Did you play upright string (orchestral) and then learn bass guitar?

[armybass]

Nope I was Bass Ackwards. Played EB for 10 years then started URB in college/orchestra ect. I would give anything, well almost anything to have another 10 years of URB experience today.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by toman

Neither, sorry. I don't think it's particularly relevant, unless taken to an extreme. If I had a cookie for every classical player or teacher who has critisized this technique, I would be a fat, fat man. IMO, it's perfeclty legitimate, and even logical. You have five fingers, why not use them? But I don't think this is the place to rehash this old debate.

Well, I was just curious. If you can actually get three half-steps (1-2, 2-3, 3-4) on the lower end of the FB and be in tune, more power to you. I just never met anyone who could. I sure can't and I have large hands.

[jsbach1982]

Originally Posted by NCbassgirl

Did you play upright string (orchestral) and then learn bass guitar?

If so, I would appreciate any information and advice you have to share - what did you learn during the process?

I played DB in grade school for 7 years, went to TMEA All-State a couple times, played in the Houston Youth Orchestra and a local volunteer group, etc. I remember trying to play a friend's electric sometime during high school and just found the thing completely unplayable.

I finally got an electric bass my senior year of high school. It took me about a year to get comfortable on it, then it became my primary instrument when I got to college and didn't have a DB anymore.

In my mind, they're really two seperate instruments. The right-hand technique is completely different. Your left hand has to adapt to the different neck angle, different 'feel' of the neck (electric bass necks still feel way too thin to me), moving roughly left-to-right instead of up and down, notes closer together, frets if you have them, etc. etc.

One thing I haven't heard mentioned yet, is that on electric bass you will be COMPLETELY LOST ABOVE THE OCTAVE (12th fret). No thumb position for you!

Until very recently, I used the same fingering on both instruments: 1-2-4 below the octave, 1-2-3 above. I guess I always felt that, since so much is different, it's nice to have SOMETHING stay the same on both instruments!

I still can't play a fretless BG. Not in tune, anyway. The string length and overall feel are so different that none of my DB training seems to carry over. In your situation, I don't think a fretless would be any easier or harder to learn than a fretted, but a fretted I think would be more useful (especially since you play DB as well).

A word of caution about acoustic-electric bass guitars: they're not loud enough acoustically to be used without an amp, unless you're just jamming by yourself in your bedroom.

In closing, I think your best bet would be to approach it more like you were learning trumpet or piano or whatever. Don't expect too much to stay the same, and certainly don't expect your playing to be anywhere close to where it's at on DB, at least for the first few years. Good luck and let us know how it goes!



-Jono

[kaybass1952]

I find the 124 (left hand) can work nicely on BG especially in the lower positions when covering root fifth octave (right hand)over 3 strings ala Jamerson approach.Carol Kaye is a proponent of this approach claiming the 3rd finger lacks tendon strength of the other fingers. I mix it up with 1234 for scales and lines.Whatever is practical and feels solid for the a given part is what I go for(kinda by instinct at this point) .I'm newer to DB (5 years) and like 124 ala Simandl. Again it feels right (for me).

[jtlownds]

[quote=jsbarber]Does the audience think you're flipping them off? [I think you mean 1,2 4 fingering - sorry, bad joke...]

Nope, I really meant 1, 3, 4. The so called Italian fingering. I never thought that I might be offending my audience with the extended 2nd finger -- I'll have to pay closer attention at my next gig

[jfv]

In some ways going fretted would be good because it will
offer a challenge you dont get with upright, handling
unwanted string noise from the frets, and just general
string muting technique. Its there with fretless but not
as much. Its a must for guitarists bass or not

Have fun,

[lfh]

Originally Posted by NCbassgirl

Did you play upright string (orchestral) and then learn bass guitar?

Yep, I started with cello at 8 or 9, picked up the DB at 14, played them both for some years until I discovered the BG, soon after which I dropped the cello - and a couple of years later I dropped the DB, too. After a decade and a half on BG exclusivel, I'm back to playing both DB and BG (and I love to play the "Real Bass" again!).

Originally Posted by NCbassgirl

If so, I would appreciate any information and advice you have to share - what did you learn during the process?

I recall that after having played only classical music, it was a shock to have to sight-read James Jamerson-style basslines on the BG! The BG certainly introduced me to another level of rythmic complexity.

