Date this Bass! (not dinner and a movie..lol)

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I got this Bass less than a year ago and since then and up until a few hours ago believed it to be a 19th century Bohemian Bass.

When I first examined the Bass there was a label on the center crossbar that said;
Frantisek Bilek
Zhotovil L.P. 1947

I assumed at first it was a repair label. Since then I bought a used set of Jalovec Books which concentrate more on the eastern makers than books like Henley. This still may be an older bass with just a repair from Bilek but we still are not sure.

Bilek was born c.1890 and died on 12/5/57. He trained with and assisted Josef A.Cermak in Kutna Hora (a pupil of Benjamin Patocka) and then for 9 years worked for Bohuslav Lantner in Prague(Praha). Bilek established his own business in 1917 and is listed in Jalovec as doing 'Modest Work'.

If HE is the maker then I was right on two things. The Bass IS Bohemian and made in Prague as well. I guess with better internal inspection the age could be closer guessed. Still, it will be restored after the Summer and then get a second opinion on its age and if the label matches the Bass after the Top is off.

Another name in this picture that makes a connection in my mind is a Maker/Repairer named Josef Karhan. Like Cermak, he was also a pupil of B.Patocka, worked as an assistant for Cermak and later worked for Latner as a Repairer. The latter two are the same Shops that Bilek worked and trained in.

Like I have seen with the London School, these Bohemians were well connected amongst themselves. One exception is, these names are strange to me ear. How about you?

Here's a few pics from my link above;

[Uncletoad]

Francis Bellyache as he was known to his friends and closest colleages, was quite a fella. Named such as he loved frilly pink tutu's and was fond of complaining constantly. It was as if he was born to be a diva.

He spent most of his days bitching at the umpalumpas he'd hired to carve scrolls and hog away lumber in a top plate. They were as close as he could come to a C and C machine in those days. Yes a little cocaine and some numbing agents and those Umpas would work until their hands had worn all the way down to the elbow. Carve up two or three whole basses in a week they would.

All the while Francis practiced his ballet moves in the mirror dreaming of his first love, the stage and silvery pointe shoes.

[hdiddy]

Actually it's Francois Bellyache. It's pronounced Bey-e-ash. Bellyache. He's from Jambon-Au-Main, a hamlet on the border of France and Italy. We might have some other folks from there on this forum.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

Actually it's Francois Bellyache. It's pronounced Bey-e-ash. Bellyache. He's from Jambon-Au-Main, a hamlet on the border of France and Italy. We might have some other folks from there on this forum.

A "hamlet".

Nice one.

[Jake deVilliers]

Breakfast hamlets - awesome.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Francis Bellyache as he was known to his friends and closest colleages, was quite a fella. Named such as he loved frilly pink tutu's and was fond of complaining constantly. It was as if he was born to be a diva.

He spent most of his days bitching at the umpalumpas he'd hired to carve scrolls and hog away lumber in a top plate. They were as close as he could come to a C and C machine in those days. Yes a little cocaine and some numbing agents and those Umpas would work until their hands had worn all the way down to the elbow. Carve up two or three whole basses in a week they would.

All the while Francis practiced his ballet moves in the mirror dreaming of his first love, the stage and silvery pointe shoes.

So, your Date/Age guess IS...??

[ctregan]

It looks older than circa 1947.... but since the maker was in the twilight of his career, is it possible his skills were from the 19th century so the bass looks (and feels?) much older.

[riimodar]

Hi Ken,

I live in the Czech republic. I am not able to help you much with exact dating, however I cannot refrain from posting a few thoughts:

Yes, it is a typical czech bass. Mine has similar shapes of the body, the same LOB, also back and ribs from plain wood (not flamed). The varnish color and quality (or rather "quality" - espacially on the back side) is quite typical, I believe the varnish is in original state. However my bass has no purfling at the back, has different head carving, has a cheap beech neck and longer string length. Despite this, they look of similar origin.

You surely know it and I just repeat it for others: a common habit of most Czech shops (especially in the first half of the 20th century) was to buy finished or semi-finished instruments in Schoenbach, finish them and sell them with the label of the shop. Most of the shops have never built any bass, they concentrated on making violins and just retailed Schoenbach basses. My private guess is that this is also Schoenbach manufacture bass, although the purfling on the back is quite impressive and was not commonly used on cheap manufacture Schoenbachs. The purfling is probably the only way to identify the maker, otherwise the bass looks like a typical czech main-stream.

I showed my bass to several quite reputable Prague luthiers and they were very reluctant to say any certain date. Probably the Schoenbach production was very "conservative". I belive the luthiers are right when they say it is not easy to distinguish 1900 Schoenbach from 1930 Schoenbach instrument.

So my uneducated bet is Schoenbach, the 1st half of 20th century. 1947 seem a little too young, but it is not impossible that the bass was really builg in 1947. One of the Prague luthiers dated my bass (which has really the same "age impression") to 1950s, others dated it to the first half.

