Eberle Carved or Kay 1972, which would you rather have?

[Jesse Rosenburg]

I appeal to you who have to go with cheaper basses. I'd love to have one over $10K, but it's just not possible.

[Gearhead43]

Kay wasn't making basses in 1972, Engelhardt was.

[Jsn]

Originally Posted by Gearhead43

Kay wasn't making basses in 1972, Engelhardt was.

Which means this one is a rare collectible!

Seriously: I love my Kay, but it ain't carved. That's MY answer. You answer depends on variables you haven't stated: what style of music you play, whether you use the bow much, and what are the prevailing conditions where you play.

And then there are the variables of the basses themselves. Both Kay and Eberle have made some wonderful instruments, but also their share of lemons.

If you don't know the answer, your ears do.

[Jesse Rosenburg]

Originally Posted by Gearhead43

Kay wasn't making basses in 1972, Engelhardt was.

Yes, I know that. My Engelhardt has the Kay moniker on the tailpiece.

I don't get to play the Eberle. It's a bit of a blind trade. The Eberle will be set up by an expert luthier with Bel Canto strings.

My Kay was a rental, I bought it over 20 years ago, when I couldn't afford much. It plays well and sounds well. It needs new strings which started this all.

I've always liked the Kay form factor. I grew up with it. My school bass was a fabled pre-war Kay.

I play orchestral stuff, especially baroque music. For myself, I play solo stuff. I've always hated pizz. I live in the dry climate of Colorado.

I've had a cheap nameless German bass in between that I hated. It was all the money my parents would let me spend.

I've also played just wonderful instruments owned by my college bass teacher. I can't afford that right now either, having just retired.

I just wondered whether there were other Eberle players out there who might have an opinion.

The Kay/Engelhardt

[Jsn]

Hmmm...trade a bass you enjoy and have owned for 20 years, in exchange for a pig-in-a-poke bass you've never played?

I'd think long and hard about that one. Even if the Eberle is technically more valuable, there's no guarantee it's going to give you the sound you want, just by virtue of being "carved". Also, since you say you like the Kay form factor, you may not enjoy the neck geometry of the Eberle.

You say your Kay "plays and sounds well". That doesn't sound like something to gamble away. I understand that with your arco emphasis, you'd like to move up to the more sonically subtle realms of a carved or hybrid. I'm in a similar boat, and like you I've been offered straight-across trades. But even with the option of playing the proposed-swap instruments, I've always ended up passing on the trade. The bass offered was, in the spirit of the deal, ultimately a fair trade, which means it had a different but roughly equivalent set of plusses and minuses.

[LeslieD]

Comparing a plywood Kay to a carved Eberle is like comparing apples and oranges. I've only played two plywood Eberles, and both were amazing for plywood basses (though were better for pizz than for bowing).

I've played numerous kays (classical music) in various places (including Colorado, Maryland, Tennessee, California, Pennsyvlania). They were lousy for orchestral music no matter where I lived/played. I think you'll never be terribly happy with your Kay, but you are probably somewhat used to how it feels. When I played in high school and college I often went back and forth between my plywood Eberle (which I played at home) and the school's Kay basses. It was a pretty easy transition, and the necks felt pretty similar. Orchestral music still sounded lousy on the plywood Eberle.

Anyway, I've always been interested in what a carved Eberle would sound like (since I REALLY like my plywood Eberle). I've been told by two well-known East coast luthiers that the Musima factory workers really knew what they were doing when they designed/built their basses (it stems from years and years of knowledge/skill from the local luthiers who were forced to work in the factories during the Cold War). I'd really love to get a carved bass from that region in Germany (Markneukirchen), which is where the Eberle/Musima basses are from. What I have noticed about plywood Eberle basses is that they are considerably less beefy than any Kay bass. I'd be a little concerned that the Eberle carved bass might also be on the fragile side. But if you're not playing in bars or outside, that shouldn't be a problem.

One last thing: money-wise you might be on the losing side of your trade for a carved Eberle. The Kay basses really hold their value, and the Eberle basses haven't (the carved Eberles have probably appreciated more than the plys of course). In the 31 years I've owned my Eberle, it's worth about $200 less than what my parents paid for it in the late 70s. I think on the average that the Kay basses value have increased four- and five-fold (more maybe) over the same period of time. That's all because of the demand for Kays in bluegrass music and such.

I think you might like the carved Eberle if you could just buy it outright and then either keep or sell your Kay on your own.

Good luck with your decision.

[Bass]

I would rather have a Kay 1972.

[Nagrom]

I wouldn't consider the carved Eberle to be fragile at all. Mine made the transition from NYC October weather to the prairies, bounced across rough gravel roads in northern Saskatchewan in early spring weather, straight onto a train up into -30 degree Arctic weather conditions on the shore on Hudson's Bay in late March for 5 days, then return to a climate 40 degrees warmer and much wetter. It lives in a place where weather and humidity can change drastically day to day, sometimes hour to hour.

