Discussion/argument thread about String Emporium

[HughFosterWood]

I'm gonna go back to my usual lurking soon. Got sucked in on the smokey stuff and gotta comment here too. Anybody else noticed something funny about all these string emporium reviews? Guys buy a bass, sign up here, say nearly the same thing then ya don't hear from em again-- don't question they're real customers just feel like I'm bein' pitched.

EDIT: Since this thread got kind of acrimonious before it mellowed out, I thought I'd paste in the response from the horse's mouth so that everyone can be informed about what they read afterward... kind of like a plot spoiler, but in fairness, this belongs up front along with the discussion of the issues at hand IMO. The quote below is from the end of the thread.

CF

Originally Posted by Stephen Koscica

Hello everyone!

I recently got an email from one of our customers that told me that there was some kind of question regarding how our present and past customers have posted on Talkbass and that maybe I should respond.

I thought that it would be best to hear it directly from the 'horse's mouth' here:

I own and operate the String Emporium. We specialize in the upright, double bass and I strive to offer the best quality and service. I am not here to plug myself, but at the same time, I need to set the record straight before things really get (falsely) out of hand with any kinds of rumors, purposely false statements or whatever. I don't post here (at least not very often). While I would love to be more active, I just don't have the time and also, I think (to me) it's a conflict of interest when people involved directly in the business, leave posts. I enjoy Talkbass though and I know that if more politicians were bass players, we'd have world peace in no time!

I think all or most of the posts left on Talkbass about String Emporium (most gratefully) are positive posts from our customers. For one, I have always encouraged people that get a bass from us to tell their friends, and fellow bass players about us, our quality and our service. Many customers hear or read about us on Talkbass so I always appreciate that when they do go back and tell everyone: "hey, everything worked out and I am happy". As any dealer will tell you, happy customers are the best kinds of advertising. If there should ever be a time where the owner (Paul Determan of Talkbass) wants to see the original invoices of these people, I would be more than happy to show that and verify. Some never heard about Talkbass until I told them about it, so that would explain why someone my join here, then post. I have noticed that people tend to say the same kind of thing: That they're happy, they got a nice bass and that I was ok. (So I did my job!) I have never told anyone what to write or written one myself.

Unfortunately, many of you still don't know much about us, or know what we're about.

I am (still) a professional bass player. I am lucky in that I get to play in the Phoenix Symphony. (Even with a Jazz background and training!) I am very fortunate and graced to be able to keep playing. I truly love it ! This week we're doing all Beethoven and even with all the work load that I have to deal with here, I couldn't give that up for the world! As a classical bass player, we need to be able play in an orchestra. That's our "band". It's what I dreamed of doing and what I love. May sound silly, but I love the BASS!

I want to say that each and every posting that I can see was indeed a customer of ours. Hopefully, they should ALL be positive. My feeling is that if I have an unhappy customer, then somewhere I screwed up. While I am 50 years old now, my dearest teacher and mentor, is Murray Grodner. I studied with him at Indiana University back in the early 80's. (that's 1980's !) Many of you might not know too much about him, but besides being one of the most influential and most successful bass teachers, he founded, owned and operated Lemur Music. Now the company is owned by Jerry Buffa (whom I have had the pleasure of meeting on several occasions). The one (most important) thing that I learned from Murray from years of watching him operate was this:

"Treat customers the best! Always, make sure you take care of them."

So many people need help, whether it's with what kind of bass they need, or what kinds of strings or whatever. I have the experience both as a player AND as a dealer to help.

My parents (my mother in particular who was a real estate broker) taught me the hard work ethic, to be 'myself' and treat people like I would want to be treated. To also "keep my nose clean"! (My mom's words there!!)

Ok, enough of that. So again, all of the posts here are our customers. Thanks for your business and your positive feedback. I think this forum Talkbass is incredible. For my generation, we never had this sort of reference and source available. Back in the old days, it could take many years just to find out about a 'new' string. These days, you get the company presentation, the lowest price and the customer reviews within a few hours!! At the same time, rumors (even if it gossipy) can mis-direct or mis-inform just as quickly. Some of the posts left here were purposely misleading and obviously left to do damage.

