The Economy of Double Bass

[MK1]

This question is for the older guys. I finally purchased my first double bass and from what I've read the price of it is pretty close to the lowest that should be spend on a decent student bass. This was quite a chunk of change for myself, but is much, much lower than a decent bass can cost.
My question is in the days when there were no bass guitars or when the bass guitar was brand new (40's-early 50's), were double basses (comparatively) as expensive as they are now? If they were how was every bassist able to afford one? Or has the lack of demand, and the prevalence of the electric bass guitar driven up the cost of the less common (in rock music at least) double bass?
I love this forum because I'm sure I'm about to learn quite a bit, and it's amazing to have access to the experience of guys who have seen more than I have.
Thanks,
Matt

[Dave Irwin]

I'm not old enough to give a first hand account but I just read a post on a fellow selling his father's Prescott.
He said his father paid $80 for the bass which was more than 100 years old when he bought it in 1950.
In today's terms, that $80 would come to $2200-$2500.

I don't think $2200 will buy a bass equal to 100+ year old Prescott (ofcourse that same Prescott may be around to 40-50k today, now that it's closer to 200 years old)


Hope this helps.

[TroyK]

Things like Kays were available in department stores back in the day too. The market for doublebasses is so much smaller than it was before Mr. Fender came along, so I can't see that happening again. I don't know what Kay's retailed for at Montgomery Ward or wherever they were sold, but I'm sure it wasn't much. Maybe someone else knows.

I saw a Jazz Messengers video just the other day and Jaime Merritt was playing what was clearly a very modest plywood bass, but of course he sounded great and that band was swinging the doors off.

Dave, tell your friend I'll give him $80 for that Prescott right now, no haggling.

[fdeck]

Some hypotheses:

1. The lumber is getting more and more scarce, whereas technology has reduced the amount of raw material required for most consumer products, as those materials get more scarce. Cars can be made of thinner metal, but basses can't be made of thinner wood. More and more food gets grown on the same amount of land. Many industries benefit from effectively subsidized energy.

2. Technology hasn't increased the productivity of the individual luthier very much, whereas most other industries (which form the basis of price indexes) have made huge gains in worker productivity through technology.

[Dave Irwin]

I'd say the Luthier's time and plain old inflation factors in as much or more than anything.
For some reason 12 weeks sticks in my mind as a practical build time for a hand made bass. If the Luthier aspires to $40,000/yr (not much in many areas of the country), they would need 9600 out of the bass. That's after paying for the wood and all other expenses.
So you can adjust the above numbers as needed but I think the story is the same.

[chris1125]

Originally Posted by TroyK

Things like Kays were available in department stores back in the day too. The market for doublebasses is so much smaller than it was before Mr. Fender came along, so I can't see that happening again. I don't know what Kay's retailed for at Montgomery Ward or wherever they were sold, but I'm sure it wasn't much. Maybe someone else knows.

I saw a Jazz Messengers video just the other day and Jaime Merritt was playing what was clearly a very modest plywood bass, but of course he sounded great and that band was swinging the doors off.

Dave, tell your friend I'll give him $80 for that Prescott right now, no haggling.

Originally Posted by Dave Irwin

I'm not old enough to give a first hand account but I just read a post on a fellow selling his father's Prescott.
He said his father paid $80 for the bass which was more than 100 years old when he bought it in 1950.
In today's terms, that $80 would come to $2200-$2500.

I don't think $2200 will buy a bass equal to 100+ year old Prescott (ofcourse that same Prescott may be around to 40-50k today, now that it's closer to 200 years old)


Hope this helps.

Haha... I'll tell you what, I'll one up you and add an extra 0 to that $80. $800 where ever/whatever condition.

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by chris1125

Haha... I'll tell you what, I'll one up you and add an extra 0 to that $80. $800 where ever/whatever condition.

$801

[Marty Forrer]

I saw an advert from the 1930s from an English newspaper. It had new double basses (solid top), made in England, for 7 pounds 15 shillings, which I guess may have been about US$15? I dont know what the average British worker's wages were then, but I'm sure it was all relative.

[Jazzdogg]

Originally Posted by fdeck

Some hypotheses:

1. The lumber is getting more and more scarce, whereas technology has reduced the amount of raw material required for most consumer products, as those materials get more scarce. Cars can be made of thinner metal, but basses can't be made of thinner wood. More and more food gets grown on the same amount of land. Many industries benefit from effectively subsidized energy.

2. Technology hasn't increased the productivity of the individual luthier very much, whereas most other industries (which form the basis of price indexes) have made huge gains in worker productivity through technology.

