DB Sustain?

[Thunderwood]

Hey Guys,

I'm visiting from the EBG realm, as I have not picked up a DB sense my freshman year in High School.

I recently got in a debate with a fellow cellist, I was talking to one of my teachers (who has recently picked up bass) and I was describing how some people put a dampener under the strings of an EBG to replicate an upright bass' short sustain, fast decay tone. A guy who is supposedly an amazing Cellist barked at me commenting on how you can get good long sustain out of an upright bass (bow excluded)

Now my Upright days are pretty shady, but I don't exactly remember getting loads of sustain out of any upright I played (maybe I just wasn't good) But is this guy right? I will probably never see the guy ever again but I wouldn't mind knowing if he was right and I was wrong.

Thanks!

[alanbarnosky]

you can get sustain, but not like a bass guitar.

[MingusAmongUs]

Obviously it depends on a lot of factors (strings, fingerboard, etc), but I have played DBs with oodles of sustain, and pork chops with very little. And vice-versa of course.

Generally you get less sustain with a DB pizz, but your cellist friend was not far off.

[Paul Warburton]

If you want max sustain pizz you use Thomastik Orchestra or Starks

[TroyK]

Yep. If the bass that you played way back when had gut or stings designed for symphony section work or just had a really bad set up, it would have sounded thumpy pizz. Jazz strings and hands will get you some sustain.

Hey, do us a favor, next time you see your celloist friend ask him "Hey, is that a bass?"

Actually, if you could say that to him everytime, we'd all appreciate it.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by TroyK

Yep. If the bass that you played way back when had gut or stings designed for symphony section work or just had a really bad set up, it would have sounded thumpy pizz. Jazz strings and hands will get you some sustain.

Hey, do us a favor, next time you see your celloist friend ask him "Hey, is that a bass?"

Actually, if you could say that to him everytime, we'd all appreciate it.

[Silversorcerer]

Double basses can have incredible sustain. The thud tone is usually a muted gut string. In a lot of ways there are similarities in the sound to the sound of a fretless bass guitar, but with a much richer and deeper timbre. I've even heard some that had too much sustain. Get some CDs of Brian Bromberg, Paul Chambers, and Ron Carter. You will hear it.

What is it with these cello people (not the players, but the one's that don't know what a DB is)? I've got a 6 ft. 3 inch instrument with five strings that weighs 30+ pounds and if I had a nickel for every time in two years that some one asks if it is a cello, I could retire. I think they do it on purpose. I'm trying to think of an appropriate response. Not that I want to hijack the thread, but does anyone have a good answer to that?

Q: Is that a cello?
A: Is that an ___ on your shoulders?

Q: Is that a cello?
A: Yep, accidentally overfed the poor thing.

Q: Is that a cello?
A: No, but did you notice your fly is open? Ha, Ha, made you look!

Q: Is that a cello?
A: I don't know, what's a cello?

[Marcus Johnson]

Just different.... My old 80's vintage Steinberger sustains for months, but the harmonic content of the note is about 10% of the same note on my real bass. On the La Scala, the note may decay sooner (although not much, especially if I have Spiros on there) but in that time frame, a bunch of different subtle things happen that trigger all kinds of little pleasure bombs in my soul. What can I say; Dad loves his work.

Besides, if I really need sustain, there's always the bow.

[Sam Sherry]

'Cello? Around here we refer to that as an "almost-bass."

In any event, when I think if bass guitars I think of Fenders. They have dead notes on middle-C and low-Ab. Those notes die instantly. (Middle-C for goodness sake!)

Play on . . .

[christ andronis]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

......a bunch of different subtle things happen that trigger all kinds of little pleasure bombs in my soul. What can I say; Dad loves his work.

couldn't have said it better myself...

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

What is it with these cello people (not the players, but the one's that don't know what a DB is)? I've got a 6 ft. 3 inch instrument with five strings that weighs 30+ pounds and if I had a nickel for every time in two years that some one asks if it is a cello, I could retire.

