Current makers, qualities of instruments (with economics tangents aplenty!)

[Blakewdm]

Hello all,
I am looking to get opinions on basses currently being produced. makers like Chris threlkeld,Mario lamarr, schnitser..(sp). And hatchez. I would like to know what the opinion of sound is, whether it be orchestral or more a treble solo voice, quality of the work, and success that the instruments have found! Please feel free to add other makers, these were the ones that came to mind.
Blake

[JKincaid]

I have 2 modern-maker basses. One from your list (Threlkeld) and another, IMHO, worth some consideration.

The Threlkeld is not one of Chris's typical instruments. The body is quite small (the ribs are probably around 5" deep on the upper bout and maybe 6" on the lower. The bass plays like a dream. Very low string hight, easy response, easy to get around, etc.

It has a deeper,darker sound but not really the "boom" that you'd expect in a larger orchestral bass. All things considered, it can still produce a good amount of volume.

The workmanship is great. Chris likes to give his instruments unique looks. For example, mine has a lot of blood wood accents and some brass inlays on the body. Also, this bass has been in the dry Colorado climate for the past 2 1/2 years and I haven't had any issues with cracks or seam openings.

I'm going to make some general pros and cons for the 5 or so instruments of his that I've seen and played.

Pro:
good workmanship
cool designs
sound quality: (especially on his larger-size models) they tend to have a big, cushiony sound. The sound is very pleasant to hear.
great setup: the ones I've tried have generally all responded quite easily
price: I think he may have raised his prices but still, I think you get quite a bang (boom) for your buck.

Cons:
sound quality: (this can be a pro or con depending on what you're looking for in a sound) I haven't heard any of his recent basses but, in general, the ones I've heard don't tend to have the most complex sound
finish: the finish is debatable. Mine has a satin finish and has held up amazingly well and I think it looks beautiful however, there are other new instruments out their that I like more.

The other new maker I'd suggest checking out is Christopher Savino. He works at Robertons in NM (violin turned bass maker). He's only made 2 so far and is currently building #3 (I have #1) which, I think may be ready for the ISB convention. The model he makes is based on a Cavalini that is owned by the Curtis Institute (maybe you're familiar with it).

Pros:
good workmanship
Looks: very attractive design. The finish is beautiful.
Sound quality: This bass has the ability to create quite a bit of sound (both arco and pizz). I wouldn't describe it as a bright or dark sound. It kind of has the qualities of both. In any event, to my ears, it has a very beautiful singing quality to it but also quite a bit of boom. Also, the pitches are very clear and will ring for days.
Setup: the setup is good, nothing really to complain about (but I think the Threlkeld may be better)

Cons:
Price: it's in the same price range as a Laborie. IMVHO, the price of new instruments is going through the roof. I don't think they should cost anywhere near what they do. That being said, I still bought it...
Finish: The finish, while beautiful, tends to chip rather easily. I've had to take extreme care to keep it from getting damaged.
Response: The response, while good and getting better, has been a little on the tight side. Part of it may be it needing break in or my needing to learn how it needs to be played. Either way, it's becoming easier and easier.


*edit*
If forgot to mention that while I do often use the smaller Threlkeld at work, this model would probably be considered more of a solo or travel type of instrument.

[PaulCannon]

If I was looking to buy a modern orchestral bass, the first two names to come to mind are Hatchez and Laborie. I've had limited contact with basses from Lamarre, Schnitzer, Arvi, Jackstadt and Threlkeld, but not enough to make any serious comments. The Lamarre's and the one Schnitzer I've tried were gorgeous.

I've tried maybe 8 or 9 Hatchez basses, including two made in the last year. I've seen two basic models, one being a bit larger than the other. The large ones have a big, complex sound right away. They don't seem to need much breaking in. His set up is impeccable, and the craftsmanship is stunning. There are a number of guys who have won jobs recently with these basses, so I guess the "success" rate is positive. The more recent basses have been the best I've seen.

I own a Christian Laborie (Quenoil model) and have visited his shop. I think he's one of the great makers of our time. His work is flawless, and the materials he uses are the best money can buy. Unlike Hatchez, his basses need some time to break in and can sound pretty raw at first. He makes a few models, which you can see on his website. If you're looking for an orchestra bass, I really love the Ceruti model. I've heard the Busan is also very nice, but I've never tried one.

