Educated Opinion

RRunner · #1 02-22-2010, 04:05 PM

I have a choice between a K61 Johannes Kohr and a ES-9 Englehardt. Both have adj. bridges, paded bags, & Pist. Obl. strings. Both have a great setup, play great, & are in great shape. What would you do?

LouisF · #2 02-22-2010, 05:58 PM

I had a K62 Busetto for a while (which was basically an upgraded Christopher hybdrid). I think the K61s are made in Korea (some of their higher end models are made in Germany - they tend to shop around as a company for suppliers). In this case, sight unseen, not hearing either bass, it's very hard to give an opinion... BUT...

In this case, all things being equal, I'd go with the Englehart... but that's just a VERY uneducated guess.

Louis

rusag2 · #3 02-22-2010, 06:38 PM

The best answer is, of course, play 'em both, and get the one that inspires you the most.

However, all other things being equal, my personal choice would be to buy the US-made product for a few reasons, all based on the fact that I live in the US:

1. I live in the US and want to "buy American"
2. Parts and repairs are likely to be cheaper and more easily found for the Englehardt.
3. Resale is likely to be stronger with the Englehardt because it's a "known brand" and for reasons 1 and 2 (above)

Of course, if you live in another country, these points may be entirely invalid.

Cheers

RRunner · #4 02-22-2010, 09:43 PM

Well, I live in North Carolina. The deal is, I was looking at a UB Standard, was just about to buy one and they jacked the price up $400. All together that put it over $2600. by the time I got it shipped in. Short of me flyin to Boston, this was sight unseen or played, an I'm not comfortable with that. So these basses are with in short driving distance of my house. Here's the real zinger, while I've been making up my mind in the last couple of months I have found a 1941 Kay S-51. It looks like a new one and plays like a dream. I just want a resonable priced 4 string that won't fly apart with age.

gbaker · #5 02-23-2010, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRunner

Well, I live in North Carolina. The deal is, I was looking at a UB Standard, was just about to buy one and they jacked the price up $400. All together that put it over $2600. by the time I got it shipped in. Short of me flyin to Boston, this was sight unseen or played, an I'm not comfortable with that. So these basses are with in short driving distance of my house. Here's the real zinger, while I've been making up my mind in the last couple of months I have found a 1941 Kay S-51. It looks like a new one and plays like a dream. I just want a resonable priced 4 string that won't fly apart with age.

Chase that '41 down quick.

I played a '41 (looked like a C-1) for a weekend last year and it was a winner. Needed some neck work but it was the Best sounding Kay I have ever heard.

Tejano Bass · #6 02-23-2010, 04:08 AM

Of the three . . . Kay! - Hands Down!! No Contest!!!

If for no other reason - It's the only one that you could ever expect to get your $$$ back in the future. . .

F Y I - http://www.kaybass.com/#MODELS

PsychoScout · #7 02-23-2010, 04:16 AM

Is it just my perception, or is there a much higher "brand-awareness" in the US, compared to Europe?
I have no brand-awareness at all (but, this could be due to the fact that I don't know *** about the DB-market)

Paul Warburton · #8 02-23-2010, 05:50 AM

I ain't gonna get alotta love on this but I've said it before here. IMO, Englehart basses are P's O S's. From the cheap glued on scroll volutes to the bottom of the line end-pins, pure crap.(IMO)
And future more, IMO, this whole pieces of "Americana" thing about Kay basses has gone from the strange and "mosied" into the bizarre.
If you want a dull sounding bass with little or no sustain when you pizz, I can dig it. I can understand why Bluegrass players go for that "thuddy" sound, because it's part of the music.

In jazz, with the three exceptions of Israel Crosby, Slam Stewart and Chubby Jackson on records, and in person I've never heard a Kay bass stand out. (IME). (a good reason to like them, I guess).
I asked Slam once why, besides the fact that he got them for free, he liked the Kays...he said because they sounded kind of dull and blended better with his voice than a carved bass.
Oh please, don't hate me too much.

