DB as Investment Vehicle?

[rusag2]

Ok, so there are a lot of folks out there that buy vintage guitars as an investment. There aren't any more '57 Fenders being made, you know. And, at the same time, the investors can actually ENJOY their investment, almost literally, playing with their money.

So, beyond the pleasure of playing a bass, what are people's thoughts of buying a bass as a financial vehicle? Certainly, they're not as "liquid" as a guitar...and probably more expensive to maintain for 10 or 20 or 30 years than a guitar.

But, if somone might afford a $10K bass to play, would it make sense to shift some investments, if possible..maybe sell $40K in stock, and buy a $45K bass as an "investment you can play with?" (keeping the other $5K in reserve for repair and maintenance).

[Square Bear]

given the market over the past 2 years, it's probably a pretty safe bet!

[Eric Hochberg]

I guess I just wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket. The bass I bought 30 years ago "might" be worth 5x what I paid for it. Whereas, a 10% return will double your money every 7 years. How much do you need to see to make it worthwhile as a long term financial investment? I think you have better long term prospects with a pedigree orchestral instrument as that is the high end market. You'd have to find one that will be the right instrument for you to play for the next 30 years. Will you really enjoy playing this more than a 10K or 20K bass? Do you need it for your work? If not, I wouldn't put that much money there for the financial investment.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

Will you really enjoy playing this more than a 10K or 20K bass?

This, for me, is the crux of the matter. Your best "investment" bass may not be the one that you enjoy playing the most. Also, if it's an investment, you might not feel so comfortable with it as your working bass. That could relegate it to a corner in your home where it might serve as little more than a museum piece. I guess if you're gonna have a bass as an investment, you'd probably want to end up with two. For me anyway, if a bass I own ever ends up appreciating substantially in value, then it's icing on the cake.

[Dave Irwin]

This is an interesting question. It would be good if you could see stats on how some collectable basses have appreciated compared to inflation. Then there's a question as to whether a $45k bass will appreciate more than three $15k basses, say from some of the great luthiers on this site.
It's definitely the type of investment I'd want to sell off before getting close to retirement. Kind of like moving away from higher risk stocks to IRA's and CD's etc...

I hope you update the thread with what you learn and decide to do.

[MR PC]

As long as you aren't putting all of your eggs in one basket, why not? I wouldn't get so attached to the future profit factor though......in years down the road people may find it more important to invest in farmland rather than old instruments.

[longfinger]

If you crunch the numbers, do the math, I don't think this will make any sense from a financial point of view in relation to other economic investments available. (From the point of view of an end-user with one bass, not a dealer in basses)

If the better bass helps you get better paying work, then it could be worth it..(if the new salary justifies the expense)
If it's a hobby that does not lose you money, it could be worth it, but I doubt it will make you more money than other options.. You'll likely need good day job to support this hobby.
If you're crunching the numbers, you also should consider the extra yearly costs of insuring these basses.


=====

Here's a topic to stir up some debate..

About the 'pedigree orchestral instruments' being a better investments... I am proposing that this is false..

- It's not the 19th C anymore... Throughout the 20thc 'orchestral' music has undergone a steady decline in social and cultural relevance. In the USA/Canada, most orchestras likely could not survive on ticket sales alone, without taxpayer subsidies or corporate sponsors. Cultures do this to 'buy prestige' for a city or a company... (N.America being at root a european colony culture.)
But since the 20thc saw North, Central and South America develop cultures and voices of their own, with new sounds and music, buyers in the 21th century will want to pay money to have those 'heritage instruments' of the 20thC. The desire for 19th music will decrease, and with it, the desire for instruments suited for 19th music will eventually decrease.

The exception market being Europe, as they'll want to preserve their own musical heritage.

But the new rich folk of the Asia regions, Africa, South America, North America, Caribbean, are going to care less and less about preserving the instruments of Europe's past. And they'll (we'll) care less and less about 'buying class' by imitating Europe's culture.

At first, it will be about 'buying class' by imitating the USA (ugghh), but eventually that will change too. Each region will preserve it's own.


--
So back to your post...
If the desire for 20thC instruments, that made their sound known will increase, I propose that a current 10k bass may be better tied into that innovative culture and sound than a current 40k bass. And so, the current 10k bass may be a better investment for the future...4 decades down the road.


Maybe...
It's something to stir up a conversation during vacation time... Not sure how true it really is..

[D McCartney]

Doesn't the term "investment" imply that at some point you are going to realize a return? If you have a really nice bass, are you really going to sell it?

[hdiddy]

The only reason why it works for guitars is that there is an outsider market consisting of collectors who are willing to help drive up prices. It also helps you have guys like Keith Richards and Eric Clapton buying up all the vintage axes they can get their hands on.

It doesn't make sense for basses. IMO, basses must be played to also appreciate. Buying a fully carved bass to only let it sit in the closet for years doesn't get you much. A bass' sound is also part of it value. And the only way to increase this inherent value is by practicing it and playing it to help develop it's sound. A bass doesn't develop a good sound on it's own.

For the scheme to work, it would be better to have megabucks to pay for mega expensive instruments. Things worth > $50K or $100K. But at that point it gets silly, you might as well invest in something else that gives a better return, as has already been stated.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by longfinger

...If the desire for 20thC instruments, that made their sound known will increase, I propose that a current 10k bass may be better tied into that innovative culture and sound than a current 40k bass. And so, the current 10k bass may be a better investment for the future...4 decades down the road.

Interesting thoughts but consider that it still seems to be the case that the goal of luthiers and the sound, at least currently, deemed most desirable is that of those European instruments. It seems to be the case that modern makers strive to emulate them.
Hmm.....