[Illfavor]

It seems like the prices of modern "good" instruments are really skyrocketing. Do the Laborie's and Hatchez's really sound twice as good as the Jakstadts, because they are nearly twice the price. I realize the prices are going as high as people are willing to pay for them, but for someone looking for a job-winning bass, going over 30k doesn't seem necessary. Jaks, Krutz, Cole, Grunert, all for 30k or less, and I'm pretty sure they're fit to win a job. I may be wrong, because I haven't won one yet. I was once told that if you're buying a bass over 40K, you're probably buying a name, and that's held true in all my searching.

Not sure how others feel about this, but I would like some feedback.

[PaulCannon]

Originally Posted by Illfavor

It seems like the prices of modern "good" instruments are really skyrocketing. Do the Laborie's and Hatchez's really sound twice as good as the Jakstadts, because they are nearly twice the price. I realize the prices are going as high as people are willing to pay for them, but for someone looking for a job-winning bass, going over 30k doesn't seem necessary. Jaks, Krutz, Cole, Grunert, all for 30k or less, and I'm pretty sure they're fit to win a job. I may be wrong, because I haven't won one yet. I was once told that if you're buying a bass over 40K, you're probably buying a name, and that's held true in all my searching.

Not sure how others feel about this, but I would like some feedback.

The economics of it seem pretty convoluted to me, and I'm sure there's more to the equation than I understand. There may be some level of "hype" behind Hatchez and Laborie, but it's coming from the top of the profession. A substantial number of well-regarded players and teachers have bought their own and recommended them to their students. I'm inclined to agree with them that there is something very special about these makers. The craftsmanship and the quality of materials are top-of-the-line, and the quality of the sound is breathtaking.

I bought my Laborie (Quenoil copy) in September directly from the maker. Even picked it up in person (I took some pictures of his shop and the bass). The bass was 21,000€, or about $31,000 at that time. His prices have gone up slightly since then, but Christian was very surprised to hear what his basses were selling for in the States.

[foilracer]

Thank you Paul, for that great set of pictures...-Al

[PaulCannon]

Originally Posted by foilracer

Thank you Paul, for that great set of pictures...-Al

My pleasure. Unfortunately, I took no pictures of the incredible meals his wife prepared for us. Christian knows how to treat a customer. As much as I like Robertson's, they have never made me dinner.

[Jason Sypher]

I think there is a big difference between 25k and 40k. In general I've found 10k to be a pretty true pricepoint for major differences in what you get for your money (10/20/30/40/50...). I find that you can get a lot of bass for 40k, enough for just about anyone. There are nicer basses but after that you really own a museum piece and the usefulness and practicality factor begins to fall. I will not forget my first Laborie because it was clearly at a different level from other new makers I've tried. I would live to try a mythical Hachez someday and expect to have a similar reaction.

[Mike Arnopol]

I like my new Golia bass . I've tried many of the new basses mentioned and The Golia sounds as good or better than any new bass I've tried. He uses the same Italian poplar that has been used for centuries in Italy. I wanted a huge sound and very easy fast response. And dark but pointed enough to cut through. He named this bass L'Empatico. That seems to descirbe my bass as he seemed to read my mind and nailed it. Anyone near Chi town is welcome to stop by and check it out.
By the way, all of the luthiers mentioned make great instruments and are very reputable guys.
If you search you can find pics of my bass. Huge lower bout, very playable upper. It's one of the few basses that if I set my strings higher I can get a huge sound arco or pizz. A low end like a Hawkws Panormo but a more responsive G string and much easier responce. If I keep my strings lower I can get a beautiful more legato sound pizz and still making a lot of sound arco. To me many large basses can put out a lot of sound but with slower response and more effort to get the top "moving" Not so here. I can get as easy response very ppp or fff . Usually you have to pick your compromise----easy response vs. upper dynamic range (how far you can "push" it). Or darkness in sound and the ability to cut through an ensemble. I don't know how he did it. Maybe alchemy.

[Illfavor]

Paul, what are the Laborie's going for in the U.S.? 40k or so? I'm strongly considering heading out to Robertson's to check out the two the appear to have in inventory, but I need to know if it's out of my price range. I'd really like to stop at 35K, as I strongly feel I should be able to get a solid instrument at or below that price. Maybe Aaron will be feeling generous ^.^.

[PaulCannon]

Originally Posted by Illfavor

Paul, what are the Laborie's going for in the U.S.? 40k or so? I'm strongly considering heading out to Robertson's to check out the two the appear to have in inventory, but I need to know if it's out of my price range. I'd really like to stop at 35K, as I strongly feel I should be able to get a solid instrument at or below that price. Maybe Aaron will be feeling generous ^.^.

