Do ply's open up with age?

[Libersolis]

I know that carved basses generally are supposed to open up and sound better with age, but what about good ply's? For instance will the Cleveland's sound even better in 50 years? Also one thing I dislike about laminates is the sticky feeling on the back of the neck as opposed to the smooth feel of the carved I own. Is this just a characteristic of ply's or are there plywoods with the smooth feel?

[Silversorcerer]

I've heard of plywood de-laminating with age. And the seams do pop sometimes.

[drurb]

Around and around we go...

Check here from just a few days ago.

[MingusAmongUs]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

I've heard of plywood de-laminating with age. And the seams do pop sometimes.

hah.... that's what I thought the OP meant when I read the title.

This is one of those discussions that comes up now and then. I don't think it will ever be answered definitively. Lots of different opinions on the subject. My POV is, wood is wood, to a certain extent, and every wooden instrument will change in character over time. Laminated probably much less than carved, but I don't see why you wouldn't expect a ply bass to change at all. There are still solid elements in the bass -- blocks, neck, bridge, etc -- these will all mature. Take that with a grain of salt.

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by MingusAmongUs

hah.... that's what I thought the OP meant when I read the title.

This is one of those discussions that comes up now and then. I don't think it will ever be answered definitively. Lots of different opinions on the subject. My POV is, wood is wood, to a certain extent, and every wooden instrument will change in character over time. Laminated probably much less than carved, but I don't see why you wouldn't expect a ply bass to change at all. There are still solid elements in the bass -- blocks, neck, bridge, etc -- these will all mature. Take that with a grain of salt.

That all makes good sense to me. It's plausible that plywood over time might lose some internal stress and relax just like carved wood. But I wouldn't expect it to sound like aged carved wood. I know of two great sounding old Kays, but they still don't have that carved tone that is generally fuller in the bottom more complex in the mids and a lot mellower in the highs that one hears in even a brand new carved bass. The difference is usually far more pronounced in an arco situation.

I actually find it very strange that there is so much buzz about "better" plywoods. It makes me think that we are certainly running out of good tonewood otherwise no one would bother trying to improve plywood. And it would even be odder I think to ponder whether or not these sound better with age. Of course when we run out of old growth wood, it will be a long time before there is any, so perhaps the question is timely. We can hope it gets better with age... It was a process that was designed to deliver a reasonable sounding student grade instrument for a very low price. For the original buyer of a plywood instrument the concern was probably more that it would continue to sound at least as good as it started out and not come apart until the student either gave it up or progressed. Now the focus is on competing with carved instruments directly. So I am wondering what these "better" plywoods will be like in 50 years? True there is a lot that can be improved about an instrument made by a laminating process, but it is still plywood no matter what you use for the filler. What is the potential that in 200 years it will be a valuable old relic "attributed" to a maker because the maker was not well known? Will the odd one show up in a Symphony next to a Prescott or a Klotz? I'm not truly a carved bass snob, but it seems to me that elevating plywood beyond beginner or student instruments might be a passing fad. Of course I started on a plywood DB and learned enough to progress to a carved one. It's a good place to start.

[jfv]

Originally Posted by MingusAmongUs

hah.... that's what I thought the OP meant when I read the title.

This is one of those discussions that comes up now and then. I don't think it will ever be answered definitively. Lots of different opinions on the subject. My POV is, wood is wood, to a certain extent, and every wooden instrument will change in character over time. Laminated probably much less than carved, but I don't see why you wouldn't expect a ply bass to change at all. There are still solid elements in the bass -- blocks, neck, bridge, etc -- these will all mature. Take that with a grain of salt.

Lots of opinions, ya, and all opinions are not created
equal. Find a pro jazz or classical player who plays
ply and tells you how it has mellowed over their 20 years
of playing that instrument.... uhuh

Wood is wood, so I guess Charmin must use the
mellow aged stuff

[M Ramsey]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

That all makes good sense to me. It's plausible that plywood over time might lose some internal stress and relax just like carved wood. But I wouldn't expect it to sound like aged carved wood. I know of two great sounding old Kays, but they still don't have that carved tone that is generally fuller in the bottom more complex in the mids and a lot mellower in the highs that one hears in even a brand new carved bass. The difference is usually far more pronounced in an arco situation.