BTW, I am not sure of the reading of the label as "Shofovif" is not a Czech name. As the rest of label is in Czech (L. P.), I would expect a Czech name, not a Latin transcription. It could resemble a German name, however in 1947 (after the War) German names were not used so much as before. Many towns and villages in the Czech Republic had German names or at least German name variants before WWII. E.g. Schoenbach...

Radek

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Well, I had read that Benjamin Patocka had made or rather 'numbered' well over 5500 instruments and is highly doubted that he made many of these in his own shop. The Jalovec Book clearly states that they must have been Schoenbach 'boxes' meaning instruments purchased from factories there and finished up in-house or maybe even sold as-is on the cheaper versions.

One puzzle is the Tuners. They are original to the Scroll which matches the Bass. The Tuners look so old and customized as far as the plates go. I have only seen one other Bass with those exact tuners but cannot recall what it was or its age. Also, the Back edges are well worn up to and thru the purfling in some areas. Either this is older natural wear of the Bass or it had a hard life. It was brought here by a US Dealer about 7-8 years ago on a buying trip so it's a refugee Bass, not a Bass made for export.

On the name spelling of the town? "Shofovif", I am just guessing at the first letter. It actually looks like a '3' so I thought it might be an 'S'. maybe it is a 'Z' "Zhofovif" or "3hofovif"? An EXACT Label) spelling-wise is copied and printed in the Jalovec Book under Bilek along with three other Labels he has used in his time.

Being from the Czech Republic can you please educate us as to the distances between Schoenbach (in Czech?), Prague/Praha and Germany. I assume Germany is furthest west, then Schoenbach in the middle and Prague the furthest east towards Vienna on a similar latitude.

[riimodar]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

On the name spelling of the town? "Shofovif", I am just guessing at the first letter. It actually looks like a '3' so I thought it might be an 'S'. maybe it is a 'Z' "Zhofovif" or "3hofovif"? An EXACT Label) spelling-wise is copied and printed in the Jalovec Book under Bilek along with three other Labels he has used in his time.

So then it must be "Zhotovil", meaning simply "made"...

I happen to have Jalovec's book. I checked it and yes - there are 4 different labels for Bilek, two of them with "zhotovil" (made) but also one with "opravil", which means "repaired"! So apparently Bilek had a different label for repaires, but he did not use it for this instrument, so most probably he really built it.

[riimodar]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

One puzzle is the Tuners. They are original to the Scroll which matches the Bass. The Tuners look so old and customized as far as the plates go.

As for wooden pegs as such, my Prague luthiers concur they were used at least till 1960´s. Here is how the pegs look on my bass:

They also look pretty old to me (the thread looks quite roughly cut), but still "my luthiers" think they can date about 1950.

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Being from the Czech Republic can you please educate us as to the distances between Schoenbach (in Czech?), Prague/Praha and Germany. I assume Germany is furthest west, then Schoenbach in the middle and Prague the furthest east towards Vienna on a similar latitude.

Germany borders with the Czech Republic, Germany being further west but also further north. Schoenbach is only 4 km far from German/Czech frontier, but it lies in the Czech Republic, not in Germany! After WWII its German name was changed to a Czech name and now the town is known as "Luby". Schoenbach is approx. only 200km from Prague, but even today the journey from Prague to Schoenbach is not so fast and easy. Schoenbach is really a forlorn small town in a desolate land in the border mountains. Maybe that´s also why Schoenbach basses look older then they are. The time runs backwards in this land. Or at least so much slower than in Prague!

Vienna is south-east (yes - east!) from Prague. It is a common misunderstanding that communist countries were in the "east" Europe. But as you can see, Vienna is east from Prague. Germany, Austria, the Czech Republic - they all are in the central Europe. The west/east distinction was rather political then geographical.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by riimodar

So then it must be "Zhotovil", meaning simply "made"...

I happen to have Jalovec's book. I checked it and yes - there are 4 different labels for Bilek, two of them with "zhotovil" (made) but also one with "opravil", which means "repaired"! So apparently Bilek had a different label for repaires, but he did not use it for this instrument, so most probably he really built it.

You have been very VERY Helpful. My label is identical including the date to first one listed in the book and reads;
Frantisek Bilek
Zhotovil ~ L.P. 1947

So Zhotovil means 'made' in English? Then what does the L.P. stand for? Something to do with Prague/Praha?

It also has the circled FB on the left and the other circled design on the right. My Label in the Bass is slightly larger in size than the one in the Book. Perhaps the ones in the Basses were larger.

So, in your opinion is this Bass of mine made by Bilek himself in Prague in 1947 or is it a Schoenbach product labeled by him only?

