known has a bass builder, and maybe that is why his price is good. It seems a little good actually, as his price is less than the Strunal's I have seen on various websites. Your advice of caution is well received, there is nothing like personally experience! The proof is in the pudding as they say.

nicechuckh · #9 05-05-2011, 01:57 PM

I'm interested in hearing your take on both instruments and how they compare.

engedi1 · #10 05-05-2011, 02:02 PM

I will certainly post my opinion. I was just at William's Fine Violins here in nashville, and was trying out a Shen Rogeri (sb-190) which is just like the sb180 except for fancier appointment I guess. I liked it decidedly less than the 180 I played at a friends house last week (this is one I could buy) The 190 had Heliocores on it which were ok.
His bass had graphite rods installed in the neck and had Obligatos except for an EP E string. I am not sure what the graphite rods did for the instrument. In the case of an electric bass, they add stability and help to remove dead spots. I felt his bass was the easiest bowing Hybrid I have sofar played, and t hat may have something to do with it. I am leaning towards getting this Shen unless I am just floored by the Core bass. It has also come to my attention that for not too much more money, I could get an upton hybrid, which has a lot of appeal, since their rep is really strong.

Steve Swan · #11 05-05-2011, 02:09 PM

Tough they share the same string length, the Shen SB 190, the Rogeri shape, is significantly larger in top outline and rib depth than the standard 3/4 size SB 180. The SB 190 has a distinctively different tone and presence than the SB 150 or SB 180.

engedi1 · #12 05-05-2011, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Swan

Tough they share the same string length, the Shen SB 190, the Rogeri shape, is significantly larger in top outline and rib depth than the standard 3/4 size SB 180. The SB 190 has a distinctively different tone and presence than the SB 150 or SB 180.

That's true, the upper bouts were fatter. Maybe I just didn't like the Heliocore strings or maybe my friends sb180 sounded better to me because it was older and broken in, or maybe I just liked the tone of that body shape better. Tough to say.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #13 05-05-2011, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by engedi1

That's true, the upper bouts were fatter. Maybe I just didn't like the Heliocore strings or maybe my friends sb180 sounded better to me because it was older and broken in, or maybe I just liked the tone of that body shape better. Tough to say.

What kind of strings were on the 180? I've never cared for the helicores at all.

engedi1 · #14 05-05-2011, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

What kind of strings were on the 180? I've never cared for the helicores at all.

the 180 had Obligato (some of my personal favorites) on the top strings, and an EP on the bottom string. I had never played an EP before, and liked it quite a bit. I was surprised at the arco tone of this bass, better than I thought it would be.
I agree with your Helicore statement, I can't stand them for pizz or arco.

Steve Swan · #15 05-05-2011, 05:58 PM

The Helicore Hybrids don't seem to be as good a match for solid top Shens as Spirocore mittel for many playing situations. Every player has his/ her own requirements.

engedi1 · #16 05-10-2011, 07:37 PM

Update: I went down to Chattanooga over the weekend and tried a 95% completed Grant Hull build. I was seriously impressed!!! He also had a $18000 wilfur that was really impressive! But back to my story...His bass fit me perfectly, having the 41.25 scale I am used to and narrow shoulders. he had a beautiful bridge and this really interesting lathed soundpost (sorta hourglassed shaped) that supposedly helps volume. It was strung with an old old EP set that sounded pretty decent on this bass.
I though his build quality looked good, and I really liked his hand-rubbed finish. I have attached a few pictures of this build, but mine will have a darker, Cleveland Standard like finish.
I was really impressed, he talked with me for about two hours about what kind of bass I would like and I decided to go with a new build from him, much to the dismay of the gent selling the Shen. The Shen was nice, but just not in this same league. Here is what I ended up ordering:
1. 3/4 41.25 scale Eb neck bass with hybrid top and lam sides, lam back (flamed)
2. The highest quality ebony he could order from Howard core (gauranteed 25 years air dried, same for the top)
3. Graphite endpin (He also makes his own version of the Atomic Endpin, may end up with that.
4. Super high quality tuning machine (the ebony Tyrolean kind that stick out funny)
5. bumpers for the sides
6. Bridge will be one of Dustins from Williams Fine Violins in nashville.
7. Best of all, he will take the bass to Dustin for its set up, which alleviated my only concern. He wants to learn Dustin's setup, and I LOVE the way Dustin sets up bridges and planes fingerboards. Many of the pros trust Dustin with their basses so this should work out.
8. Total cost: about $2700-$2800. Not too shabby really. Will take about 4-5 weeks to take delivery.

The waiting begins...

engedi1 · #17 05-10-2011, 07:40 PM

I am also struggling to figure out what strings to put on it. I have a 10 year old set of well used Spiros, maybe I'll just slap them on! I actually am leaning towards a set of BelCantos, as the Wilfur had those, and I really liked the way they felt and sounded on the Wilfur. I want strings with great arco tone as well as pizz, but pretty sure I don't want EP. I want a warm pizz tone, not a metallic tone, and the Belcantos seem to deliver this.

Eric Swanson · #18 05-15-2011, 05:33 AM

When the parts are bought "in the white" are the carcasses assembled, fully? More specifically, are the tops glued onto the ribs when the components arrive in the USA, or does your luthier do this?

+1 on all prior string comments. I have never understood the Helicores' continued existence; I had a set on my bass for awhile. As you say, they weren't really satisfactory for pizz or arco, IMHO. Other than that, they were great.

I like Belcanti as a all-around Bb string. While I may be in the minority, I find the pizz effective; warm, with plenty of growl, etc. The arco is plush, dependable, and even, if a bit bland (IMHO). It probably would be a good starting point, IMHO.

nachodaddy · #19 05-15-2011, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by engedi1

Please clarify (not a shill, why in the world would I be shill, if you met Grant you would realize how ridiculous this is) I paid $10,000 for my last bass which I had to sell, and have been around basses in the 20 to 50k range when I was getting my degree in bass performance. Are you suggesting I am so ignorant as to not know a decent bass when I see one? Mr. Joined talkbass two weeks ago, won't list your location, and per your profile, says you are really a guitarist? You got some cajones my friend.

You are assuming I don't know who Grant is, in which case, I'd have had nothing to say on this thread. Other than that, you also tried to put a whole lot of words in my mouth. Also, your two weeks is a bit off. At any rate, carry on, bud.

engedi1 · #20 05-15-2011, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Swanson

When the parts are bought "in the white" are the carcasses assembled, fully? More specifically, are the tops glued onto the ribs when the components arrive in the USA, or does your luthier do this?

+1 on all prior string comments. I have never understood the Helicores' continued existence; I had a set on my bass for awhile. As you say, they weren't really satisfactory for pizz or arco, IMHO. Other than that, they were great.

I like Belcanti as a all-around Bb string. While I may be in the minority, I find the pizz effective; warm, with plenty of growl, etc. The arco is plush, dependable, and even, if a bit bland (IMHO). It probably would be a good starting point, IMHO.

I am surpised at how many pro players I see using Heliocore. I was just at a nashville symphony concert Friday night and I saw a Helicore E string on the assistant principal's bass. In particular I don't like the E string, but maybe on his bass it sounds good, who knows. I am looking for a warmer tone than Spiros, but I have a really old set of spiros I can use as reference if the BC's don't do it for me.