I actually find it very strange that there is so much buzz about "better" plywoods. It makes me think that we are certainly running out of good tonewood otherwise no one would bother trying to improve plywood. And it would even be odder I think to ponder whether or not these sound better with age. Of course when we run out of old growth wood, it will be a long time before there is any, so perhaps the question is timely. We can hope it gets better with age... It was a process that was designed to deliver a reasonable sounding student grade instrument for a very low price. For the original buyer of a plywood instrument the concern was probably more that it would continue to sound at least as good as it started out and not come apart until the student either gave it up or progressed. Now the focus is on competing with carved instruments directly. So I am wondering what these "better" plywoods will be like in 50 years? True there is a lot that can be improved about an instrument made by a laminating process, but it is still plywood no matter what you use for the filler. What is the potential that in 200 years it will be a valuable old relic "attributed" to a maker because the maker was not well known? Will the odd one show up in a Symphony next to a Prescott or a Klotz? I'm not truly a carved bass snob, but it seems to me that elevating plywood beyond beginner or student instruments might be a passing fad. Of course I started on a plywood DB and learned enough to progress to a carved one. It's a good place to start.

The direct question was do plywood instruments "open up" after a time of playing. I know they do and we had that discussion (quite heated by some parties at some points) a couple of months back. I know my plywood instruments do "open up" meaning sound better after a short (maybe 1 hour) time of playing. They become more responsive. I would believe that the sound of a "new" plywood would be fairly "tight" sounding as compared to one that maybe has been played regularly for 40 years or more.

As to the point that Silversorcerer brings up about a plywood instrument becoming "collectable" or "more valuable" has already taken place. The American Standard is what Arnold used to pattern (with improvements/modifications) his New Standard Cleveland model after.

I remember reading that these instruemnts (American Standard) were sold new for about $625 in the early-to-mid 1960's when Kay bought the company out and ceased building them. Now, 40 years later, these same plywood instruments bring between $3000-$6000 each, so they have increased in value and are highly sought after for what they are. Plywood basses.

I've been trying to help a friend find one since mid-May and they are becoming scarce. BTW, he is a classicly trained bassist who teaches bass to 30 or so students and plays a $35,000 solid bass, while owning another Romano Solano (and waiting on another). Other firends I know, who play them and own them (American Standard), have determined that the limited number on the market have "settled" and there's not many available to those wanting to buy.

The design is pretty good, since Arnold is still taking orders for his "New Standard" and is able to maintain his price. There are many, many words of praise listed here in the pages of Talkbass from satisfied owners and those who have been fortunate enough to try them.

Most folks seeking these Standards (either American or New) are into playing pizzicato and the plywoods seem to work very well for those playing styles.

There are differences everywhere in all aspects of life. These differences make life appealing, interesting to those participating or observing. Differences in styles of instruments also help to keep different builders/suppliers moving along as well. If things were all the same, it would make for a more boring life and very little to talk and discuss.

Other opinions expected and respected,

[MingusAmongUs]

Originally Posted by M Ramsey

The direct question was do plywood instruments "open up" after a time of playing. I know they do and we had that discussion (quite heated by some parties at some points) a couple of months back. I know my plywood instruments do "open up" meaning sound better after a short (maybe 1 hour) time of playing.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it was actually "do plys open up with age". Whether they open up after an hour of playing is another question altogether... similar but different. And one I can't answer.

Also, I missed the second question from the OP, about the "stickiness" of the neck on a lam bass. I might be wrong about this, but that is purely a result of the varnish choice, and AFAIK it has little or nothing to do with whether the bass is carved or ply. Some basses have a "sticky", glossy, spirit varnish on the neck. Others have an oil finish. Some folks strip that area down to bare wood for a super smooth feel. I guess it's fair to say that cheaper plys, or those made with durability in mind above all else, will tend to have that thick glossy finish, not only on the neck but often on the whole bass. But there are lots of plys out there with a smooth dry neck. There are lots of posts about DIY neck-stripping here. It can be done. If you're careful.

[bribass]

Originally Posted by Libersolis

I know that carved basses generally are supposed to open up and sound better with age, but what about good ply's? For instance will the Cleveland's sound even better in 50 years? Also one thing I dislike about laminates is the sticky feeling on the back of the neck as opposed to the smooth feel of the carved I own. Is this just a characteristic of ply's or are there plywoods with the smooth feel?

One of my basses is a Juzek labeled ply that I have owned sine 1980. I believe it to be from the early 1950's or so. It definately has a more mature, less stident sound than some brand new Shen's that I have tried. I'm sure it's age hasn't hurt the tone any, but it doesn't compare to my German or Prescott carved basses.

It's does not have any kind of sticky feel behind the neck. That may be due to some finish that is on your neck. That being said, my 1920's carved German bass has a Beachwood neck and in the summer it tends to absorb alot of moisture during our heavy humidity days here in the Northeast. When that happens the neck feels a little softer and sickyish. If your neck is made of a softer wood this could happen I suppose.

BG

[charmicarmicat]

Just FYI if you calculate inflation etc. something that was bought in 1960 for $625.00 will cost around 4-4.5K nowadays.

Originally Posted by M Ramsey

I remember reading that these instruemnts (American Standard) were sold new for about $625 in the early-to-mid 1960's when Kay bought the company out and ceased building them. Now, 40 years later, these same plywood instruments bring between $3000-$6000 each, so they have increased in value and are highly sought after for what they are. Plywood basses.