At least two trends come to mind:

Stationary and hand-held power tools capable of reducing the labor of bass building have become widely available at prices affordable to weekend builders in the past 60 years;

Over the last 60 years there's been a decrease in the number of luthiers qualified to craft a high-quality carved instrument, and apprenticeships aren't a numerable as they were.

Used instruments and new instruments made in Asia seem to comprise the bulk of the affordable DB market.

[chris1125]

Originally Posted by TroyK

$801

$1,000 That's were I draw the line... I am not gettin in a bidding war on the non existent prescott.

Anwywaysm this is a very good question that I have always wondered about... What you have to keep in mind is that "department store" basses weren't necessarily the best offered. They mainly offered things like Morellis, which were sort of like a simialer thing to todays upton bass shop. They were "shop" mass production basses, were they not? If I am not mistaken, when you refer to a prescott bass aren't you referring to a bass coming from the prescott shop, even if not touched by prescott himself? This was not necessarily the best quality wood, they came from the floors of old churches. The wood was probobly beat up and odly shaped to start out with! That is why I love thinking about all of the possibilities of the basses being made now. The new basses are being made with good quality materials and in 100 or 200 years, they could potentially compare to the greats. I don't know.. Just an idea. When I got my first Shen 80, I bought it for $800 I believe. Now, they are nearly $2,000! It has been only 7 or 8 years. Just goes to show that as long as there are bass players, the prices will keep going up and up. Even more so with bows!

[TheSuzie]

Originally Posted by chris1125

When I got my first Shen 80, I bought it for $800 I believe. Now, they are nearly $2,000! It has been only 7 or 8 years. Just goes to show that as long as there are bass players, the prices will keep going up and up. Even more so with bows!

Nick Lloyd's site shows the SB80 at $1420 including setup and bag. One thing to note is that Chinese currency has gained over 20% against the dollar since late 2005. There is some difference but not as much as it seems at first glance. Also I think Shen had to have low prices in the past in order to establish themselves in the market and build their reputation.

Peace,
S

[jzbass6]

Originally Posted by TroyK

I saw a Jazz Messengers video just the other day and Jaime Merritt was playing what was clearly a very modest plywood bass, but of course he sounded great and that band was swinging the doors off.

I recently went to see Stanley Clarke and he was playing accordingto him a $600.00 chinese bass and he sounded fantastic.

[dobrien]

In the 70's Kays,Epiphones and Framus plywoods went for about, $100 to $200 depending on condition. Kays were the least desirable because of the small tuning pegs, but they were the cheapest. My tyrolian bass was bought for $1500 in '75 and is now worth about 20k. You could by a Pollmann for about $600.

[ole Jason]

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

Over the last 60 years there's been a decrease in the number of luthiers qualified to craft a high-quality carved instrument, and apprenticeships aren't a numerable as they were.

This is an important point.

For comparison you should price out some good handmade furniture today compared with what it cost years ago when handmade furniture was the norm.

[PaulCannon]

Couldn't this be a big reason for the decline of music programs in public schools? How are schools supposed to run a program when they've spent their entire budget on one instrument?

[MollyKay]

Originally Posted by TroyK

I don't know what Kay's retailed for at Montgomery Ward or wherever they were sold, but I'm sure it wasn't much. Maybe someone else knows.

Here are some vintage ads with prices. This spans the early 1940's -early 1960's.

1946



1941



Post WW2 1946



1946



1958 -1960

[bassist1962]

When my bro in law purchased the bass now in my possession, sometime between 1959 and 1962, he paid $800. When I took possession in 2006 I did some research, and discovered that this bass listed for $13,000, retail was around $6 - 9k, depending on dealer. It is a carved German shop instrument. I was offered $3500 by the luthier a month ago.

[Stev187]

I'm not saying that CCB's of today are the same as Czech factory basses of 100 years ago, but here's something interesting... Here are the prices of a New York "jobber" that imported Bohemian/Czech basses near the turn of the last century (this catalog dates from 1915-1916):



This was a wholesale catalog; merchants bought these basses from the NY importer and resold them. Using the CPI to determine 2011 prices, the approximate prices of these basses (from cheapest to most expensive) would be roughly $986, $1,314, $1,972, and $3,725.

--Steve

[Anthony Fury]

I really like this thread.

Next question: what was MSRP for a '51 Precision?

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

$122.50 if memory serves. By the time the Jazz Bass was introduced in 1960, retail prices had gone up to about $200.

EDIT -- I'm not sure what amplifiers cost. I remember reading that Ampeg Portaflexes were something like $800 in the mid-60s.