Is it a counterfeit?

[Carl Johnson]

http://instruments.listings.ebay.com...istingItemList

Looks too clean to be so old; no rib cracks, no legit bow scars. And if it is really that special a bass why is it still a 3 string?

Hope I’m wrong but it looks crooked.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Carl Johnson

http://cgi.ebay.com/Giovanni-Battist...QQcmdZViewItem

Looks too clean to be so old; no rib cracks, no legit bow scars. And if it is really that special a bass why is it still a 3 string?

Hope I’m wrong but it looks crooked.

This is from the same guys in Hungary that have tried to pass Basses as Goffriller, Bergonzi, Ruggeri, Panormo, Ongaro, Bisiach etc, etc, etc...

The signs:
Dry looking Varnish and washed edges (what old Bass would not have been preserved by now with a clear coat or two?)

Tool marks around the Scroll

Square cut Scroll graft sloppily done (this style is done by many as well but all the fakes have this as well.)

Sale origin from Hungary (I have seen his name before on other Basses as well as another guy working out of Germany. Some of these are sent to Italy and sold from a Dealer there as an authentic Bass as well. You just have to know all the names in the 'gang' to be aware of them and their tricks.)

The Price! (If it seems too low but still expensive, then it is a fake. A real G.B.Ceruti would go from 200-400k or more today.)

Condition (after 200 years or more there would be more nicks from the Bow around the Bouts and Corners than you could count as well as wear.)

Smell (the inside of the Bass will smell old and dusty but also have a chemical smell as well like varnish or solvent used to fake the natural musky scent of something old.)

Interior color (the inside of the Bass will be washed evenly with a coffee color stain to fake oxidation. Under the Bars or Blocks you might see 'white' wood something similar to Bikini Tan lines.)
-------------------------------------------------------------
I have been told that the Hungarians are the best Antiquers in the world. They are also very good makers. These makers could easily go legit and be the best of the crowd if they would just come clean and use their real names/labels. The other factor is that every one that I have played or heard about suspected from Hungary was a very good sounding Bass and usually well made.

[DallasBoy]

The traditional folk music of Hungary includes bands made up of instruments that look like double basses but they are strung with only three strings. See attached. And, they are played them with a pick. A great big pick. The bridge on those three-stringed instruments are flat like the fingerboard; it is much shorter and reduces the angle across the bridge. Although the instrument in this picture appears to have rosin on the fingerboard, there is no way to bow this thing!

[robobass]

It does look like rosin. Could it be dust from a felt pick?

On the Ceruti, it does look really old and beautiful. Besides Kens very good analysis, how the heck could an instrument like this be set up this way? If the instrument was owned only by well fed classical players, it would have been converted to four strings long ago, or at least have modern strings and a properly fitted bridge. And yeah, it would at least have some bow nicks and such. If the seller got the bass from some 90 year old folk player who would actually play with such a setup, I really think there would be plenty of gigging scars. It can't be real. Still, you've got to tilt your hat. These people are superb craftsmen!
Robobass

[larry]

Free shipping!!!

[Jake deVilliers]

One look inside with a light and mirror would tell you all you need to know.

That being said, its a beautiful bass and I'd love to hear it.

[Ken McKay]

I am glad KS is here, I might think it is a real old bass, although probably not the real label. A couple of things don't make sense to my eye though. What is supposed to have been done on the peg head where the posts come out? Looks like some wood filled in there. What for? Plus I don't see enough real wear on the edges. There are no top cracks and that is odd. The ribs look very convincing to me.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

I am glad KS is here, I might think it is a real old bass, although probably not the real label. A couple of things don't make sense to my eye though. What is supposed to have been done on the peg head where the posts come out? Looks like some wood filled in there. What for? Plus I don't see enough real wear on the edges. There are no top cracks and that is odd. The ribs look very convincing to me.

Copied from the Net Instruments Ad;


Not Real? My Social Security Card is older!

[LouisF]

I believe a London dealer had problems with these guys (if not this particular "maker"; then a fellow countryman). The work is very good and it's a shame - in a way - they just don't make honest basses because they could probably sell them at a fair - if significantly more modest - price.

LF

[robobass]

It will be interesting to see where this goes. Hungary is now part of the EU, and presumably has accepted all the legally binding conditions associated with this status. If the sellers do manage to pass the bass to some rich collecter who later decides it is a fake, they could face some serious criminal charges. As everyone has said in so many words, it seems more logical to just sell the bass as what it is: a superb copy. Less money, but no prison time! I must note that I am no expert on Italian instruments and I could be wrong, but this one just cries out "scam".
Robobass

[robobass]

Oh yeah, and how about that "Heart of Beauty" in English on a brand new looking tailpiece?
Robobass

[Ike Harris]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Copied from the Net Instruments Ad;


Not Real? My Social Security Card is older!

You look pretty good for your age, Ken!

[toman]

If they're so good at antiquing, why then isn't the wear on the instruments more believable? You'd think they would learn, eh? This whole thing doesn't really make a lot of sense, at least to me. I don't claim to know a lot about old basses, and I'm certainly no collector with $$$$$$ to spend; yet even to me it's pretty obvious the bass being discussed is not the real thing...