[jmpiwonka]

my bass teacher thought that plys do sound better as they get older. he said something about the glue becoming a bit brittle and then it probably cracks or spiderwebs some (kinda like finish checking on nitro finish fenders) and that allows the wood to vibrate more freely or open up.
i trust his opinon, he is a very smart guy.

[Silversorcerer]

The cost equivalent in real wage dollars is frequently missed when these instruments are said to have increased in value. In fact they have just barely kept up with inflation. An increase in cost does not always indicate an increase in relative value. And I would still contend that the major purpose of plywood constuction was student instruments that were affordable to masses when the cost of good wood and skilled labor went up. Of course that has changed. But in the mid 60's even a cheap factory made classical student guitar was solid wood. And student grade basses that were mass produced were made with good tops. Those 1900's shop basses with solid tops are the ones that have increased in value the most if they are in good condition.

[wineaux]

I obviously don't know what my 1934 Herold Jaeger ply sounded like "in the day" but it sounds better/warmer now than any other plywood bass I've played. My instructor has a 1933 Jaeger carved UB, and to my ear there's not a lot of difference in tone. (There is a heck of a lot of difference in the PLAYING, but I'm working on that!) Since I found the Jaeger and got it back from my luthier a month or so ago, I haven't touched my other ply -- a two-year-old Aubert that is stiff and clunky by comparison.

[Michael Eisenman]

As I age, I don't notice when my ply's open.

[bribass]

Originally Posted by wineaux

I obviously don't know what my 1934 Herold Jaeger ply sounded like "in the day" but it sounds better/warmer now than any other plywood bass I've played. My instructor has a 1933 Jaeger carved UB, and to my ear there's not a lot of difference in tone. (There is a heck of a lot of difference in the PLAYING, but I'm working on that!) Since I found the Jaeger and got it back from my luthier a month or so ago, I haven't touched my other ply -- a two-year-old Aubert that is stiff and clunky by comparison.

That's gotta be a VERY early ply. I thought plywood basses didn't appear on the market until the late '30's.

[wineaux]

Originally Posted by bribass

That's gotta be a VERY early ply. I thought plywood basses didn't appear on the market until the late '30's.

Bribass,

I was surprised, for the same reason, when I found it. It looks like a carved top, has purfuling and some cracks like a carved top (but only on the surface) and has a great sound. It even fooled my instructor. But my luthier, who does work for the National Symphony Orchestra, wasn't fooled. I was disappointed at first, but now I am proud to own and play this beast.

[peterpalmieri]

Originally Posted by charmicarmicat

Just FYI if you calculate inflation etc. something that was bought in 1960 for $625.00 will cost around 4-4.5K nowadays.

I hate to be to technical because I generally agree with your point but. The rate of inflation based on CPI from 1926 to 2005 is 3.04% , based on my calculations that's a little over $2000....Although I didn't calculate in the "etc"

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by wineaux

I obviously don't know what my 1934 Herold Jaeger ply sounded like "in the day" but it sounds better/warmer now than any other plywood bass I've played. My instructor has a 1933 Jaeger carved UB, and to my ear there's not a lot of difference in tone. (There is a heck of a lot of difference in the PLAYING, but I'm working on that!) Since I found the Jaeger and got it back from my luthier a month or so ago, I haven't touched my other ply -- a two-year-old Aubert that is stiff and clunky by comparison.

Much of the benefit to playing carved vs. ply is not as much the sound, but the effort it takes to produce a good sound and making smooth transitions between the sounds.

A ply should sound better with age for the same reasons a carved does.
The wood gets drier and all that - but it is still glued on top of each other in opposing directions!

[DocBop]

I'm a DB newbie and just got used one of the basses everyone around hear hates, but I didn't want to spend a lot on a first bass and it does have a good bottom and balance for an inexpensive bass. My questioin is I hear everyone say plywood basses, but is this special plywood for musical instruments.

I know in my guitar days I had a Gibson ES175 their enty level Jazz box and it is a plywood top. But in checking it out it is a special laminate for musical instruments. Are these inexpensive basses using something like that? I only ask because I have seen some cheap slab guitars made with plywood or worse wood that was still green.

My bass I'm very happy with. I have a lot to learn and it will get me there and then I'll deserve a better instrument. My only issue is with summer the neck gets a bit sticky when practicing. I'm thinking of getting some fine steel wool and cleaning it up

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

I hate to be to technical because I generally agree with your point but. The rate of inflation based on CPI from 1926 to 2005 is 3.04% , based on my calculations that's a little over $2000....Although I didn't calculate in the "etc"

The 20's were one of the most inflated decades. That was just before the crash and some things were very expensive at the time.