[Square Bear]

Originally Posted by longfinger

If you crunch the numbers, do the math, I don't think this will make any sense from a financial point of view in relation to other economic investments available. (From the point of view of an end-user with one bass, not a dealer in basses)

If the better bass helps you get better paying work, then it could be worth it..(if the new salary justifies the expense)
If it's a hobby that does not lose you money, it could be worth it, but I doubt it will make you more money than other options.. You'll likely need good day job to support this hobby.
If you're crunching the numbers, you also should consider the extra yearly costs of insuring these basses.


=====

Here's a topic to stir up some debate..

About the 'pedigree orchestral instruments' being a better investments... I am proposing that this is false..

- It's not the 19th C anymore... Throughout the 20thc 'orchestral' music has undergone a steady decline in social and cultural relevance. In the USA/Canada, most orchestras likely could not survive on ticket sales alone, without taxpayer subsidies or corporate sponsors. Cultures do this to 'buy prestige' for a city or a company... (N.America being at root a european colony culture.)
But since the 20thc saw North, Central and South America develop cultures and voices of their own, with new sounds and music, buyers in the 21th century will want to pay money to have those 'heritage instruments' of the 20thC. The desire for 19th music will decrease, and with it, the desire for instruments suited for 19th music will eventually decrease.

The exception market being Europe, as they'll want to preserve their own musical heritage.

But the new rich folk of the Asia regions, Africa, South America, North America, Caribbean, are going to care less and less about preserving the instruments of Europe's past. And they'll (we'll) care less and less about 'buying class' by imitating Europe's culture.

At first, it will be about 'buying class' by imitating the USA (ugghh), but eventually that will change too. Each region will preserve it's own.


--
So back to your post...
If the desire for 20thC instruments, that made their sound known will increase, I propose that a current 10k bass may be better tied into that innovative culture and sound than a current 40k bass. And so, the current 10k bass may be a better investment for the future...4 decades down the road.


Maybe...
It's something to stir up a conversation during vacation time... Not sure how true it really is..

there's also way more talented players looking for work in a shrinking industry though. by supply and demand laws, it seems that less orchestra jobs/more highly competitive players would actually drive the market up when it comes to basses in the 30,000+ range. you may be right though, it seems like there must be a ceiling that would eventually be reached.

[Paul Warburton]

The Japanese are some of the wisest and shrewdest investors on the planet.
They did and do invest their bucks in fine master string instruments including the double bass....I mean, big time.

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by Square Bear

there's also way more talented players looking for work in a shrinking industry though. by supply and demand laws, it seems that less orchestra jobs/more highly competitive players would actually drive the market up when it comes to basses in the 30,000+ range. you may be right though, it seems like there must be a ceiling that would eventually be reached.

Good thinking.

The way I interpret that supply and demand laws in the above scenario is that the salaries being offered to those musicians will go down. With the lower salaries as the payoff, the players will be less inclined to go into multi-year debt to buy the top priced instruments, and will only be able to afford the less expensive basses.

The money has to first flow into an orchestra's coffers, to pay those salaries...

Perhaps, after a while the only people left to buy the top dollar instruments will be wealthy business moguls, who'll then loan them out to musicians as they see fit. They'll want to attend all the fun musician parties, have prizes/scholarships named after them and get credit for having taste in fine antiques...(Like it is already with violins). If the moguls successfully do the 'pump and dump' thing with each other, the prices can go up even further...
Just like paintings I suppose...

[rusag2]

So, which of us is going to use this argument with our respective spouse: Honey, I KNOW that you said $9,000 MAX for a bass, but....here's the deal.....if we take our retirement money, and put 1/4 of it into the bass, not only will we be able to "hang on" to the $9,000, but the value will actually increase! It's a diversification strategy!!

[drurb]

Originally Posted by rusag2

So, which of us is going to use this argument with our respective spouse: Honey, I KNOW that you said $9,000 MAX for a bass, but....here's the deal.....if we take our retirement money, and put 1/4 of it into the bass, not only will we be able to "hang on" to the $9,000, but the value will actually increase! It's a diversification strategy!!

Not me!

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

The Japanese are some of the wisest and shrewdest investors on the planet.
They did and do invest their bucks in fine master string instruments including the double bass....I mean, big time.

Do they squirrel them away or make sure they are played? Back in the early '70s, my Italian bass teacher used to travel to Europe to pick out instruments for his students. I distinctly remember him lamenting to me that, rather suddenly, the market had dried up because investors were purchasing many of the finest instruments and enclosing them behind glass cabinets in their houses.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by drurb

Do they squirrel them away or make sure they are played? Back in the early '70s, my Italian bass teacher used to travel to Europe to pick out instruments for his students. I distinctly remember him lamenting to me that, rather suddenly, the market had dried up because investors were purchasing many of the finest instruments and enclosing them behind glass cabinets in their houses.

Yes, unfortunately, that's true, at least sometimes. IMO.
I posted once about the great bass luthier Paul Toenniges' shop in Studio City. I went there to hang with Red Mitchell once. There were many fine basses there. I went back a few years later....gone except one Jacquet. Foreign investor bought them all, in one fell swoop.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by D McCartney

Doesn't the term "investment" imply that at some point you are going to realize a return? If you have a really nice bass, are you really going to sell it?

+1.

[Marc Piane]

+2. Also keep in mind that it may take YEARS to sell.

[Gornick]

I personally find the idea of a bass or any musical instrument as an "investment" to be despicable. Go play the damn stock market or something and leave the wood for the musicians. It is difficult enough for some of us to get the dough together for a quality instrument without the money-obsessed driving up the prices just for the sake of their portfolio profile.