I also learned that there is no such thing as an "easy instrument": If basic technique can be mastered quicker on one instrument than on another, the demands in terms of speed /articulation / range of playing styles / whatever will simply be higher. E.g. on BG people might expect you to slap, tap, or fly through the head of 'Donna Lee' at 240 BPM...

On the practical side, I got to love the 1234-fingering many have mentioned already, I learned to play across the strings as also mentioned before in this thread, and I cleaned up my right hand technique (into strict alternating between 1 and 2), too. All of those lessons are useful on the DB.

Originally Posted by NCbassgirl

For instance, did you find that fretless or fretted worked best? For someone who plans to continue with both instruments, what should I consider?

Personally I never cared for the fretless BG - I wanted to slap like Stanley Clarke! My advice would be (if you're serious about it) - let the BG be a BG: Get a fretted one, preferably a 5- or even 6-string, use 1234-fingering exclusively and alternating RH fingering with a light touch (let the amp do the job). It's really a different beast, but I'm sure that you'll find that your DB playing will benefit in many aspects from the work put into the BG.

Good luck (and do get a teacher, if only for a couple of lessons)!

[Mike Goodbar]

I played double bass for about a year and a half before I started playing electric (again, because of high school jazz ensemble). I went out and bought a Fender Jazz bass, because I figured that's what you needed to play Jazz.

I just transferred my Simandl fingering to the fretboard (I love that word). I even played through the Simandl book with it to get my chops in shape. I took the EBt o my bass lesson, and the only thing my teacher advised was to keep a proper left-hand position, similar to what I use for upright. It still bugs me a little when I see someone using the "death grip," left-hand method.

For about the first 10 years I played electric, I dug in really hard; almost as hard as I do when I play upright. Broke a lot of strings and suffered a minor hand injury. Now I've learned to lay back a little when playing it.

I now also sometimes use 1-2-4, sometimes 1-3-4, sometimes 1-2-3-4 That's why I'm really reluctant to take electric bass students; most of the time I'm not really sure what the hell I'm doing on it.

[jsbarber]

I've never heard of the 1,3,4 Italian fingering. Pardon my ignorance. Intuitively it doesn't seem like it would be a comfortable system, but I guess you can adapt to pretty much anything. Afterall the DB isn't exactly the most comfortable instrument to begin with. What do you perceive to be the advantages of this fingering approach?

Thanks,

Jim

Originally Posted by jtlownds

Nope, I really meant 1, 3, 4. The so called Italian fingering. I never thought that I might be offending my audience with the extended 2nd finger -- I'll have to pay closer attention at my next gig

[reedo35]

Originally Posted by jsbarber

What do you perceive to be the advantages of this fingering approach?

Jim

Uh oh! I smell a derailment approaching!

[toman]

Originally Posted by jsbarber

I've never heard of the 1,3,4 Italian fingering. Pardon my ignorance. Intuitively it doesn't seem like it would be a comfortable system, but I guess you can adapt to pretty much anything. Afterall the DB isn't exactly the most comfortable instrument to begin with. What do you perceive to be the advantages of this fingering approach?

Thanks,

Jim

Check out the Bille books.

[robobass]

I played fretless BG and guitar before learning upright. With upright I learned Simandl and stick to it except for a lot more thumb and an occasional 3rd finger when playing Mozart or Mendelssohn. I never tried to play BG with Simandl fingerings, but I think it would be good for people without big strong hands. Adapting guitar fingerings to even standard Fender stringlengths is often unsuccessful imo, and does sometimes result in injury.
Robobass

[drewbass2ooo]

when i started playing EB i already had probably 5-6 years of UB under my belt. i noticed at first i was using the 1-2-4 fingerings on the electric (i was also tiny when i started.) but as my hands grew and my knowledge grew it was just natural to switch to a 1-2-3-4 pattern on electric. and eventually i took the patterns from electric to upright. i now use 1.2.3.4 anywhere beyond 2nd position (rabbath style) and 1.2.3 or 1.2.4 for first and second position on the upright. but constantly im developing thumb techniqes for the lower octaves on my UB. my advice is to not restrict yourself to a finger type. i feel like i wasted a lot of effort on patterns i dont really use anymore. explore your bass, both of them, and find whats best for you. are you a fast player? slow player? how high are your strings? are you looking for strong tonal centers (fundementally) or are you looking for more articulate / less resonant sounds. these are all the questions for the finger positions we come up with, right? theres tons more but do whats best for the sound you want. dont rely on the equipment to produce it.