Yep-- just last Sunday, playing jazz with my group-- laid the bass down to pull out the endpin for the next set-- guy in the audience says, "Is that a cello?" I just stared at him for a few seconds and said, "No, it's a bass." Alternative replies went through my head. So this means that there are actually people who figure that a jazz horn section, jazz guitar, and drummer would be accompanied by a cello. Amazing.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by drurb

Yep-- just last Sunday, playing jazz with my group-- laid the bass down to pull out the endpin for the next set-- guy in the audience says, "Is that a cello?" I just stared at him for a few seconds and said, "No, it's a bass." Alternative replies went through my head. So this means that there are actually people who figure that a jazz horn section, jazz guitar, and drummer would be accompanied by a cello. Amazing.

I swear I get that every damn week.

I need a witty retort. Everything I come up with has far to much vitriol for before the first set.

[anon_6j591b0]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

If you want max sustain pizz you use Thomastik Orchestra or Starks

And an amplifier.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by jeffbonny

And an amplifier.

Well, sure. Without an amp, just about any DB will sustain longer than a similarly unamped BG. With starks aboard, fuggeddaboudit.

[anon_6j591b0]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Well, sure. Without an amp, just about any DB will sustain longer than a similarly unamped BG. With starks aboard, fuggeddaboudit.

I stated what's obvious to you and me but maybe not to the OP to try to put to rest the impression non-DB playing EBG players might have about the foam muting thing giving you an "upright" sound. The reality is that most of us do play amplified most often and anyone using fat Spiros through an amp probably has near infinite sustain.

[Peck_Time]

Yeah, every time someone on the slab side asks "How do I sound like an upright bass?", I feel like posting a rant about the differences in double bass sound.

I mean, there's Jimmy Blanton, La Faro, Mingus, Ray Brown... jeepers there's a huge spectrum of individual tones just in gut tones!

[skidude]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

I swear I get that every damn week.

I need a witty retort. Everything I come up with has far to much vitriol for before the first set.

Have a t-shirt printed with the image of a DB and player along with the words, "only and idiot would mistake a double bass for a cello."

When the offender speaks, turn slowly, reveal the shirt, and with a big cheesy grin, say no. Then casually turn away from the offender.

I needed one last night.

[bassist1962]

Originally Posted by Peck_Time

Yeah, every time someone on the slab side asks "How do I sound like an upright bass?", I feel like posting a rant about the differences in double bass sound.

I mean, there's Jimmy Blanton, La Faro, Mingus, Ray Brown... jeepers there's a huge spectrum of individual tones just in gut tones!

Joe Zalwunal (sp) was fooled by Jaco's sound at first. He thought Jaco was playing an upright, and asked if he would mind playing bass guitar. This was in 1976. I started playing in 1978, and my dad used to tell me how I would never get the BG to sound like a DB. Says something to me about sound perception, but I'm not sure what.

[anon_6j591b0]

Originally Posted by Peck_Time

Yeah, every time someone on the slab side asks "How do I sound like an upright bass?", I feel like posting a rant about the differences in double bass sound.

I mean, there's Jimmy Blanton, La Faro, Mingus, Ray Brown... jeepers there's a huge spectrum of individual tones just in gut tones!

I've gone off about this over on the slab side before. My feelings are that you can't make a slab sound like a DB but you can cop the physical articulation a DB player has to use to get a sound outta the big bass. This and a set of broken in flatwound strings and you might not make anyone think it's a DB but you can get close enough that a majority won't notice it's not.

As far as the Jaco audition thing goes I think at that time A) there weren't that many fretless bass guitarists (although Weather Report had had one already) and B) the state of upright amplification at that time could make a DB sound very electric. That and Jaco's articulation had the same force typical of a lot of DB players.

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by bassist1962

Joe Zalwunal (sp) was fooled by Jaco's sound at first. He thought Jaco was playing an upright, and asked if he would mind playing bass guitar. This was in 1976. I started playing in 1978, and my dad used to tell me how I would never get the BG to sound like a DB. Says something to me about sound perception, but I'm not sure what.

It's the fretless thing happening for sure coupled with the piezo amplification of double basses the led to Zawinul's mistake. With the right strings (or maybe the wrong ones?) and piezo style pickup, one can make a DB sound very much like a fretless EBG. However going the other way is a bit different. A properly mic'd DB is quite distinctive.