LeslieD · #9 02-23-2010, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

I ain't gonna get alotta love on this but I've said it before here. IMO, Englehart basses are P's O S's. From the cheap glued on scroll volutes to the bottom of the line end-pins, pure crap.(IMO)
And future more, IMO, this whole pieces of "Americana" thing about Kay basses has gone from the strange and "mosied" into the bizarre.
If you want a dull sounding bass with little or no sustain when you pizz, I can dig it. I can understand why Bluegrass players go for that "thuddy" sound, because it's part of the music.

In jazz, with the three exceptions of Israel Crosby, Slam Stewart and Chubby Jackson on records, and in person I've never heard a Kay bass stand out. (IME). (a good reason to like them, I guess).
I asked Slam once why, besides the fact that he got them for free, he liked the Kays...he said because they sounded kind of dull and blended better with his voice than a carved bass.
Oh please, don't hate me too much.

How funny! I completely agree about the Englehart basses, and the Kays I played in Jr High and H.S. were absolute junk (and it wasn't just the bad set-ups). I did find a Kay at last year's ISB that had good sustain and was less "thuddy" than any I'd ever played before...so they exist...but are still way over-rated for what most people are asking. I even play in a bluegrass group, and a Kay wouldn't be my first choice...though I admit that I'm not helping my band with their image (and my basses just don't look right for our publicity photos). Can I borrow someone's Kay for our photo sessions?! (My apologies to Kay and Englehart lovers).

To the OP--can you keep looking a little longer before you make your decision? I understand that $2600 is a bit much for your budget, but there have been some good bargains in the TB classifieds in the last several months (even though you might have to drive to NY or DC to get it). Can you expand your search to a few neighboring states? It's not uncommon to have to make a few road trips to find a good instrument. Best of luck in your search/decision!

Paul Warburton · #10 02-23-2010, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeslieD

To the OP--can you keep looking a little longer before you make your decision? I understand that $2600 is a bit much for your budget, but there have been some good bargains in the TB classifieds in the last several months (even though you might have to drive to NY or DC to get it). Can you expand your search to a few neighboring states? It's not uncommon to have to make a few road trips to find a good instrument. Best of luck in your search/decision!

Actually, I was gonna say pretty much that same thing, but got busy with that rant.
+1 on the TB classifieds too.

mesmithnm · #11 02-23-2010, 08:47 AM

I have one of those k61's - mine is about 10 years old, I think, and it's either Korean or Chinese. It's a perfectly good student plywood bass and if the price is right and it has no problems (I wouldn't pay more than $1k and I'd only go that high because you said it's set up well) AND you like it, it might be a reasonable choice. I traded a '52 Kay M1-B and got the k61 and a chunk of cash. The other party was delighted to get a Kay and I was delighted to get rid of it, so we were both happy. After owning and playing Kays, I'm in the camp that thinks they are way over priced for what they are. There probably are some really good ones out there, but I haven't played them.

Mark

Paul Warburton · #12 02-23-2010, 08:56 AM

Whatz up? I expect hate and get some love from Leslie and Mark.
I'm gettin' outta here while things are good and before the ass-kicking starts.

drurb · #13 02-23-2010, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

I ain't gonna get alotta love on this but I've said it before here. IMO, Englehart basses are P's O S's. From the cheap glued on scroll volutes to the bottom of the line end-pins, pure crap.(IMO)
And future more, IMO, this whole pieces of "Americana" thing about Kay basses has gone from the strange and "mosied" into the bizarre.
If you want a dull sounding bass with little or no sustain when you pizz, I can dig it. I can understand why Bluegrass players go for that "thuddy" sound, because it's part of the music.

In jazz, with the three exceptions of Israel Crosby, Slam Stewart and Chubby Jackson on records, and in person I've never heard a Kay bass stand out. (IME). (a good reason to like them, I guess).
I asked Slam once why, besides the fact that he got them for free, he liked the Kays...he said because they sounded kind of dull and blended better with his voice than a carved bass.
Oh please, don't hate me too much.

I'm sending you love on this one! Appreciate you havin' the ***** to say it. I sure agree. I also agree about Slam. Had a nice conversation with him as well when I was all of 17.