[tkozal]

Originally Posted by spdrswb

I started with BG.

Fretted or fretless: you have the pleasure and excitement to choose. Whatever you buy, buy also a cheapo from the other kind. It can happen that you consider switching later.

Fingering: BG is a guitar for me. I tend to think it was invented for people wanting subcontra, but coming from the guitar world. I would try to use 1234 whereever I can. If you keep using 124, please try longer mensures than 34 inches. 36 is OK, you'll enjoy it.

Freedom!

+1
That's the issue, I started on BG, with a guitar player who forced me to go 1234, one finger per fret. I had to learn parts of Simandl to deal with DB (down low only). Fretted would let you know you are playing a different instrument. A fretless would allow you to use more of your DB technique, if you don't want to go 1234, which really adds to BG speed (thats my opinion, you that disagree, feel free to flame - woosies )

[ryco]

I started on upright in 4th grade orchestra. I learned the standard 1-2-4 fingering through Belwin and beginner books, though I wasn't into practicing much. I played through 8th grade when I was invited to leave orchestra. I had bought a cheap used fretted bass guitar the summer before so I started teaching myself by listening to records and playing with friends. I switched to finger per fret because it was easy and made sense to me.

In high school I had the opportunity to join stage band and jazz choir because the teacher was looking for an electric bass player, preferably someone who could read. I started taking lessons with a jazz guitarist so I could learn how to read chord symbols when the charts didn't have written lines. Took with him for a couple of years until he said he had no more to teach me. Highly encouraged me to learn guitar, but I wasn't interested at the time. Now I wish I would've taken him up on his offer. When my parents saw I was actually applying myself they bought me a used Gibson EB3 with the frets ripped out of it which I used for years until it was swiped. In sophomore year I started playing professionally in a band for school dances on weekends.

After I got out of public school ('74) I did menial jobs and didn't play much. After a couple of years of that went to trade school and got a good paying job. Bought a new fretless Ripper and started taking lessons again. Again took from another jazz guitarist. After a couple of more years went back to college to play electric in jazz band and choir with a great teacher. To major in music I had to take upright - electrics not allowed. So after a 10 year hiatus I started again. Not easy. Wish I would've never quit. I stayed in college long enough to take the required two years of theory. Didn't want to take two years of music history so I dropped out. When I quit college I again stopped playing upright.

Fret hand: When I went back to playing upright again I went back to 1-2-4 fingering. Now use both when playing electric - 1-2-4 in the lower positions and switching to finger per fret above the fifth fret just because it feels comfortable and natural.
Plucking hand: I played upright pizzicato with the index and middle. When I switched to guitar I started playing index and ring for no particular reason. When I returned to upright I went back to index and middle. Now I use all three: index, middle and ring. And thumb - might as well learn to slap 'cause it's a gas!

Played professionally in Top 40 bands for a few years and then went into the original scene for a bunch of years. Now semi-retired.

*I wish I would have never stopped playing dbl bass because it is such a beautiful instrument. If your muscles are used to the technique don't lose it, it's a real effort getting it back.
*Also if you are offered the chance to learn a chord instrument like guitar or piano - jump on it. It is so valuable to be able to hear chords and chord progressions.
*Consider taking lessons from a guitar or piano teacher. Doesn't necessarily have to be your main teacher but it so nice to have someone play chords so one can hear how notes fit within chords and to hear lines in progressions.
* Try both fretted and fretless bass guitars and see what you like best. Or better yet get one of each. Can't have too many y'know

Sorry for the long boring history - hope you find some helpful info. Don't choose one over the other, choose both because they are both fantastic instruments! Of course this comes from a total bass addict! peace

[Jake]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Great questions you have. Just like a flash back. I don't know your age or what you mean by experienced but I am curious to know.