A friend of mine bought a Ceruti model fit with an extension for $45,000.

[jedfritz]

I purchased an Aaron Reilley bass a year ago. This is a large bass, 46 1/2" back, 20" across the top bout, 26 inches across the bottom with 10" rib depth. String is a comfortable 41". The back and sides are poplar. Due to the rib depth and the poplar the sound is dark and complex with good power. I do like the varnish also and Aaron loves to antique his finishes. I am very happy with it. His prices are very reasonable. My bass is his Opus 6. I think Reilley basses are worth a look.

[KJPbop]

Greetings! Mind sharing with us how much you paid, relative to it being "very reasonable" ?
Regards, KJPbop

[Robin Ruscio]

Aaron Reily mentioned he could make me a bass for the low 20's. I think he's been making one this spring for the ISB.

Jed, you have any pics of yours?

[bassa]

HI, Chris Savino's sister here (yes, I'm a bassist!)

you observe:

"Price: it's in the same price range as a Laborie. IMVHO, the price of new instruments is going through the roof. I don't think they should cost anywhere near what they do. That being said, I still bought it..."

When you consider the not just the hours put in, but the years put in that precede mastery, and just how much hard physical work goes into building a bass, making it a field in which one's best years might span 2 decades, well, I scarcely think the luthier's earnings are through the roof. As orchestral players, too, we might be mindful that there's a sentiment that we shouldn't cost anywhere near what we do.

Not saying anything you don't already know, but I still wanted to say.

Since I live in Cleveland I was able to pop into the VSA convention and play Chris's opus 2. Gorgeous and so playable. I'm insanely proud of him

[GerardSamija]

I've only just finished my first bass, so take this for what you will... but I have made a few violins and a 'cello besides and have been doing repair work full time since 1993, so do know how to get these things done fairly well. My labour rate for the past few years has been $50/hour, which is quite low in my area. Some charge as much as $135/hour. I spent approximately 650 hours building this first bass, not including the travel trunk I made last week. It's an instrument with several innovative elements, took a fair bit of thought and there were some tricky stages in the development. I wouldn't expect my next bass to take more than about 500 hours. Materials for this bass cost approximately $5,000 - the wood is really premium old stuff from Reid Hudson, then there are tuners from KC Strings, a very nice fingerboard from Lemur, strings, $200 for loads of spirit of gum turpentine which had to be 'aged' down to a honey like consistency for the varnish cook and all sorts of bits and pieces. My next bass will use poplar for the back and sides most likely, dramatically reducing that cost and also saving a bit on labour as it's easier to carve and smooth.

If I sell my bass for $25,000, the math is simple enough to show my labour per hour:

$25,000 - $5,000 (labour) = $20,000 divided by 650 hours = $30.77/hour. So a $19/hour discount below my usual labour rate. Some might say that $31/hour is a lot. They might also be people doing unskilled labour for minimum wage, here I've been studying luthiery since the beginning of 1986, and practicing full time since 1993. That counts for something, right? Compare to say, a dentist, who goes through some years of university (8? 10?) and then immediately on setting up a practice charges over $200/hour, usually closer to $500/hour. Sure a dentist has overhead. And I don't?

I'm not sure what price I'll get for my bass. The $25,000 figure is just an example. Initially mine was to be priced at $20,000, but that was 11 years ago. I've stopped working on it a lot of times, sometimes for several years running, as the work load in restorations and setups has often been heavy, and then there's raising a couple of kids, my wife working part-time, and there was a 3 year delay for my machinist to get busy making my neck adjustment mechanism. That thing was a late development, something not in the original plans, and it certainly adds value as the smaller airline-worthy trunk will mean thousands of dollars per year in savings for a travelling bassist, considering some flights within Canada can cost an additional $1,500 one way for a traditional bass trunk. And depending on how the ISB competition turns out for my bass, I wouldn't be shy about charging a little more for a successful result.

So over-priced modern basses? I'm not really seeing that. Jim Ham's are up in the $40's somewhere I think. He's booked for years, bassists more than happy to pay his asking price as his are proven products with a number of very useful innovations incorporated. A lot of modern makers are coming up with very decent sound, and that's worth something, especially when they are consistent in such results as the maker's name will in time become recognised as having value for the ages, resale prices guaranteed.