So, I apologize for the long post here, but I thought it would be a good idea just clear the air. I've worked hard for the praise here. It is real!

Yours truly,
Steve Koscica

[crowsmengegus]

Originally Posted by HughFosterWood

I'm gonna go back to my usual lurking soon. Got sucked in on the smokey stuff and gotta comment here too. Anybody else noticed something funny about all these string emporium reviews? Guys buy a bass, sign up here, say nearly the same thing then ya don't hear from em again-- don't question they're real customers just feel like I'm bein' pitched.

I don't think anything sinister is going on. As you can see, I didn't just sign up, and I think string emporium is great. I bought a finale bow from them about 1.5 years ago and Steve was helpful, informative and a very nice guy.

How about this: somebody lurks on this site, learns about the Rogeri, buys one and loves it. So they sign up to gush about it. I think its a reasonable scenario.

[HughFosterWood]

Nah-- not sinister-- just think the reviews are being encouraged a bit too much 'specially cause they all sound so close.

[uprightbass.com]

Originally Posted by HughFosterWood

Nah-- not sinister-- just think the reviews are being encouraged a bit too much 'specially cause they all sound so close.

String Emporium sells good basses and the prices are very reasonable so they are on my personal credible shop list, but it does seem a bit coincidental that the buyers sign up here right after they buy products. Other than String Emporium and Gollihur, I haven't seen it happen anywhere near as often from people who purchased from Upton, Gage, KC Strings, etc. Perhaps it's just that people who found them spend more time on the Internet and that's how they found them in the first place. Certain companies are more prominent on the Internet compared to brick and mortar shops.

I hope there isn't something more sinister going on.

[HughFosterWood]

Originally Posted by uprightbass.com

String Emporium sells good basses and the prices are very reasonable so they are on my personal credible shop list, but it does seem a bit coincidental that the buyers sign up here right after they buy products. Other than String Emporium and Gollihur, I haven't seen it happen anywhere near as often from people who purchased from Upton, Gage, KC Strings, etc. Perhaps it's just that people who found them spend more time on the Internet and that's how they found them in the first place. Certain companies are more prominent on the Internet compared to brick and mortar shops.

I hope there isn't something more sinister going on.

Yeah, string emporium does seem to be a good place with good basses. Guessing-- I'd say that Steve might be pushing guys to post thinking it'll be good for him. Can't blame the guy but if he is doin' it it's a bit too much I'd say.

[ekspain]

Why do people buy from dealers??? Isn't it better to buy from the players themselves...dealers take huge commissions on basses. If a bass seller wants 79,000 and leaves it on consignment at any "reputed" dealer...the dealer is likely to take 10-15,000 more! This is a ridiculous scenario. The best thing to do is find players selling basses via musicalchairs or ISB classifieds or where ever, and buy a bass from them.
OR if you buy a bass from a living maker- go directly to the maker....not trying to put anyone out of buisnes, but frankly I'm sick of being stiffed by dealers, who try and screw me over all the time. Just my 2 cents...

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by ekspain

but frankly I'm sick of being stiffed by dealers, who try and screw me over all the time. Just my 2 cents...

No one likes shady business people, but I don't get the impression too many are doing that, at least around the talkbass crowd. As a buyer, it's a lot more convenient to go to a shop and try out a number of instruments than hitting multiple private sellers, who also may be reluctant to let you take a bass out on trial if you are interested. I think dealers perform a service in this regard, and of course they have to be compensated. As a seller, I am reluctant to pay 15-20% commission, but I think the basses that are selling are getting the exposure a good dealer provides.

[uprightbass.com]

Originally Posted by ekspain

Why do people buy from dealers??? Isn't it better to buy from the players themselves...dealers take huge commissions on basses. If a bass seller wants 79,000 and leaves it on consignment at any "reputed" dealer...the dealer is likely to take 10-15,000 more! This is a ridiculous scenario. The best thing to do is find players selling basses via musicalchairs or ISB classifieds or where ever, and buy a bass from them.
OR if you buy a bass from a living maker- go directly to the maker....not trying to put anyone out of buisnes, but frankly I'm sick of being stiffed by dealers, who try and screw me over all the time. Just my 2 cents...