Through all this, it has developed a wee spot of rug burn on the bouts.

Regardless, if I was going to do a straight trade for something else, it could not happen without playing the other. Its' like you're trading a van for an SUV, some similarities, lots of differences, but no guarantee you'll like the particular unit more or less than what you already have.

[Gearhead43]

If you aren't happy with the Kay, there's a ton of folks who would be more than happy to have it.

Sell it, don't trade it.

[LeslieD]

Originally Posted by Nagrom

I wouldn't consider the carved Eberle to be fragile at all...

That's good to know. Now I want one!

[LouisF]

I've seen a couple of Kays like this(below, from the ISB) want ads. A player in my community orchestra has a Kay, much like yours in that he had it for years, loved it, spent the money seriously upgrading it, and uses it everywhere. It sound sgreat.

Having said that, I ordered a carved Eberle from Steve a couple of years ago, set it up and loved it. Built like a tank and plays very well.

Louis



Maker/Nationality: Kay, American
Performing Capacity: Solo; Orchestral; Chamber; Jazz
String Setup: 4-String
Description: This Kay has received the benefit of extensive luthier work, which is reflected in its price. Work done by the Gage shop in NYC and Canyon Music Woodworks in southwest Colorado. The neck has been off (though never broken!) and reset twice, eliminating all of the dreck that is usually in Kay neck joints. The fingerboard is excellent ebony, properly dressed, and the bridge is a best quality Aubert. Pecanic tailpiece. I have never seen another Kay of this age in this condition. Used at home only for the past 15 years; possibly gigged in New Orleans a long time ago. Obligatos are on it now.
CODE: 092909

[Pentabass]

Originally Posted by Nagrom

I wouldn't consider the carved Eberle to be fragile at all. Mine made the transition from NYC October weather to the prairies, bounced across rough gravel roads in northern Saskatchewan in early spring weather, straight onto a train up into -30 degree Arctic weather conditions on the shore on Hudson's Bay in late March for 5 days, then return to a climate 40 degrees warmer and much wetter. It lives in a place where weather and humidity can change drastically day to day, sometimes hour to hour.

ah, I seem to remember somebody asking about taking the train to Churchill ! So how did it go? Dig up the old thread and give us a report, please.

Btw, my carved Eberle is like a tank, maybe too much wood?
Good bowing sounds, for sure.

[Ed Fuqua]

It's still pig/poke. Factory basses are nice, I have one and I love it. But the chances are that the one finished before it and the one finished after don't sound like mine. When a buddy of mine was looking for a bass down in East Bum****, he called up some shop in Atlanta and sure come on up we have some nice carved basses in your price range. But they all sounded thin. Another cat from Augusta bought a carved German without playing it, pretty much the same deal - thin sound, no projection etc etc.
There are great sounding plys and bad sounding carved.

I can't say you won't get a great sounding bass. But I can't say you will either....

[Nagrom]

Churchill is an amazing place. I'll spill later.

[jtlownds]

So far, most of the posts read like you are trading a Kay for a carved Eberle. That bass IS NOT A KAY, regardless of what the tailpiece says. Kays have an inflated collector value, and Egleharts do not. Does the person that you are going to trade with know that this thing is an Englehart? If not, you may be on the verge of committing fraud.

[lunarpollen]

How old is the Eberle?

My plywood Eberle is built like a tank. If their carved basses are anything similar, sturdiness-wise, then I doubt you'd have to worry about it being delicate or flimsy at all.

[LeslieD]

Originally Posted by jtlownds

So far, most of the posts read like you are trading a Kay for a carved Eberle. That bass IS NOT A KAY, regardless of what the tailpiece says. Kays have an inflated collector value, and Egleharts do not. Does the person that you are going to trade with know that this thing is an Englehart? If not, you may be on the verge of committing fraud.

Oops. I wasn't paying attention. Yes, it sounds like your "Kay" bass may not be all that valuable afterall.

[shakernow]

Originally Posted by lunarpollen

My plywood Eberle is built like a tank. If their carved basses are anything similar, sturdiness-wise, then I doubt you'd have to worry about it being delicate or flimsy at all.

One thing that I have heard about Eberles is that, while the build overall is robust, the neck joints have a habit of popping if the neck is bumped the wrong way. Don't know if this applies to older or newer Eberles, but that is what I heard, FWIW.

[LeslieD]

Originally Posted by shakernow

One thing that I have heard about Eberles is that, while the build overall is robust, the neck joints have a habit of popping if the neck is bumped the wrong way. Don't know if this applies to older or newer Eberles, but that is what I heard, FWIW.

Yes, that happened to my plywood Eberle. I don't know if it's a problem with the carved ones. My luthier told me it was just glued very poorly. It turned out to be an easy and inexpensive fix (less than $200).

[Sam Sherry]

If we're talking about your one-and-only bass and you can't play it first you're a fool to bite. The Eberle may well totally smoke your Kay/Engel. On the other hand, you could easily find that it needs $2500 in repairs.