[CultureSliver]

Originally Posted by DallasBoy

The traditional folk music of Hungary includes bands made up of instruments that look like double basses but they are strung with only three strings. See attached. And, they are played them with a pick. A great big pick. The bridge on those three-stringed instruments are flat like the fingerboard; it is much shorter and reduces the angle across the bridge. Although the instrument in this picture appears to have rosin on the fingerboard, there is no way to bow this thing!

I would guess that the instrument pictured is a sort of fiddle and not at all a bass instrument. That being said, it could indeed be rosin and I do believe that a majority of the playing involves chording and muting(used for more of a secular, non-virtuoso style of music).

[LouisF]

This was in today's Times on one of London's most respected high end antiques dealer maufacturing "new antiques" of million £££ pieces (mostly by breaking down old cabinets and using the veneers and wood). He fooled some very sophisticated dealers and clients. The link and first few paragraphs are below. Makes the Hungarians look like amateurs!


Louis

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/22/garden/22hobbs.html?

Furniture Restorer’s Allegations of Deception Shake Antiques Trade

By CHRISTOPHER MASON and CHRISTOPHER OWEN
Published: May 22, 2008

MICHAEL SMITH, a prominent decorator in Los Angeles, was staggered when a friend called from London in early April with the news: John Hobbs, a London antiques dealer known for superb English and Continental furniture, stratospheric prices and wealthy American clients, had been accused by his longtime restorer of selling fakes.

WHO MADE IT?

A flier, center, from John Hobbs, for an “Italian early-19th- century” table. Dennis Buggins, Mr. Hobbs’s restorer, said he made the piece from odd parts, like a panel that originally joined the two end sections of a wardrobe, top, and a set of legs.

Mr. Smith said he was panicked at the thought that two very expensive mahogany chests of drawers he acquired for a California financier in September — described on the invoice as a fine pair of English commodes, circa 1830 — might not be worth anything close to what he had paid.

His fears might have been justified. Detailed workshop records and photographs provided by Dennis Buggins, Mr. Hobbs’s restorer for 21 years, indicate that Mr. Smith’s commodes were designed and fabricated between 2004 and 2006, using materials plundered from several old wardrobes and a linen press. The cost, Mr. Buggins said, was about $55,000. The asking price was 365,000 pounds ($736,000 at the time), a retail markup of more than 1,000 percent, although Mr. Smith managed to pay $450,000.


etc

[Eric Swanson]

$450K and you can't even play them. Thanks for sharing this, LouisF. Great for perspective...

[LouisF]

You're welcome!

[robobass]

What happened to the bass? The original Ebay listing seems to have been taken down. I didn't bookmark it. Anybody know if it sold?
Robobass

[robobass]

Never mind, I found it. Never got a bid.
Robobass

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I was in NY a few days ago and Biase has a real G.B. Ceruti in restoration. I asked how it was doing as it was packed up in the back and he replied 'it's in mourning'..lol

He has been re-building a full sized English Bass for me on all his spare time and has not touched the Ceruti since he started my Bass and can't get to it till mine is out of the Shop. His has not only the original Scroll but the original tuners as well, a 4-stringer.

Ceruti was a Cremona maker and pupil of Storioni. I would not expect to see that muddy dark varnish (stain?) as shown on the fake listed above. Cremona did not get it's reputation by making cheap varnishes and Ceruti was a top maker succeeding the shop of Storioni no doubt.

Besides just looking to see if the Bass is really old or not you must look to see if the instrument is 'right' as far as the makers work goes even if it was made across the street in the same period.

This Italian bass i played for almost 20 years when I worked in NY had a label from Giacomo Rivolta, 1822 with other stuff written and printed on the label as well. I have two appraisals from top guys in the '70s as a Rivolta. Peter Eibert did the Restoration when I bought the Bass back in 1973. When I picked it up towards the end of the year I asked him, is the Label authentic? He replied "YES, but not for this Bass!". I wasn't sure what he meant but still it was an old Italian Bass and afterwards I got 2 appraisals that is was Rivolta who was a famous maker in Milan in the first quarter of the 19th century. In 1975 Biase pointed out that the restoration by Eibert was done on the 'heavy side' with a bit too much wood put in the Bass. The Top had been completely sunken in when I bought it so it got some breast patch work after re-shaping and a Bass bar as well as a host of other things. I then gave the Bass to Biase less that 2 years after Eibert's restoration to open up and clean up some excess wooded areas. When he finished the Job the Bass sounded so much better and stayed that way for the next 15 years totally stable.

Looking inside the Bass with the Top off he pointed to the Linings and corners and said 'this looks similar to a Busan I just worked on. This Bass was 'old' in 1822!" So, yes I had an Italian bass and yes the Label was 100% real. It just wasn't from that exact Bass. How and why did the Label get in there?

Is this boring you? If you want to know my theory on the Label, ask and I will continue. I am almost done. Just leaving a little mystery for you.

This does apply 100% here because if this Bass were less than the Label is and sold today it could be a small problem but at least one thing is right about the Bass I had, it was an old Italian and not any sort of fake..