Also, I want to point out to the readers that it is rare here in USA that we find Czech Basses with original Domestic labels in them as most of what we see are imports with dealer and brand type labels. This is one of the few Czech Basses I have personally seen that has an original type label and also just came over here a few years ago.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by riimodar

As for wooden pegs as such, my Prague luthiers concur they were used at least till 1960´s. Here is how the pegs look on my bass:

They also look pretty old to me (the thread looks quite roughly cut), but still "my luthiers" think they can date about 1950.



Germany borders with the Czech Republic, Germany being further west but also further north. Schoenbach is only 4 km far from German/Czech frontier, but it lies in the Czech Republic, not in Germany! After WWII its German name was changed to a Czech name and now the town is known as "Luby". Schoenbach is approx. only 200km from Prague, but even today the journey from Prague to Schoenbach is not so fast and easy. Schoenbach is really a forlorn small town in a desolate land in the border mountains. Maybe that´s also why Schoenbach basses look older then they are. The time runs backwards in this land. Or at least so much slower than in Prague!

Vienna is south-east (yes - east!) from Prague. It is a common misunderstanding that communist countries were in the "east" Europe. But as you can see, Vienna is east from Prague. Germany, Austria, the Czech Republic - they all are in the central Europe. The west/east distinction was rather political then geographical.

Yes, Central Europe but to people of my Generation where Germany was divided after WWII at Berlin as East and West Germany, anyplace from East Berlin on eastward is often but erroneously called Eastern Europe or at least by some, like me.. Sorry.. my bad..

Thank's so much for the History lesson. Also, as you stated that you don't post here often, I would wish you reconsider. You have so much local knowledge that the rest of us are just guessing or dreaming about. It would be great if you could join in and share whenever you have the time. Please!

[riimodar]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

So Zhotovil means 'made' in English? Then what does the L.P. stand for? Something to do with Prague/Praha?

Yes, "zhotovil" is past tens of "make" or "manufacture". The present tens (which you can look up in a dictionary) is "zhotovit". This word fell a little out of use in Czech, but it still can be heard.

L. P. is an exact Czech translation of latin A. D. (anno Domini).

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by riimodar

Yes, "zhotovil" is past tens of "make" or "manufacture". The present tens (which you can look up in a dictionary) is "zhotovit". This word fell a little out of use in Czech, but it still can be heard.

L. P. is an exact Czech translation of latin A. D. (anno Domini).

Thank you for your translations. I must add this though. A few Dealers and Luthiers have seen this Bass in person and on-line and do not believe the label matches the Bass age-wise. The majority of labels in Violin Family instruments (vintage ones) are false or do not match the instrument.

In this case, the Bilek label was either placed inside to name, as a repair by Bilek, and old Bass he some in 1947 and put a label or a slim chance that he made it. Since the label clearly says by translation 'MADE' and the professional that have seen the Bass say 19th century to early 1900's, then it is more than likely that the label itself is real but placed in the Bass to give it a name. Anti-dating though is much more common than post-dating so that remains a mystery to me. Also, it is just possible that the Bass aged quickly since 1947 and just appears to be older.

The answer here is that there is no answer.. Yet!

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Just got back from vacation, and find that I need to close this thread for further review. As much as I enjoy this kind of "historical interest" type of thread, the fact is that this bass is also for sale, which makes it a violation of the Commercial User Policy as far as I can tell. Here is the pertinent excerpt from the policy:

Originally Posted by Talkbass Commecial User Policy

Commercial users may not:

-- Create new threads about Product/Services
-- Post material referencing Product/Services in general question threads, such as "What is a good bass for me?"
-- Post material referencing Product/Services in general "what's new at..." threads
-- Comment on the products/services/character of competition (unless it is praise or recommendation). Doing so presents conflict-of-interest issues.
-- Post "generic" conversational non-answer posts regarding Product/Services that: praise Product; expand on Product features; are a self 'pat on the back'; are deemed to be part of a pattern of thread-bumping; otherwise contribute additional unsolicited Product information.
-- Post unsolicited photos of Product in the public forums, or submit PR in the public forums (email PR to pr@talkbass.com)
-- Post pricing information and other sales dialogue (must be confined to private conversations with TB users (PM or email)).

For the moment, this thread will be closed rather than deleted for several reasons:

1) To allow links to the thread to be sent to the other mod admins for further review;
2) To let any and all people following the thread understand the reason for the moderator action as regard the thread. While I'm confident that threads like this one are of great interest to bassists who appreciate rare and unusual instruments, the fact that the bass is for sale makes the thread a violation of site rules.

Originally Posted by excerpt from link at the beginning of OP

Features: Classic Bohemian/Prague School Orchestral Double Bass. This Bass is currently being offered "as-is", pre-restored at a greatly reduced price. This is one of my personal Basses and kept at home as my practice Bass rather than on display in my Shop.

Note: This is a quality sounding well made Double Bass that is currently being offered at a reduced 'pre-restored' price as-is! Sometime in 2008 if still in stock, the Bass will go into Restoration for some cosmetic repairs including...

Closed for the moment while the other admins weigh in.