PsychoScout · #14 02-23-2010, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

Whatz up? I expect hate and get some love from Leslie and Mark.
I'm gettin' outta here while things are good and before the ass-kicking starts.

I don't even know what a Kay is

love you 2 grandpa

Paul Warburton · #15 02-23-2010, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsychoScout

I don't even know what a Kay is

Yer pretty, little, young, virginal ears are not ready for us to begin telling you the real truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsycoScoutarooni

love you 2 grandpa

me 2 U.....,,, cuz U nice gurl 2

EDIT: me gutta run fer it now.......water gud food gud fire bad

PsychoScout · #16 02-23-2010, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

Yer pretty, little, young, virginal ears are not ready for us to begin telling you the real truth.

ok, I'll stick to "deutsche grundlichkeit" then

just hope i'm not missing out on a wonderful xp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

me 2 U.....,,, cuz U nice gurl 2

hugz!!!!

Jeremy Darrow · #17 02-23-2010, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

I ain't gonna get alotta love on this but I've said it before here. IMO, Englehart basses are P's O S's. From the cheap glued on scroll volutes to the bottom of the line end-pins, pure crap.(IMO)
And future more, IMO, this whole pieces of "Americana" thing about Kay basses has gone from the strange and "mosied" into the bizarre.
If you want a dull sounding bass with little or no sustain when you pizz, I can dig it. I can understand why Bluegrass players go for that "thuddy" sound, because it's part of the music.

In jazz, with the three exceptions of Israel Crosby, Slam Stewart and Chubby Jackson on records, and in person I've never heard a Kay bass stand out. (IME). (a good reason to like them, I guess).
I asked Slam once why, besides the fact that he got them for free, he liked the Kays...he said because they sounded kind of dull and blended better with his voice than a carved bass.
Oh please, don't hate me too much.

Well Paul, I disagree; kind of. I've got an early Kay, I don't know the model, or year, the label was long gone when I got it. It is not just a good-sounding Kay, but it's a good sounding bass. That said, the bass had been carefully restored, refinished, received a terrific hand-me-down ebony fingerboard and who knows what else before I ever met it. After all that work and a great setup, this bass SINGS and records nicely. I've heard plenty of rotten, tubby sounding Kays, but this one is an example of what a Kay CAN sound like under the right circumstances.

RRunner · #18 02-23-2010, 12:28 PM

Ok, now I really don't know what to do. I just got off the phone with Gary Karr at Upton; who said he would build me a 5 string Standard for just alittle more than I can buy the Kay. I guess, I'm still hung up on th sight unplayed thing.

LouisF · #19 02-23-2010, 12:48 PM

If Gary Karr is answering phones at Upton, then the economy must really be bad! I think you might "the other" Gary who owns UB.

Paul - my only point above was that in my dealings with the Korean bass manufacturers who made the K61 - they were notorious for the inconsistency of construction. Some student basses would be fine (like one mentioned above) other would fall apart after year - so I stopped working with them. The Englharts - for all their sins - are consistent (perhaps too consistent).

Re Kays: all I remember is that we had them in high school and I hated them. There was a story about Ray Brown's "Kay" - that he went through the factory, maybe turning down 500 instruments before he found one he could live with. With all do respect to the Kay players, that sums it up for me.

Finally - OP - expanding horizonsin your budget - the Upton or the Thompson bass that the String Emporium sells. But if Gary is willing to discuss your satisfaction on a $1500 bass, I think that tells you something.

Louis

Paul Warburton · #20 02-23-2010, 03:14 PM

At the risk of confusing our OP even more....
I never said that I believed that there are no exceptions to my statements and all those were either IMO and/or IME.
As usual, pick your own poison....that bass that speaks to you and through you....I could care less what it may be made out of, by whom and from which country.
I sat in on one that we used to call "Pre-War Kays".....those real skinny, ugly things (IMO). Damn thing was so loud I thought it was amped. It still had no pizz sustain and I like as long a sustain as the laws of jazz bass playing allow without the amp.
We all have different histories with basses, but in my younger years these basses were considered material for jokes.
Nothing personal, no offense to Kay basses or those who choose to play them, IMO, IME YMMV and WRGAF.
Am I alright now?