I was in 9th grade in HS and in my 3rd year of DB. I played only in the Orchestra from the beginning but starting in the mid 60s, I knew 'Louie Louie'! So I guess that was the ice breaker. The funny thing is that when my younger son walked up to me with sad eyes holding his BG at about 8 yrs old feeling bad because his brother was real good I took his Bass and taught him 'Louie Louie'? One day walking thru the hallways of 'HS or Music and Art' a trumpet player I had just started jamming with yells out "get that kid a Bass Guitar"! It was with him I played my first gig on DB at his fathers cocktail party and was him that brought in a Hagstrom BG for sale used from a friend of his for $80. I bought it and played it for several years. After I had my first Fender Precision I sold it for $75 to a Latin Bass pro.

I remember being on the road for a few days with the 'Larry Elgart Band' (one of the Dorsey books) and rooming with a couple of guys (3-4 per room for economics) and the trombone player says "did you ever try using guitar technique playing across the strings?" He picked up my Bass and showed me (I was maybe 18 at the time) and that was my second time seeing that. His name was Tom Malone aka 'Bones' Malone from the 'Blues Brothers' movie. Yes, that same guy. He also played Bass. The first time I saw it played like that was on my first steady gig with Mauricio Smith in 1969 (he played Tenor Sax, Flute and Vibes on the Gig but could also play Bass and Guitar). I was 17 then and got a 9-week gig for the summer at the Ali Baba club on 59th and 1st in NYC. It was from 10pm to 4am, 6 nights a week. The pay then was $120/week. I called the union and asked the scale only to find out it was even less, $87.50/week. I was actually subbing for John Williams who was on the road with Hugh Masekela. That's the same J.B williams that was on the Arsenio Hall show band and before on the Tonight Show band with Doc Severinsen. So, this was my start with the BG that we called the Fender Bass (do you play Fender as well?, they would ask when you brought the upright). I preferd calling it an Electric Bass from som non-commercial reason.

Frets? Yes, they got in my was so much that I filed them off down to the tang and left it fretless that way. Earlier in 1969 I auditioned for Horace Silver and won the gig. My replacement when I moved to another gig was a guy who also played upright but for Horace used some short scale fretted Bass. His name was Stan, Stanley Clarke!

Soon after, I ordered another neck and put a fretted Jazz Bass neck on my Precision body. I never again played a gig on a fretless. Intonation was the Law!

When I first studied with Lew Norton (just retired from the NY Philarmonic) he had asked me to teach him Jazz in exchange instead of paying for the lessons. It (jazz) was such a slow learning process for me I sort of declined not knowing how to teach 'Jazz' as it was a feel thing in my mind. This subject came up on occassion over the few years I studied with him.

So, you wanna play the 'Pork Chop' huh? Many ways to do it BUT the 450 or so students I had ALL went thru the Simandl until they either very good OR just quit because I wasn't being any fun!

Learn both Bass and Guitar technique but be careful with your Tendons. Try 1-2-4 fingerings until further up the neck. My son uses both 1-2-4, 1-2-3 and 1-2-3-4 and can even use his thumb having learned the opening of the Dragonetti with the same fingering that I use on the DB.

In actuality, the BG is a different instrument bridging the DB and the Guitar. The DB bridges the Bass and Violin Cello with some exceptions where the player is so darn good he just plays Violin concertos to make the rest of us look bad.

So, between the Violin and the Guitar, we are the 'Slowskies"!

BTW, this was me at 19;

The funny thing is that I never played with a hand position like the one I posed with. I just thought it would look cool..lol

This though was the real me back then as the BG was just a necessary working tool for me;

Oh, and they all called me Kenny back then and not Ken. Just ask Stanley. He still calls me Kenny along with everyone else that knew me from back then.

Thanks for that, Ken. I guess you are one of the select few musicians (or people in general???) that survived the 60's and 70's with out looking like someone from a bad Saturday Night Live skit.

With Much Respect, BTW
Jake

[Jake]

I have a question. Does Franco Pettracci, the great Italian bass soloist use the 134 method?
He's got a good book that my teacher had me buy called Simplified Higher Technique. It does not deal with lower positions though.

[fish slapper]

I started in BG in the late 70s. In those days of Jaco and Stanley, when I discovered Jazz, there wasn't any thought of going DB. So I've only recently finally taken the plunge when I wanted to get back into Jazz playing from a long detour into classical guitar and playing acoustic guitar in liturgical situations.

One of the most challenging things for me was learning 124 fingering. My teacher solved this by having me wrap a pony tail band around my middle two fingers for a couple months. It worked so well, now when I pick up a BG I have to think to get the 3rd finger to go down.