My personal hope is that one day money will fail utterly and that I can finally do what most appeals to me; making instruments and giving them away to those who are most deserving, based on my own judgment. That would be very satisfying. Unfortunately I am stuck, as we all are for now, in economic circumstances which demand we make a living. I have rent and food to pay for, kid's schooling and health care, insurance, whatever. I don't drive and don't operate a shop, working out of my home, so I am able to charge less than some other luthiers as I save on those expenses. I charge what I need to survive, help my family thrive, and make more instruments. My goal, as ought to be the goal of every luthier, is to help make better music. Why else would we be doing this work? If I were interested in buying a summer cottage or even owning my own home any time soon, I'd be in another line of work, hating the work, but loving the money. Somehow greed and luthiery don't really go together. I leave the greed to the dealers with their 30% and higher mark-ups.

[PaulCannon]

Originally Posted by GerardSamija

I've only just finished my first bass, so take this for what you will... but I have made a few violins and a 'cello besides and have been doing repair work full time since 1993, so do know how to get these things done fairly well. My labour rate for the past few years has been $50/hour, which is quite low in my area. Some charge as much as $135/hour. I spent approximately 650 hours building this first bass, not including the travel trunk I made last week. It's an instrument with several innovative elements, took a fair bit of thought and there were some tricky stages in the development. I wouldn't expect my next bass to take more than about 500 hours.
If I sell my bass for $25,000, the math is simple enough to show my labour per hour:

$25,000 - $5,000 (labour) = $20,000 divided by 650 hours = $30.77/hour. So a $19/hour discount below my usual labour rate. Some might say that $31/hour is a lot. They might also be people doing unskilled labour for minimum wage, here I've been studying luthiery since the beginning of 1986, and practicing full time since 1993. That counts for something, right?

Congratulations on your first bass. That's got to be very satisfying. Pics or it didn't happen.

$25,000 seems steep to me for a first attempt, but it sounds like you've got the credentials. Good luck at ISB.

[GerardSamija]

Thanks for the well wishing, though really it seems 'first attempt' is a bit of a throw-away comment. Having made my first violin in 1987 and a number of instruments since, it's scarcely a first attempt. First bass sure, but instrument #12 or #13, can't remember exactly. And I have well over 500 bassists as clients, several hundred players of smaller fiddles, and generally bassists say their basses sound better when I have set them up or restored them. Can't recall ever hearing a bassist say their instrument got worse. All that practice and knowledge goes a long way, where for pure makers who don't do restoration work I'd expect a first bass to be pretty raw in a lot of ways... and that's what I have seen over these long years in working on a lot of different basses.

Peter Chandler for instance was very productive, but there are a lot of areas where his work could have been a lot cleaner for long term structural stability, for beauty, and for sound. As it was he tended to get about 1 in 4 sort of right in the sound and it was largely a matter of luck, as his approach was that of a numerical copyist. No meaning to put down that fine man who was so very generous to young musicians especially, donating about 1/3 of his work to youth orchestras as he was financially able to do so. I found him a delightful person to talk with. But without a deep understanding of the physics of instrument design, there really isn't a lot a maker can do but hope for a good sound and then see if it turns out that way on stringing up. Of course there is always an element of excitement on first hearing a new one, but when the theory is solid and its implementation has been thorough, a fulfilling outcome is almost inevitable. It's like an athlete's training and preparation for an event. Do all the work, not just parts of it, and the outcome will be the very best that athlete is theoretically capable of demonstrating. Apply only the easy or obvious parts and the result will be mediocre, with the odd bit of good luck proving to win the day.

When I have time, probably in a couple of weeks, I will post more pictures on my site. For now here's one rather bad shot with my little pocket camera:

[Eric Hochberg]

I look forward for taking it for a spin at ISB! It's a beauty!

[GerardSamija]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

I look forward for taking it for a spin at ISB! It's a beauty!

All the bassists leave their big belt buckles at home for that, right? ;-) I've allowed for players to try it at the convention as that's the most important feedback for me, but frankly the potential for accidents horrifies me. And I can't afford insurance right now, just stretched way too thin with all the expenses of the trip. I'm bringing my little boy along for the train ride down from Vancouver. Should be a heck of an adventure for him, though I'm guessing a few days of so many basses and bassists might make him a little crazy. He's used to it all around the house and has never damaged an instrument, so I'm not worried about him in that regard at least.