There are some dealers that are shady for sure, but in business of any kind a 20% Gross Profit is considered minimum and covers operating expenses, interest, insurance, advertising and bills. Most decent places that I've dealt with put between 10 to 20% markup on basses consignment, new or used. This is on par with any product. I personally don't think that a markup is being screwed since I pay a markup for every product in every day life from groceries to gasoline to furniture.

I've been on both on the buyer or private party seller side. As a buyer, you are getting the benefit of being able to try at least 20 basses in one place. You get to compare them side by side. Whether that benefit is of value to you is an individual call. If you don't mind traveling to 20 different places to try basses, then you're saving yourself a good chunk of money. Also, most store provide the added value of letting you take a bass on trial so you can try it out before committing to buy. You also have recourse if the bass is later is discovered to be hot. As a seller, if you want the best odds of selling a bass, then you want as many potential buyers trying your bass as possible. You don't have to deal with answering calls and making arrangements for stranger to come to you home to try the bass, or making arrangements and not showing up.

Good advice on buying new from makers. There is definitely no reason to buy new from a shop instead of a maker, when possible.

[drurb]

Dealers will also usually provide some sort of assurance or warranty.

[wdnewman]

Also dealers, if they are real bass shops, provide a setup. A top notch
setup makes the bass worth every penny of profit they make on it.
I bought my first bass from an individual who didn't know squat and I had to rework the whole thing to make it playable. I'm not going to do that again.
I have dealt with Steve at String Emporium and recommend him heartily, but I have never bought anything from him.

[drurb]

I think the typical policies for markup, commission, and warranty differ for basses a dealer represents and sells and basses taken on consignment. The following represents what I understand to be true from my experience.

For basses on consignment, the dealer usually takes a percentage on the sale, the seller having a fair amount of control over the asking price. There is typically little or no warranty offered as the dealer is acting as a broker.

For used basses that the dealer sells, there is, of course, a markup between what was paid and the asking price. Typically, the dealer will have gone through the instrument and corrected any problems (unless otherwise stated), examined and/or tweaked the setup, will provide some sort of warranty, and will often offer a trial period. Sure, the asking price from a dealer on such a bass will be higher than if purchased from a private party. The higher price does, however, reflect value added. It's like buying a car from a private party vs. a dealer.

New basses offered by a dealer, of course, include a markup. If the bass is a common "brand" (e.g., Shen, Christopher, Strunal, any of several imports), then the difference between the offerings across shops often reflect different setups, warranties, etc. For these basses, one can't easily "buy from the maker" who usually doesn't even provide a setup.

Finally, there are new basses that are offered by individual makers. One may very well pay the same price for a bass offered directly from the maker as the price offered via one of the maker's representative dealers. This occurs so as not to undercut those dealers.

So, in answer to ekspain, IMO:

No, it is not necessarily better to buy from players themselves.
No, a 10-20% commission for consignment is not a "ridiculous scenario" given that a bass on consignment takes up floor-space in a shop and will usually be exposed to many more buyers than it would be if sold privately.
No, you can't always go directly to the maker.
IME, dealers who would or have stiffed you and who "screw [you] over all the time" are the exception, not the rule.

[CellarDweller]

Most of the dealers I have known were players first, and most continue to play after they open shops. The ones that stay in business (especially in the era of instant reviews on the internet) give good advice and good service. They take the risk of instruments getting injured in shipping, make good on warranty claims, and use their experience and connections to find good stuff to sell. They work hard, and usually long hours, spend a lot of time and money on tax accounting, and, in my experience, make some money but never get rich. A lot of them are very attuned to helping entry level players get decent set ups. And, a lot of that gets done much better by smaller stores (like the one the OP wrote about about) than by big national stores with multiple large retail stores that make most of their margins on drums and guitars and sound systems. I think these guys are helping the overall quality of instrument go up while the price stays down, and I think that is good for all of us. By the way, there is some nice playing on that web site--kind of a unique angle, I'd say.

[Jason Sypher]

What website?

[MingusAmongUs]

Originally Posted by HughFosterWood

I'm gonna go back to my usual lurking soon. Got sucked in on the smokey stuff and gotta comment here too. Anybody else noticed something funny about all these string emporium reviews? Guys buy a bass, sign up here, say nearly the same thing then ya don't hear from em again-- don't question they're real customers just feel like I'm bein' pitched.

I've noticed this too, but with another vendor...

[uprightbass.com]

I have no issues with bass retailers such as String Emporium that provide a service for their markup. Bass retailers that drop ship basses or don't at least set them up before shipping, that just seems so wrong. For a shop to say "When your bass arrives, you should go and take it to someone to have it worked on." Something's wrong with that statement. Sure it's best to take a bass to get some minor adjustments when it goes to a new climate, but it should be setup before it's shipped which is crucial part of evaluating it. I consider this a serious issue for low end basses where the quality issues are more frequent and it's probably a beginner's who's going to buy it. It's a disservice to bassists because they can't evaluate it on their own and often pinch pennies so it takes a whole lot of arm twisting to convince them to bring it to a luthier.

[Eric Swanson]

Originally Posted by ekspain

Why do people buy from dealers??? Isn't it better to buy from the players themselves...dealers take huge commissions on basses. If a bass seller wants 79,000 and leaves it on consignment at any "reputed" dealer...the dealer is likely to take 10-15,000 more! This is a ridiculous scenario. The best thing to do is find players selling basses via musicalchairs or ISB classifieds or where ever, and buy a bass from them.
OR if you buy a bass from a living maker- go directly to the maker....not trying to put anyone out of buisnes, but frankly I'm sick of being stiffed by dealers, who try and screw me over all the time. Just my 2 cents...

IMHO, dealers provide a great service; they seek out, try, research, collect, and maintain inventories of bizarre stuff, like bass hardware, bow quivers, rosin, instruments, etc.

Everybody needs to make a living. Markups are how dealers make theirs. They add value with their expertise.

They also take substantial risk. They also "sit" on things for months or years, just so it will be available if somebody wants it. Maintaining inventory costs money and time.

Saying that dealers are ripping off their customers is like saying that musicians are ripping people off by charging to play. After all, why not just play the 12 tones yourself? The notes are free. One can find them cheaper elsewhere...

Finally, the better dealers stand behind their sales and have clout with distributors, should something go awry. Dealers buy sufficient quantities of product for manufacturers and distributors to take their concerns pretty seriously.

I say, bless the dealers. Its just a matter of picking folks with whom you enjoy doing business...

[HughFosterWood]

Originally Posted by MingusAmongUs

I've noticed this too, but with another vendor...

Really? Never seen it with another vendor that guys buy a bass and sign up here posting nearly the same thing then disappear. I been watchin' too. Seen NS, Upton, Shen love-fests but all different basses... different posts... non-newbie players... newbie players. This is way different. And I can't remember the last time I saw post after post following closely with any other vendor... wouldn't mind it either if they all didn't sound the same and give hardly any different info... Funny you say you've noticed it with another vendor but not string emporium... maybe you're not lookin'

[drurb]

Well said, Eric, well said.

[MIKMAN]

+1!!!

[kreider204]

Originally Posted by uprightbass.com

String Emporium sells good basses and the prices are very reasonable so they are on my personal credible shop list, but it does seem a bit coincidental that the buyers sign up here right after they buy products. Other than String Emporium and Gollihur, I haven't seen it happen anywhere near as often from people who purchased from Upton, Gage, KC Strings, etc. Perhaps it's just that people who found them spend more time on the Internet and that's how they found them in the first place. Certain companies are more prominent on the Internet compared to brick and mortar shops.

I hope there isn't something more sinister going on.

Sorry in advance if I'm misunderstanding, but is the question about whether or not Steve at String Emporium is asking people to come here and post positive reviews? If so, I can only speak for myself, but Steve didn't ask any such thing of me, or even remotely suggest it. I signed up here about a year and a half ago, have posted about 120 times, and when I posted my own thread about buying a Thompson from Steve, it was simply to share a picture of my new toy.